11467 Members Bill of Rights

[quote=Lisa C.;108627]We have rules for Forum postings that we all are expected to adhere to. How about one for the administration as well? I would like to see them create a Members Bill of Rights as a sticky where we will have our rights spelled out: ie.:

1. Advance notice of Forum upgrades ____ days in advance when there will be no access.

2. When we can expect a response to our administration questions and by whom? i.e. I have asked several times when our wiki site will be up and running so we can create an artist/artisan guide and have yet to hear back from admin.

I have posted several times on the Forum to both Ronald and Cristiana as well as sent private e-mails when possible. Often, Ronald's is completely full and I have elected to then post a message on his personal page, still to no avail.[/quote]

Lisa, don't feel too badly. Quite a few of us have suffered a similar fate over the last year or so - being ignored I mean...

It would seem that unless you make a [I]habit[/I] of continuously moaning about everything and everyone, and bombard Admin and Mods with zillions of PM's then you WILL be, if not 'ignored', at least left at the bottom of the pile of 'People To Answer'...

We are, after all, only a group of inconsequential members on Italy Magazine - at best to be tolerated and at worst (as now) to be ignored... Nothing new - (alas) you'll get used to it!

#1. You have the right to remain silent
#2. see #1
:laughs:

Hi Lisa C.

Have also suffered the same fate - no replies to emails and PM's. I have given up ever receiving an email from Admin.
Have also sent emails direct to Peter Shaw at main mag. and am ignored there too and this was for a commercial issue.
I suppose we are a necessary nuisance - we drive up the web hit numbers for advertising data and we provide an almost inexhaustable supply of information, advice, ec. to other posters who could then go on to buy the mag, take out advertsing etc. etc.
So as long as we behave and give as much as we are able (all free of charge) we are tolerated. Our litle 'games', 'feuds', 'cliques' and amusements just season the mix.

I'm with you on all of that LisaC - makes good advice too for anyone else out there who runs or is maybe setting up a forum. :wideeyed:

Well, according to my forum clock, it is 10.43am and I see that there is at least ONE [B]'Princeps Senatus'[/B] on line at the moment....

BUT I also see this (below) - 11 members, but only SEVEN showing. Maybe we are about to receive some form of acknowledgement. But then again - why change the habits of a lifetime? Best not hold our breath - right?

[URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/online.php"]Currently Active Users[/URL]: 46 ([SIZE=4][COLOR=Red][B]11 members[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE] and 35 guests) [URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/online.php"][IMG]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/images/italymag/misc/whos_online.gif[/IMG][/URL] Most users ever online was 420, 16-06-07 at 03:53 PM.
[URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/members/carole-b.html"]Carole B[/URL] , [URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/members/alan-h.html"]alan h[/URL] , [URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/members/angeldimana.html"]AngelDiMana[/URL] , [URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/members/angie-and-robert.html"]Angie and Robert[/URL] , [URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/members/annec.html"]annec[/URL] , [URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/members/castelforte.html"]castelforte[/URL] , [URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/members/cristiana.html"]Cristiana[/URL]

You are all absolutely right - it is not so much a question of not caring but rather of having so many demands placed on time that some things take a back seat. Talk is cheap and actions count so let us just say that wiki should be up soon.

As for updating - the whole idea of doing it during Christmas was precisely because most people don't visit the website during that period and as I said before the hope was that the frequent users would appreciate the fact that the forums were down for just one day and then most problems fixed between Christmas and New Years!

And while a more formal announcement will come - we will be updating the forum software once again - not our fault this time. There is a new version out and it should make the Group experience better.

[quote=Carole B;108667]

BUT I also see this (below) - 11 members, but only SEVEN showing. Maybe we are about to receive some form of acknowledgement. But then again - why change the habits of a lifetime? Best not hold our breath - right?

[/quote]

Members can choose to not advertise the fact that they are online - so what that number is telling you is that there are 11 members online of which 4 have decided not to let others know that they are online.

[COLOR="red"] it should make the Group experience better.[/COLOR]

Ronald Hi, I raised this in a thread recently. I tried to post in the Pets Corner as a member but because I'm on Nielo's Ignore List, my interesting post wasn't published.

Is there a way 'round this???

One other question. What was the problem on Sunday when all day we were all getting error messages ' Sorry the webserver is too busy. Please come back later" or words to that effect???

