11289 Minimum wage

I see from [url=http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/emire/ITALY/MINIMUMWAGE-IT.htm]EMIRE: ITALY - MINIMUM WAGE[/url] there isn't a minimum wage set in Italy,

That is quite right - to date there is no minimum wage legislation set in Italy. I'm not sure how much longer they can get away with it though...

[URL="http://www.quartafasegrosseto.it/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/p4.pdf"][B]>This<[/B][/URL] was published just a week before the elections last April and speaks of a 'possible' €1100 pm minimum [U]BEFORE[/U] stoppages for tax, SSN etc...

You note that I only said it '[I]speaks[/I]' of such things. The average Italian and trade union would love such legislation, but alas the back street employers (not the CONFINDUSTRIA - though they're not totally adverse to keeping wages low either!) are another matter alltogether! They will continue to pay the lowest possible wages, and where possible 'in nero', for as long as they can get away with it. I know of young people who are paid €10 for an 8 hour day (€0.80c - £0.76 [B][U]per hour[/U][/B]) for assmbling electronic components in a small facrory outside Milano. They have NO rights, and work is on an '[I]as and when[/I]' basis! So [I]they're [/I]always on a hiding to nothing while their employers [I][U]laugh all the way to the bank! [/U][/I]

If we start to explore what Italians are paid, I think we will be touching upon the Thread "What I hate about Italy". It is often shaming.

I wonder if there should then also be a thread entitled "What We Like About The UK"

That's interesting and appalling Carole. Do you think 'name and shame' would work? If you know about the situation why aren't the unions doing something about it, or even the Guardia di Finanza? €10 probably wouldn't cover costs of getting to work, lunch, work clothes etc!

[quote=sueflauto;106843]That's interesting and appalling Carole. Do you think 'name and shame' would work? If you know about the situation why aren't the unions doing something about it, or even the Guardia di Finanza? €10 probably wouldn't cover costs of getting to work, lunch, work clothes etc![/quote]

Basically - as I understand it - those who are offered work on a daily basis have been 'warned' that if any 'authorities' are told about the situation then 'they' will just up sticks and move somewhere else overnight. The two young people that I know (personally) are both Italians and desperately need even €10 per day to help thier family finances. Neither are really well educated - no diplomas or suchlike. They live in two different, very small villages about 11km from Milano. This capanone (shed) where the work is done is in the countryside within easy walking distance for them. I am certain that desperation and hunger drives them to keep thier mouths shut. €10 is better than €0... [I][U]their[/U][/I] words....

Of course I found it very hard not to sound off about the illegalities of the way they were being treated - but I had to honour their pleas to just 'keep out of it'! But having said that - don't think it doesn't break my heart to know that such situations are just the tip of the iceberg here....

the unions to some degree are positively involved in the low wage area... as they run closed shops with quite large contributions required from employees into their coffers and no person allowed to get a job without union membership... there will be laws that say this isn't so... but in general its the way it happens...

also the COOP system here is very abused ... noticed another thread about this... and didn't want to comment because it was basically about shopping... hoverer COOPS here are used as a way of setting up an employment agency... good examples are to be found in the health system...where say ancillary staff are now employed under private contracts... these are generally handed out to COOPs ... who under the pretense of using their coop members as workers pay exceedingly low wages... and bag the difference between what they charge and what the workers get as tax free income.. COOPs are used everywhere in Italy and what should have been a good system of workers being part of something ... however this corrupted version is basically a way of introducing virtual slave labour and as carol clearly points out dangerous to go up against...both in a physical sense and any prospect of work at whatever level.... and is carried out in full view of the police in any case as where the crew buses stop to do pick ups is well known in any town to city here and when permission controls are called for because of some violent incident here... they just have to wait in those places the next morning or evening to pick up a few workers without permits...

very much accepted here is the fact that people do at least 2 if not 3 jobs to make ends meet and this extends into areas where elsewhere in the world it might not be thought necessary...i have seen working doctors interviewed who also do shifts in bars to try and make ends meet...

now the thing is that from the above one might consider that most Italians will not survive the month... and officially this is so... however because of the restricted wages, the restrictions on progressive employment or running any business most of Italy runs at two levels ... looking after supposedly disabled relatives is a very big earner... and i have seen a family where we lived at one stage maintain a very high standard of living with one single male wage earner...doing a pretty low paid work ... and never at work weekends ... or evenings.. unlike most families we know... all based on two elderly parents from one generation, a widowed parent disabled but not really, and an unemployed parent, disabled too... their main activity was the weekly doctors visit to pick up scripts and sign continuing paperwork for claims... in between a very active life in the orto which would have put many younger people to shame... and which neighbour although maybe not as well set up with relatives could denounce them when they are all at it in any case....to some degree or another... the only ones that do get denounced are foreigners... cause they do not know enough to be a threat in the contra - denouncing wars that sometimes take place in these small villages..

