In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Although I've been a vegetarian for 26 years I'm not against people eating wild game as I would rather you eat a creature thats had some sort of life than a factory farmed bird HOWEVER it is well recorded that hunters in Italy regulary shoot large numbers of songbirds which are protected in most european states.
While habit loss is a far greater risk to birdlife generally the indescriminate shooting and trapping of songbirds in Italy leads to a general disrespect for nature and wildlife which is contary to the protection and valuing of the wider environment.
If you want to try wild game shot it yourself and only in the quantity you can eat or store.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Isn't it the French that love roast starlings???
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Yes, and the Spaniards also eat all sorts of birds. I really can't. I think that quail would be my limit.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
removed.........................
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
It is true what Nielo says and if we look in depth at the Italian cuisine in general, we will find that many of the basic dishes are made with simple ingredients and whatever they have at hand, including all types of birds. Chestnuts and chesnut flour, farro, polenta, rice and whichever vegetable they could gather were supplemented by birds, rabbits, fish and whatever they could catch and would add some protein. Those were very lean times for the majority of Italians and they had to apply their ingenuity to be able to offer a balanced diet. Before the discovery of America and the arrival of such staples as potatoes, tomatoes, capsicum, corn their diets must have been very restricted. Only the rich and powerful could afford elaborated dishes with expensive ingredients. This also explains the obsession the Italians have about having copious meals at the time of any celebration. It is like showing off family and friends that they can eat a large variety of foods. It may be a subliminal reaction, but it clearly sends a message.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
without wishing to offend and maybe to open up the argument a bit more... for one its illegal to eat these birds or hunt them here and there are very stiff fines for those that are caught...well unless you are eating them with the local law enforcement officers...
its not that its really a vast concern of mine... i do not wish to curtail any long lived practices anywhere...and would no doubt participate if i had been invited to a meal and they were served up...
my main point is to do with a sort of Anglo Saxonism view of the world as being poor and uncivilised before the great American diet came along... it seems to me that some of the greater civilisations in the world were doing extremely well in terms of food and hygiene before the "west" took over...
native americans being a good example... living a life not easy ...but bountiful until the great white hunters decided they needed to tame the land, wear the buffalo skins and Christianise these savages.....hence a nomadic lifestyle based on living with nature and being supplied by nature destroyed in the name of wealth and prosperity.... and for who...
much the same happened wherever areas were colonised ... we have aboriginal problems... and countries throughout Africa where instead of food they now produce very good wine... or dig up land for diamonds and oil....
what makes me smile the more is the concept that Italians were poorer than their European counterparts in the northern isles of the UK... when they had more food,better diets and longer lives and indeed better sanitary conditions... its to my mind an oft held view generally applied to people that live differently and stems from again to my mind a complete lack of perception as regards UK poverty,dirt and filth best depicted by say someone like Dickens...
its not long since UK houses even had bathrooms installed and if you happened to live in the countryside and not in the town very little time ago many of the things eaten by locals were very much what is eaten here...obviously with climatic differences other forms of grown food... but basically the same....
that many countries ..especially the UK... not say for instance Ireland ...lost their way to my mind... with huge land owners turning the countryside into a factory and using chemicals to wipe off the face of the earth many of the local species says a lot to recommend to my mind the Mediterranean way of life which i generally think has little to do with dire poverty but more to do with a perception of putting into your body something that's actually got taste and is good for you... if to be found for free in the wild why pay for it... there's not many of us from outside here could even be sure how to kill an animal that we have grown ...far less to wander the fields and pick a weed to eat....
Italy is somewhere quite high up in industrial productive countries in the world... with an income to match... it was doing well before the war and was very inventive.... 80 % of Italians own the house they live in... the amount of huge expensive cars here would not go amiss in Kensington or Chelsea...
that many left this country after the war is a blimp within history... they basically lost and were punished ...
anyway my views... most probably not quite in line with many...and maybe not totally factually correct... but poverty and how its measured and this version of the worlds civilisations being better or worse off in our perceptions is to my mind often based on interventions from so called modern societies and more often than not with the church in the christian sense often more to blame for altering long lived practices that made most of the starvation that goes on now unheard of before...
we have a lot to learn still i think... luckily for me Italy still retains some of its traditional practices and love of its own produce....
ghianda...sorry to wander off subject... in a sense i would say not far...
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
as I said previously I am very much in favour of people eating what is found locally so agree with most if not all of the above.
As an example took my dog for a walk in woods on Sunday as temps here were 10 degs rather than minus 10 and I had an idea that the oyster mushrooms would have sprouted (freeze followed by a thaw makes them fruit) sure enough 'my' tree was covered in new mushrooms which I picked a [I]handful[/I] of. I would not pick every mushroom on the tree ( similar reasons as the buffalo hunts described above) .I've got to know everywhere that different types of fungi grow as well as wild greens and herbs so am a great advocat for Italian attitutes to foraging and hunting locally.
My objections to [I]indescriminate hunting[/I] is that because of loss of habitat and pollution many types of birds are now actually threatened with extinction so it makes sense not to shoot them.
Where we have huge numbers ( for example of pheasants ) of wild animals not threatened with extinction then it makes sense for people to harvest that resourse.
Also where hunters can create or sustain a habitat that is protected and where birds can build up good populations there may be a case for some harvesting to take place.
I may not be looking in the right places but I don't see any evidence that this is taking place anywhere in Italy at the moment.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Now we are in season aren't Robins supposed to be popular to eat in Italy?
Can't see there being much meat on one myself.
Probably makes a quail seem like a turkey in conparison! :bigergrin:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=Nielo;107856]
Anyway, apparently it is good in a pasta sauce and very easy to catch, when the weather is very cold, because they often get their beaks frozen stuck when they fall asleep.