[quote=ronald;108678]Members can choose to not advertise the fact that they are online - so what that number is telling you is that there are 11 members online of which 4 have decided not to let others know that they are online.[/quote]

Of course I realise that Ronald - :rollingeyes: !!!

But I do suspect that, at times, [I]some[/I] of those who choose not to be seen are in fact either Admin or Moderators who are trying [U]not[/U] to be involved in any major OR minor 'spats' or 'issues' (like this one) that may be current at the time...

Oh, and thank you for your acknowledgement in the post above.

[quote=ronald;108677]You are all absolutely right - it is not so much a question of not caring but rather of having so many demands placed on time that some things take a back seat. Talk is cheap and actions count so let us just say that wiki should be up soon.

As for updating - the whole idea of doing it during Christmas was precisely because most people don't visit the website during that period and as I said before the hope was that the frequent users would appreciate the fact that the forums were down for just one day and then most problems fixed between Christmas and New Years!

And while a more formal announcement will come - we will be updating the forum software once again - not our fault this time. There is a new version out and it should make the Group experience better.[/quote]

Ronald,

Thank you for responding to my concerns. I am happy to hear that wiki will be up and running soon. Perhaps, when time allows, administration, moderators and the "Under the Radar Group" could come up with a working document that spells out the Members Bill of Rights so we that we can have more open communication and not feel that our concerns have gone into the black hole.

Sincerely,

Lisa

While we are being noticed………..

Ronald, I have asked several times privately but received no response. please can you tell me whether there is a High Visibility option available and what the forum policy is on disability discrimination?

I am still looking forward to new smilies and the page width not being larger than the screen width.:bigergrin:

Members bill of rights

1. The right to have advanced notice of planned changes to the forum
2. The right to be notified if any members posts are to be used in the magazine.
3. The right to have pms/emails to Admin answered within a reasonable time
4. The right to have an explanation of the reason for any modification or deletion of members posts
5. The right of appeal against actions taken by administration
6. The right to post openly if any of these rights have been denied.
7. The right to an acknowledgement for reported posts

Really I think all members want is to be treated with the same respect demanded of members in the forum rules.

Oh and it would be nice to have a clock that showed the correct time.

This may be an unpopular point of view but the maxim on the internet generally is "You get what you pay for". As we are all free members on the forum, a response to questions should be appreciated but not demanded. Time available to administrators dictates that it would be impossible to answer all the communications a forum generates especially the he said she said type of complaints.

Perhaps the solution would be a two tier membership whereby for a monthly subscription fee you would be guaranteed to have your queries answered??

Any takers?:eerr:

I belong to several other forums and they seem to manage to answer queries and notify members of changes etc. All of them are free and some have volunteer (unpaid) administrators. If they can manage it why not Italy Mag?

I partly agree with patch2277, but Nielo's request No.1 - to be notified when the site will be out for maintenance - means the admin make one public post - hardly time-consuming. No.2 is common courtesy (apart from avoiding any copyright problems). Nos. 3 ,4 and 5 do require (possibly excessively demanding) action by the admin. No. 6 - well I reckon the admin should be able to live with that one, and No. 7 - surely that could be automated.

[COLOR="red"]Perhaps the solution would be a two tier membership whereby for a monthly subscription fee you would be guaranteed to have your queries answered??[/COLOR]

It has been discussed at length already and having a two tier membership increases the workload for Admin.

Whet other Forums are two tiered, out of interest??

[quote=patch2277;108705]This may be an unpopular point of view but the maxim on the internet generally is "You get what you pay for". As we are all free members on the forum, a response to questions should be appreciated but not demanded. Time available to administrators dictates that it would be impossible to answer all the communications a forum generates especially the he said she said type of complaints.

Perhaps the solution would be a two tier membership whereby for a monthly subscription fee you would be guaranteed to have your queries answered??

Any takers?:eerr:[/quote]

There is another 'maxim', if you are going to do something/anything, then do it properly. I would not pay for a two tier system.

[quote=Persephone;108710]There is another 'maxim', if you are going to do something/anything, then do it properly. I would not pay for a two tier system.[/quote]

I agree with you on this Persephone.

Sally, to answer your question, Expats in Italy does have a 2 tiered system, although I wouldn't subscribe as I think it is out of line to expect to pay to be able to pm members privately. Here is how they operate:

Membership
Expatsinitaly.com and ExpatTalk.com message board are supported by their users. Anyone can read and search the message board, but you must register (free) to post messages.