this system is also used in people registering as farmers and grants..... and so on and so forth.. and what you find then in a large number of cases is that people lead lives here way beyond incomes... and expecting the finance police to do anything would be to find that virtually the whole of italy and its population would be behind bars... also you have to take that joining any of the police forces is regarded here as the elite of all occupations... not carbineri.... however to get this occupation you pass an exam...which many take and pass ...however to get into the school/university this doesnt count at all... its a question of recommendation... this can take the form of just being in the right family or say building someone a new house for not a lot... so why on earth would these guardians of the finance want to upset a system that basically they got their jobs through...

a nightmare... and one which never really gets solved here... and the worse off just keep getting worse off...... unless of course they leave .. but even that has gotten harder to do...

This subject breaks my heart. I see so many young educated Italians working for next to nothing and they have no hope of ever finding a permanent job. My cousin's daughter is a psychologist in Le Marche. There has never been an opening that she could apply for and so she is part of a Co op working with immigrants and her local community's mentally ill. Pay 10 euros an hour. If she had a permanent position it would be at least 3 times this amount. It is much cheaper for the healthservice to use a Co op. Few young Italians are prepared to leave Italy and their families, so are therefore, prepared to put up with things as they are.

Fascinating thread. Thanks to all who have contributed.

A related issue that I've frequently thought about is precisely how much many shopkeepers and their families make from their family businesses. One of the great joys of Italy is that small villages have a number and a variety of shops which is now unimaginable in rural Britain. But when I try to guess their profits (using an estimation of turnover and the prices in the local cash-and-carries), I come up with figures which would be utterly unacceptable to most people in the UK, particularly when several family members are often involved and sharing the income from the business.

Which troubles me even further on the frequent occasions when I don't patronise the local shops and use much cheaper supermarkets instead!

Once again, I can only speak from personal, local knowledge on this question of profitability of small local shops/businesses.

I know, and have several friends who own such shops in small villages and towns. The same situation doesn't 'appear' to be the case in larger towns or cities, so my comments do NOT include such situations.

I can think of four shops in my village which obviously MUST struggle as far as being profitable goes. All four are situated at street level with a house or apartment attached. They are typical of the system of 'small shopkeepers' in this part of Italy. The house/apartment is often home to either siblings of the shop owner [U]or[/U] their children. It, or the land it is built on, has often been 'in the family' for a long time (sometimes 3 or 4 centuries).

Several families will live in these. They are often purpose built to house several family groups independently. As an example - one family household in my village (now friends of mine) is housed in a building containing:
[B]Ground floor: [/B]
One shop selling wedding gifts, general household cleaning products, writing materials.
One triple garage + laundry room for family use.
Parking for family and customers.
[B]First/second Floors:[/B]
Two independent two bedroom apartments.

These are occupied by two sisters and their families, and here lies the secret...
One sister runs the shop, with help from all other family members when they are available.
Sister no.2 works in the office of a local factory.
Both husbands have independent work - one is a plumber, the other has a small courier (van) business.
Between them there are three children (2 boys, 1 girl) - two still at school, the third at university.

Now [I][U]all[/U][/I] of these other members help out in the shop when needed. Every evening one of them covers when the meals are prepared. So there are, in effect, FOUR salaries coming into the family - exactly 'how' they divide it I don't know... but they do. But I DO know that a % of all their earnings is being put away to fund the building of houses for the children (on a piece of land adjacent to their shop/house property) when the time arrives.[B][U] If[/U][/B] they run their finances as many familes used to (and some still do), then all income goes into 'the pot' - so much is put aside for weddings, dowry's, house building etc. and the remainder is for common use. Perhaps [I]this[/I] is the secret of the close knit family situations which we still see quite often in Italy's rural areas, and the reason why many families manage to survive in such a bad finacial situation. Two families contribute and so each, in their turn, will get that new car, new coat, holiday or any other necessities!

Can't imagine (these days) that such a system would either work, or be acceptable in the UK - what do you think?

Even if buying at supermarkets may be faster and more convenient, I always make the point of buying a certain amount of our needs in the smaller local shops. There are always things that you can identify as more convenient. And this helps to pay salaries in your local area and keeps small businesses going.