[/quote]
Hmm, Neilo - these old men in the bar - are you sure they weren't doing what old men in bars often do - teasing the young'uns...?
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=adriatica;107886]without wishing to offend and maybe to open up the argument a bit more... for [I]one its illegal to eat these birds or hunt them here[/I] and there are very stiff fines for those that are caught...well unless you are eating them with the local law enforcement officers...
ghianda...sorry to wander off subject... in a sense i would say not far...[/quote]
Adriatica, apology accepted, but even by your own standards you have taken a quite a wander into the woods this time. Still at least self awareness and recognition can give us the hope that you may stay more focussed in the future! :no:
The point of my reply though is to say that as far as Tuscany is concerned it is [B]not illegal, [/B]in season, to hunt the two birds to which I referred when starting the thread. The following quotes are taken from Hunting sites. I have not included links, because there are photos of dead hunted animals next to the text.
[B]I would never incite someone to break the law -[/B] even if I did hunt, which I don't.:Dancing_furious:
"Tre nuove specie di uccelli potranno essere cacciate nella preapertura della stagione venatoria in Toscana: la cornacchia grigia, la gazza e [B]la ghiandaia[/B] che arrecano danni all’agricoltura." (VerdiToscana.it 24/7/08)
La caccia vagante e’ da noi scarsamente praticata in quanto poco redditizia, salvo i [B]primi periodi dell’apertura[/B] ove vi sia abbondanza di giovani soggetti. Il nord d’Italia infatti e’ zona di grandi migrazioni, ma scarsamente idonea alla sosta prolungata delle specie. [B]In questa forma di caccia il merlo[/B] spesse volte riesce a beffare l’uomo, lo fa partendo da una siepe, da una riva, dalla vegetazione del fosso, riuscendo subito a frapporre l’ostacolo naturale tra se’ ed il fucile; le tecniche sono diverse a seconda della localita’, presuppongono pero’ tutte ottima conoscenza del luogo e prontezza di tiro. (Ilcacciatore.com 11/5/07)
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I don't agree with you adriatica with regard to Italian peasants' historical standard of living. They had to put up with the mezzadria system, and malaria, and I think you'll find the major emigrations took place pre-Mussolini. I would suggest [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pietros-Book-Story-Tuscan-Peasant/dp/1841197300/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231781157&sr=1-1]Pietro's Book: The Story of a Tuscan Peasant: Pietro Pinti, Jenny Bawtree: Amazon.co.uk: Books[/url] as an illustration of just how impoverished the peasantry always was
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Yes robins are [I]very popular.[/I]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Oh don't be so squeamish - you aint lived til you've had a couple of Robins on toast. I use their leg bones as toothpicks! :bigergrin:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
And like polenta used to be a slightly shameful peasant food .......
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
It still is - only fit for those "oop North". :bigergrin:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=juliancoll;107964]It still is - only fit for those "oop North". :bigergrin:[/quote]
Yeah - right!
You're very brave today...
[IMG]http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smiley-lynch-mob.gif[/IMG]
Wanna come up here and say that? [IMG]http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/thumbnail2/784_smiley_boxer_punching.gif[/IMG]
:bigergrin:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=annec;107903]I don't agree with you adriatica with regard to Italian peasants' historical standard of living. They had to put up with the mezzadria system, and malaria, and I think you'll find the major emigrations took place pre-Mussolini.[/quote]
I'm interested in traditional music (of all sorts) although my main knowledge/interest is English, but I was reading a review of a CD of Italian traditional music the other day which talked about agricultural workers spending months going down to Argentina to work two harvests in one year. Similarly if you read about work in the risaie you'll realise how hard life was (there were some great songs sung by the women though!).
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=Carole B;107990]Yeah - right!
You're very brave today...
[IMG]http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smiley-lynch-mob.gif[/IMG]
Wanna come up here and say that? [IMG]http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/thumbnail2/784_smiley_boxer_punching.gif[/IMG][/quote]
Oi, polentoni - vieni qua! :bigergrin:
[ATTACH]2345[/ATTACH]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
It is true that conditions were so difficult in Italy that peasants used to come to Argentina to work during the summer there. Also, there were people from coastal towns coming to work as lifesavers or in the maintenance of beaches, etc. That was when Argentina was a very rich country and unemployment was not an issue, on the contrary. Many Italians who started coming as part-time labourers remained there and brought their families with them as living conditions were much better in Argentina at the time. They also brought their cuisine, excellent pasta making and pizza. And also polenta.... which was always considered food for the poorest people. How wrong! It can be delicious and it is widely used in top restaurants around the world.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=adriatica;107886]without wishing to offend and maybe to open up the argument a bit more... [B]for one its illegal to eat these birds or hunt them [I][U]here[/U][/I][/B] and there are very stiff fines for those that are caught...well unless you are eating them with the local law enforcement officers...
ghianda...sorryto wander off subject... in a sense i would say not far...[/quote]
[I]Adriatica [/I]In a previous reply I have already shown that your statement in bold is incorrect as far as Tuscany is concerned.
The following link gives the dates during which the two species of bird (Merlo and Ghiandaia) can be legally hunted in Abruzzo which I believe is where you are based. [URL]http://www.regione.abruzzo.it/pesca/2008/Cal_ven_2008_9_Abruzzo.pdf[/URL]
This leaves me... puzzled... as to where ... the "here" is... to which you refer... ... ...:veryconfused::veryconfused::veryconfused:
I've had blackbirds - against my will but didn't want to offend father-in-law.They didn't strike me as particularly special, not a whole lot of meat on them of course, and fiddly with the bones, but it might be my opinion that eating birds we leave food out for in our gardens in the UK is fundamentally wrong that tainted the experience?!