A few of the more advanced message board and site features are limited to paid members or volunteers:

private messaging (private conversation between members)
instant notification of messages
email digests (have the latest posts emailed to you each day)
access to our chat room
your own expatsinitaly email account
your own blog hosted by expatsinitaly
access to downloadable files like our shopping guide and our driving signs
In the not so distant future, membership will also include access to e-books and fee based sections of the site.

How to Become a Member
Our message board is set up to take payments so if you would like to pay using your credit card you can do so by going to [url=http://expattalk.com/eve/thrive]Expats in Italy Forum Premium Memberships - Powered by eve community[/url]

We have three membership levels:

Silver Member: $25/year gives you access to Private Messages, Notifications, Email Digests and Chat

Gold Member: $50/year gives you access to Private Messages, Notifications, Email Digests, Chat, downloads, Blog hosted by expatsinitaly.com and an expatsinitaly.com email account.

Platinum Member: $100/year has all of the benefits of Gold membership as well as personal assistance via phone, email and fax. More personalized assistance as in house searching, attending appointments for documents etc. can be arranged at a per hour rate. Only Platinum members can use our relocation services.

How to Become a Volunteer
You can see what the current needs are on our Volunteer page.

Personally, aren't we a valuable asset to Italy Magazine? Without all of us as active members, would there be any advertisers? It seems to me that we need each other.

Lisa:yes:

"Personally, aren't we a valuable asset to Italy Magazine? Without all of us as active members, would there be any advertisers? It seems to me that we need each other."

On the whole yes Lisa!!! lol

We are a 'social networking site'. An internet 'community'. A 'chat room'. Call it what you will, but if you have FIRST class, SECOND class and CATTLE class, it will not be fun, interesting or compelling.

And, in providing what are essentially BASIC forum services, it is not unreasonable to expect a BASIC level of business service for free.

I cant believe I haven't posted in this thread - see how good I'm being Ronni? :bigergrin:

What would happen if the members got fed up and started posting very polite rubbish?

“ to obtain a codice fiscale, you must provide a DNA sample”

“It is possible to receive UK TV using a galvanised dustbin lid and a piece of damp string”

I know some may think that this already happens!

And as for you Julian goody, goody, I know it’s just because you have run out of space on your mantelpiece.:bigergrin:

Not at all Nielo - I'm just lulling Ronni into a false sense of security. All this hassle will be driving him nuts - far more than I could ever have hoped to do - and you never know - he might even make me one of the Ronnettes!

I'd soon get the place sorted - I'd ban the lot of ya! :bigergrin: :bigergrin:

[quote=Sally Donaldson;108681][COLOR=red] it should make the Group experience better.[/COLOR]

Ronald Hi, I raised this in a thread recently. I tried to post in the Pets Corner as a member but because I'm on Nielo's Ignore List, my interesting post wasn't published.

Is there a way 'round this???[/quote]

[B]Sally, will you please stop trying to stir up trouble for others![/B]

You have already tried running to teacher with your petty piques on numerous occasions and have rightly been ignored. and as Ronald has clearly pointed out he has many more pressing calls upon his time and can probably do without you mythering him over a non issue.

As it's originator Nielo is perfectly at liberty to moderate the [I]'Pets Corner'[/I] social group in any way that she deems fit (as is any other group originator for that matter) and if that includes ignoring your [I]'interesting'[/I] post then live with the disappointment 'cause it isn't going to change.

As for [I]"Is there a way 'round this???",[/I] the answer is YES. It's called the [I]'Attenzione'[/I] group. Surely you remember, it's the one that you set up as a public group for the posting of interesting information for everyone to see. The one that the public can't read because, you can only read the interesting posts if you join the group and not everyone wants to join merely for the privilege of reading something interesting that has probably been published elsewhere already. This might very well explain why there have only been a total of three posts so far, one of which I'm quite sure will have been your [I]'interesting post'[/I].

Members Bill of Rights? This isn't a political party or an organisation. It's just a forum. No members or posters have any "rights" as such - we just post questions, answers, comments etc, ranging from incredibly detailed and helpful, to, well, those that should possibly have been left unsaid.

Maybe Italy Mag gets some sort of commercial mileage out of the forums, but possibly people post because they like to be in contact with other expats. I wonder who is the better served - the posters or Italy Mag. I've no doubt that the moderators want to provide a good service, but they're not there for the service of the posters. They provide us with a good, central place to comment and exchange information.

Perhaps if members want something which resembles an organisation with its own charter and member rights, they would feel less disappointed if they created their own forum. I'm not being sarky - I just think you're asking for more than is reasonable on a public forum and your interests might be better served if you set up your own group that could practise whatever member rights it wanted.

