11375 Fuel costs

What is the house size in sq mtrs, and are you thinking of 24hr winter heating?

140 sq m 24 hour seems rather a lot, but yes throughout the 3 winter months the CH system will certainly be running most of the time

As there are many variables to consider when surveying a property in order to specify / reccomend a heating system it would be impossible to quote costs for an individual property remotely.
But as a guideline, I hope this information will help.

In una abitazione di 200 metri quadrati, una caldaia da 30.000 kcal/ora (35 kw/h) brucia mediamente ogni ora:
3,52 litri di gasolio (8500 kcal/lt) x 1,110 euro/lt = 3,90 euro/ora.
3,61 m.cubi di metano (8300 kcal/m.c.) x 0.70 euro/m.c = 2,53 euro/ora
11,5 kg di legna (2600 kcal/kg) x 0,11 euro/kg = 1,27 euro/ora
8,57 kg di mais (3500kcal/kg) x 0,12 euro/kg = 1,03 euro/ora
7,14 kg di pellet (4200kcal/kg) x 0,20 euro/kg = 1,43 euro/ora

Considerando un funzionamento medio di 8 ore nell'arco della giornata otteniamo i seguenti costi in ordine di convenienza:
mais = 8,24 euro/giorno
legna = 10,16 euro/giorno
pellet = 11,44 euro/giorno
metano = 20,24 euro/giorno
gasolio = 31,20 euro/giorno
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Regards

[quote=redimp98;107704]140 sq m 24 hour seems rather a lot, but yes throughout the 3 winter months the CH system will certainly be running most of the time[/quote]
My GSHP, running underfloor heating and DHW in a house of similar size, has an output of 11Kw. It uses 2.2Kwh of electricity, therefore approx 0.55 cents per hour. Normal operating times in the winter months around 13hrs daily = E7. This is for full 24hr heating & DHW.

Thanks. What do GSHP, DHW, E7 mean ?

[quote=redimp98;107724]Thanks. What do GSHP, DHW, E7 mean ?[/quote]
GSHP= Ground Source Heat Pump
DHW = Domestic Hot Water
E7 = Euro 7.00 per day running cost

Having just checked the running hours from 03/11 to 05/01 we get an average of 9hrs per day, so Euro 4.95 daily.

Its very difficult to put an exact price on heating costs.To me it seems people spend a ridiculous amount on heating but thats because they heat to 20 degs and all day whereas I'd much rather have the heating on only morning and eve and keep the thermostat down nearer 15degs.

Personally I'd rather spend my money on other thing as long as our house isn't damp or cold.

unless you are elderly or disabled then even in the winter you can be active enough to avoid feeling cold?I cant imagine ever wanting to be inside when I'm in Italy even on a winter's day when you can work in the garden wearing only a t-shirt! If you are lucky!!And I know we dont get as much rain in Abruzzo as some other areas,

[quote=myabruzzohome;107740]Its very difficult to put an exact price on heating costs.To me it seems people spend a ridiculous amount on heating but thats because they heat to 20 degs and all day whereas I'd much rather have the heating on only morning and eve and keep the thermostat down nearer 15degs.

Personally I'd rather spend my money on other thing as long as our house isn't damp or cold.

unless you are elderly or disabled then even in the winter you can be active enough to avoid feeling cold?I cant imagine ever wanting to be inside when I'm in Italy even on a winter's day when you can work in the garden wearing only a t-shirt! If you are lucky!!And I know we dont get as much rain in Abruzzo as some other areas,[/quote]
I agree with your point in some respects, but with an underfloor heating system, it is better to keep to a fairly constant temperature and not exceed a return water flow temperature drop ( not room temperature ) in excess of 1.5C for example 6-7 hrs overnight, otherwise the energy you have saved has to be used to reheat the floor again. Radiators, not such a problem as a smaller surface area, but require input higher temperatures. Our system shuts down the heating when the external air temperature reaches 16C and this year the internal house sensor is set at 19C
Obviously it is everyone to their own comfort levels.

Price is obviously a big consideration but so is availability of the fuel.

A couple of winters ago, pellets were in short supply and the price went up dramatically for a short while and a few winters ago the metano mains gas was being turned off during the day due to shortages in some towns (e.g. Macerata).

Personally I would always choose wood & solar given a choice as at least I can see/touch it and both are in plentiful supply!

I have metano central heating (my house was already renovated) and I only turn it on when I want a bath or we're not going to be around to make it worth lighting the stufa.

Because access is difficult to my house in the old town, we burn tronchetti made of sawdust compressed by steam. It costs €3 for one 20kg box or €30 for a 250kg box. Great stuff and burns very clean and hot although more quickly than logs.