[quote=Carole B;106864]Of course I found it very hard not to sound off about the illegalities of the way they were being treated - but I had to honour their pleas to just 'keep out of it'! But having said that - don't think it doesn't break my heart to know that such situations are just the tip of the iceberg here....[/quote]

I think I've read enough of your posts to know you must find it -very- hard. I'm feeling the pinch at the moment but I could certainly afford €10 a week towards helping someone tell an exploitative employer to 'gie boil yeir heed'. If I get some more teaching work I could afford more. But I've always tried to check with existing workers what they get to avoid undercutting any local market. People who have never been in a union would do well to ponder why they exist. Solicitors, barristers and similar closed shop professions already know the benefits.:bigergrin:

Carole, the same family run business system happens in small towns around Spain and I think that I would at least add France to the list, particularly in certain regions and far away from the main centres. I think that it has to do with the strength of family life. They all work and do things for the good of the whole family. It is certainly a philosophy, but I am afraid that it can go into the list of "endangered species".

I tend to agree with the view of these businesses becoming an endangered species in the UK...............Since living in Italy, I am stunned at how seemingly successful this is...............their horizins COULD be deemed to be limited, but take me back there anytime............caring, considerate, friendly, helpful, not into things just for themselves..............my word.................yes please !! Support them all I say !

Our village has a Sidis Supermarket. It opens 6 days a week and Sunday mornings. The owner and his wife, in their early 50's, had it purpose built with a flat for them above. The daughter's boyfriend has a degree but works in the shop and when the daughter has her degree, she too will work there. Why? The answer was surprisingly bitter. ....Because say the young graduates...we are not working for next to nothing, in a job (if we can ever find one) that is not permanent, where we are paid low wages to work long hours and where we will be told, if we don't like it move over because others will want the work.
The Sidis price's are of course higher than the big supermarkets in the town below but the owners are very enterprising. They pay paricular attention to what foreigners want to buy. There's an outstanding wine section and if a foreign customer with a holiday house locally, arrives in the village and the shop is closed, they ring the bell and they can shop til they drop! The willingness to serve and offer a service in every sense of the word, keeps these people in business and it seems very successful too.

To be honest I find the whole economical situation in Abruzzo a total mystery. In the small town where our house is pensioners with no visible income live in 3 storey palaces and eat the sort of fresh quality food that uk pensioners can only dream of.

Local towns that would be home to a few 'poundshops' and building societies are full of boutique shops where Guicci sunglasses and children's sandals costing several hundred euros can be purchased.

Most familes seem to be able to eat out at restuarants at least once a week if not more.

The income is not being earnt from employment ( and I am certainly not doubting any of the info on local wages already quoted) so how is it come by? I would say that everyone is maxiing out their credit cards but I don't think that Italians do that to the same degree as Brits?

I have family in the Abruzzo who are retired. If you have worked the time necessary (less than in the UK), Pensions are higher than in the UK for a start. If you had a job and were laid off for some reason, but you met the requirements for dole money, the payment seemed to again be higher than in the UK.

My father-in-law is a retired teacher, and his pension is the same as his final salary was, which means he takes home more, as he no longer has to pay social insurance. He is 76 and has been retired for nearly 20 years. My mother-in-law worked for about 15 years as a health visitor, then was able to retire on a small pension. They have more money than they know what to do with.

Of course it's all changing now, and pensions will never be as good again.

There are minimum wages in Italy. Contracts are defined nationally, a Class 4 employee - such as a secretary has a minimum contractual wage of about 1300 euors per month for a 40 hour week. Then there is the tredicesimo, an the quattordicesimo to add, sickness benefits and 26 days holidays plus national festas. Of course, these are negotiated down by employers, and there is huge fiscal evasion - such as declaring a part time contract for a full time worker, but the principal of a minimum exists. As far as shops go - there is greater fiscal evasion, when you think that the average bar declares a gross income of about 6000 a year and a chemist about the same, the whole legal situation regarding retention of receipts and controlling your cashtill becomes ridiculous. On top of that you have to bear in mind that Italians are savers not spenders, and the entire family contributes to the pot.

[quote=ram;107925]There are minimum wages in Italy. Contracts are defined nationally, a Class 4 employee - such as a secretary has a minimum contractual wage of about 1300 euors per month for a 40 hour week. Then there is the tredicesimo, an the quattordicesimo to add, sickness benefits and 26 days holidays plus national festas. Of course, these are negotiated down by employers, and there is huge fiscal evasion - such as declaring a part time contract for a full time worker, but the principal of a minimum exists. [/quote]

We calculated that as a freelance professional with vat number, you have to take that 1300 euro/month net and multiplicate by 2,5 to get your needed gross monthly invoiced amount in order to have the same living standard/benefits as an employed worker.
No need to say that if people get a permanent employment contract, they stick to it.