"The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later."

Maybe it's just you Sally - it's working fine for me.

As users of a service (that's basically what we are), we can always expect that there could be some problem at a certain stage due to unforeseen circumstances; we can have similar situations with our telephone, Internet server, water, electricity, etc. and to have a list of "rights" in writing will not help in many circumstances. As for the groups, they have been set up with those particularities by management. We can suggest changes, we can wish they were this way or that way, but this is it.... It is a matter of plain common sense, our "rights" start and finish right where the "rights" of a fellow member do the same. I wish that we would all get along fine and without any problems. "Love and Peace" as the hippies used to say, but I guess that it is just a dream... Sorry guys, I am in a grumpy mood and I get annoyed with this kind of "byzanthine discussions". And that's the new 2009 Gala for you. I must be getting old......

[quote=Gala Placidia;108742]As users of a service (that's basically what we are), we can always expect that there could be some problem at a certain stage due to unforeseen circumstances; we can have similar situations with our telephone, Internet server, water, electricity, etc. and to have a list of "rights" in writing will not help in many circumstances. As for the groups, they have been set up with those particularities by management. We can suggest changes, we can wish they were this way or that way, but this is it.... It is a matter of plain common sense, our "rights" start and finish right where the "rights" of a fellow member do the same. I wish that we would all get along fine and without any problems. "Love and Peace" as the hippies used to say, but I guess that it is just a dream... Sorry guys, I am in a grumpy mood and I get annoyed with this kind of "byzanthine discussions". And that's the new 2009 Gala for you. I must be getting old......[/quote]

In a way I agree with you Gala, this is an academic exercise because at the end of the day Ronald will do as he thinks fit, no matter what we say.

I don’t agree that we are just users of a service though, I think we are also contributors. Without Italy mag providing the forum as a place for us to communicate, there would be no forum but equally without members contributions there would be no forum either, it is a symbiotic relationship where each needs the other in order to exist. If we accept that, then it would be nice if each component part treated the other with the same respect.

I agree that there are unforeseen malfunctions on the forum in exactly the same way as electricity, phone etc, but I would be pretty peeved if there was a [B]planned[/B] power cut or loss of water and the relevant authority did not inform me in advance, wouldn’t you?

Yes, Nielo, I agree that we contribute to the "life" of the Forum and directly or indirectly (well, at least some members) the Magazine benefits from it. In my own case, I found my house in Italy through been attracted by the Forum first and then I naturally started searching through the Property pages. Also, reading the contents of the Forum was very useful and I found plenty of practical answers.
As for the "malfunctions" of services in general, I must confess that I have had quite a few bad experiences without a previous warning... so I have become a bit too tolerant perhaps....

I suppose that one of the main things Ronald can take from this thread is how indispensable this forum seems to be for some people.

I think that Ronald may find that starting a wiki is going to be major undertaking that will create more work than it will solve. The core issue is; Is there a right way to do things in Italy? As things vary from region to region and commune to commune and change often it will be very difficult to list definitive courses of actions that people should take. The in depth discussion on [URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/property-sales-rental-advice/1775-how-deal-dubious-estate-agents-forum-4.html#post108112"][B][U]translator qualifications[/U][/B][/URL] is a great example of the debate a relatively simple issue can generate. I can imagine all the PMs that the different opinions on every wiki subject are going to generate. Anyway I suppose this issue has been done to death.

Having said that, for information not factual wikis it would be different however. I seem to remember that the idea for the artists wiki had a lot of support. If you want to get the momentum continuing why not just start a blog (either here or on blogspot) where you can collect listings in the mean time. I would make a blog entry for each region and then you can go back and edit each entry as you get listings. You can then post a link in the forums to each blog post and hey presto, your own improvised wiki and you don't have to keep PMing the moderators.

The latest "power cut" was not foreseen, was not the same for all and as it seems it happened at a time (early morning) where we were not at our screens so we didn't even register it - so no sinister plans there. Part of the problem is that you should take more things at face value - if it says the server is too busy then that is the case. If it says the website is down for maintainance then that is the case.

There was one time we went down for maintainace over a weekend. We had mentioned it through our newsletter and we left a page up saying things are being maintained.

Perhaps I should also add that the forums will really be undergoing proper big changes and not just maintenance in about a month or so. We will probably create a separate page where to update you on these changes and will let people know shortly where this is.