[quote=redimp98;107681]We have yet to decide on which type of heating system to use. A new caldaia a condensazione looks to be efficient. I assume the fuel is gas.

It would be useful to have a fuel cost comparison, as different people say different things (as usual). Would someone like to put in ascending order the following fuels, for a typical 2-bed medium size house in N. Italy (cheapest first). For Winter central heating and all-year hot water.
I think its...............1. Metano (mains gas) guessing at 1500 euro p.a.
2. Pellets 1600
3. Wood 2000
4. Propane 3000
5 Electric 3200
As for the actual heating costs, I have little idea.........

There are also various other pluses and minuses eg wood = inconvenient, cleaning, which are factors to be taken into account after the price comparisons.[/quote]

Why is it that people think about this last instead of insulating their houses to the maximum and each year having a good laugh as they put the energy prices up only to find yours has increased marginally. Think insulation first including the best windows and doors possible then you can worry about the heating.

Why don't you do as the Italians heat the house with stufas and use a gas boiler for hot water. No bloody good but cheap installation though!

Lotan's advice is very relevant as always on the subject of insulation. In fact you could heat a 240 sq mtr house with a 7Kw output GSHP. Based on the earlier figures of estimated other fuel costs, then you would be using 1.6Kwh of electricity. With these figures and running costs of 10 hrs per day in winter on average. 16kw x 0.25 cents is 4euro per day.
I would estimate for the 140sq mtrs in the initial post, normally insulated a 9Kw GSHP @ 2kwh, so therefore approx 5 euro per day.

Just as a comparison, I have attached a comment from a client of mine, who arrived in his 260 sq mtr renovated, normally insulated house a few days before New Year 2008.
To clarify on the comment, the client required an internal temperature of 21C + DHW @ 51C.

" I am very pleased with the pump performance so far, and delighted to
stay in a house which is comfortably warm in all rooms, all the time. I had assumed it would run slightly more economically while running at
reduced settings during the period the house is unoccupied.
But to have run 85 days for 540 E has cost just over 6 E per day, is
pretty impressive."

I have just reset the above pump as at the moment the house is not being used, internal temperature at 10C and DHW @ 35C. 7 Days running on those settings is 4 Hours, but it is complete frost protection.

Cost for the heating and DHW in my house here from beginning Nov to beginning of Jan approx 300 Euros.

Hope this helps a little more with cost comparisons.

Enel has just changed its rates for users on the D3 daily rate. Basically, if you are on a +3Kw contract then these rates apply as from Jan 1st 2009.

All are plus the Imposte(D) figures and IVA@ 10%, but I have just taken the basic rates.

0-1800Kw per year @ 0.14888 cents per kw ............ allowed approx 5kw per day.
1801-2640kw@ 0.16796 cents per kw ......................approx 2.3 kw per day
2641-4440kw@ 0.21674 cents per kw ......................approx 5kw per day
+ 4440 Kw @ 0.27823 cents per Kw ........................unlimited

They have also increased their per Kw supplied charge from 1.1513 per kw to 1.1815 per Kw, and the basic supply from 3.0092 Euro to 3.6328 Euro per month

[quote=Geotherm;108795]

To clarify on the comment, the client required an internal temperature of 21C + DHW @ 51C.

Geotherm,

I am a little concerned with the temperature of your DHW 51ºc: does this temperature eliminate the risk of legionnaires' desease?? Or....??

[quote=lotan4850;110781][quote=Geotherm;108795]

To clarify on the comment, the client required an internal temperature of 21C + DHW @ 51C.

Geotherm,

I am a little concerned with the temperature of your DHW 51ºc: does this temperature eliminate the risk of legionnaires' desease?? Or....??[/quote]
Hi Lotan.
That problem is eliminated, by a peak heat setting, which boosts the temperature at set intervals to over 70C.This can be programmed in weekly, twice monthly or monthly as required.
Legionnaires Bacteria breeds at 25-45C so temperatures above this prevent the occurance.

Just to clarify, Legionella can exist in a wide range of temparatures from freezing upwards of 60C. I am not sure what the optimal growth temparatures are the temparatures mentioned above are probably quite accurate. Legionella can quickly return and I would recommend regular peak heat settings in excess of 60C.

MBH
optimal growth temperature is circa 37C , bacteria are killed at +60C, but keeping a system at 50+ stops the breeding cycle occurring. The temperature boost is to eradicate any possibility. If the water temperature is kept at a constant + 50C then there would be no likelihood of the bacteria infecting it.
Pool showers are a different matter, as they can breed the bacteria in the pipes.