11465 Harvesting rainwater

Hi Licciana

I wonder if you would have a mosquito problem with this type of water storage. I have seen posters around Arezzo in the Summer warning people not to have 'standing water' as this is a breeding ground for normal mosquitoes and the pretty nasty ones that give you dengu fever. It would have to be very secure to keep the bu++ers out.

We have an underground water storage tank for garden water, but this water also come from our spring and not from rain.

But good luck and I know what it is like to spend a couple of hours a day in the summer watering plants.

One way that I have reduced the watering is by using those water retaining gel crystals. Have not been able to get them in any quantity here (enough for 1 pot and very expensive) so I bring these crystals back from the UK.

Licciana
I think hanging a water butt of 1000L of water is probably a bit too much. If you imagine a tank at least 1m cube weighing 1000kg, it would need a substantial steel frame to support the tank and quite large bolts to hold it to the wall.
If your wall is new and reinforced concrete it would be possible but if the house is old with the walls made of stones and rocks then I think the pull-out loads on the bollts would be too great for the wall.
If its possible to have a frame with at least two legs down to the floor then you will have a much better .chance.
Can't help about comune permission.

Stribs

Hi Licciana
We had the same thoughts as you as we also have a patio we want watered when we are away. Although we have underground water tanks, we thought of an extra water butt, however as has already been posted, the locals told us that mossies will be a problem so it is a no no.

Whilst on the subject can anyone recommend a good auto watering system preferably solar? It is only a small area about 4m sq so not loads of plants.

First of all, I cannot see any mossie problems with a covered water butt, and the ones you have illustrated in the link look covered to me.

There is a lot to think about when designing your irrigation system, and believe me, it needs to be designed - in fact your courtyard planting scheme needs to be designed with an irrigation system in mind, so the planting and the system together need the same detailed consideration.

I'm assuming you are thinking about planting reasonably drought tolerant shrubs and trees (rosemary and lavender are only the first to spring to mind, there have been various threads on plants happy in a dry climate in the forum, and in the gardening group).

This sort of planting would enjoy drip feed irrigation for its first years (and would grow better if it continued to get the occasional drink later). Of course this means getting pipework to every planting position, whether a bed or a container, so you have to think about how you can do this discreetly and effectively. Ideally (especially for smaller containers) you also need to estimate how much water should arrive at every position - a container with flowers would need more drip-feeds than a tree, for example. Nearly all of the 'affordable' drip irrigation systems are high maintenance, the smallness of the tubes makes them prone to blockages, so it would be a good idea to have someone able to check out whether it is working on a monthly basis. It really is not a good idea to simply leave a sprinkler in the middle - that would waste nearly all the water and the plants wouldn't enjoy it.

I'm not persuaded that you could effectively irrigate (automatically or manually) using solely stored rainwater - although it depends on the size of your garden and the size of your storage. So I'd also suggest that you think about a control which tops up the water butt from the house water supply in times of need. (With a well designed system, and well chosen planting, it might actually be more economical to simply use the house water supply directly because not a lot of water need be involved.)

Then you have to consider how the water is going to be 'switched on'. There may be clockwork systems, but realistically you will be considering some programmable electric powered solution. These can be grossly overcomplicated, or relatively simple. For your sort of application, a control which measures how much rainfall has occurred is probably not necessary, nor is the ability to zone the setup, or make it behave differently at weekends. An ability to make it give more water in July than in November however would clearly be useful.

The installation isn't difficult (the plumber could easily cope), except the plumber can almost certainly not design a sensible installation. It's a matter of knowing what is available - and the trouble with an ambitious irrigation specialist is that he'll want to add all the bells and whistles!

You could look at

[url=http://www.garden4less.co.uk/automatic_watering_systems.asp?PARTNER=ga&gclid=CJjXvIHwnJgCFUse3godDBEZmg]Automatic Watering Systems , Hozelock Micro Irrigation[/url]

which includes a 'click on' on "Automatic Watering with a Water Butt"

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Re using regular tap water. Check with your comune whether you can use "acqua dell"acquedotto" (house water) for watering plants. In my area (South Umbria) it is illegal because of the drought situation in the hot weather. This doesn't stop people (local or otherwise) doing so but there is the danger that an officious official might come and poke his/her nose in!

Thanks for all the helpful replies. Here are my first thoughts -

I will have to check about mosquitoes. I too suspect that the kind of sealed butt I was thinking of, should prevent that being a problem but I'm grateful for the pointer because I would not have thought of it.

We're about 450 m above sea level in northern Tuscany, so my guess is that unless things change drastically we're only likely to be in serious risk of drought for a month or two at most. The mountains do seem to get a fair amount of rain. Nothing that requires a lot of attention. But how does an automatic system know if there's enough rainwater in the soil so that it doesn't need to continue drip feeding for a while?

The emphasis will be on sensible planting but I'd like a fair amount of leafy shrubbery to soften all the hard rectilinear surfaces in the couryard. Once there's lots of blousey greenery, I think that I can probably stick some silk flowers in amongst the shrubs and get away with them. :reallyembarrassed:

The point about the potential for blockages of the pipework, is another issue that will require more thought, given the hard water in our area. That will presumably be applicable to any water coming from the mains. Am I right in thinking rain water will be soft?

I think I agree that a wall mounted unit is going to be too heavy, and the place I had in mind is relatively high off the ground, so I suspect it's a non starter.

Charles, if you think a plumber would not be able to design a sensible installation, who would you look for?

[quote=Licciana;108688]...... But how does an automatic system know if there's enough rainwater in the soil so that it doesn't need to continue drip feeding for a while? ................. [/quote]

It doesn't - "automatic" in this case normally means "on a timer" - so I doubt if you can get a system that only switches on when there is a drought!!

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Don't they have some type of "damp sensor" built into the system? A bit like automatic windscreen wipers that come on only when there is a certain amout of rain on the screen.

Gold fish in your water tank should keep the mosquito population under control.

[quote=juliancoll;108729]Don't they have some type of "damp sensor" built into the system? A bit like automatic windscreen wipers that come on only when there is a certain amout of rain on the screen.[/quote]

You can incorporate these type of sensors

[url=http://www.irrometer.com/landcat.htm]Irrometer Landscape Products[/url]

[quote=juliancoll;108729]Don't they have some type of "damp sensor" built into the system? A bit like automatic windscreen wipers that come on only when there is a certain amout of rain on the screen.[/quote]

You could also go for something like this

[url=http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/New-Products/Weather-Station-for-your-HiTech-Home.html]Automated Home - Weather Station for your HiTech Home[/url]

but I seriously wonder whether the cost would be justified.

[One consideration when we bought our holiday place was the requirement for a 'maintenance free' garden area. We achieved this by buying a place with a courtyard - a concreted hard standing for the cars - and balconies with views of the hills and the neighbours gardens]

[quote=alan h;108749]

[One consideration when we bought our holiday place was the requirement for a 'maintenance free' garden area. We achieved this by buying a place with a courtyard - a concreted hard standing for the cars - and balconies with views of the hills and the neighbours gardens][/quote]

Well, ours is maintenance free in these terms as well. I just think aesthetics come into play here as well. A beautiful leafy green courtyard with hills in the distance beats hard concrete every day in my book - at least provided I can afford it. :smile:

If an automatic watering system proves too expensive or unworkable, I would be happy to try to find some to come by and water but I think that, too, can be expensive.

Hi Licciana,

I too am thinking of installing an irrigation system in our courtyard this summer and have been practising first here at home in Ireland.
I purchased a wonder Gardina water timer in France last year (approx €50) and bought irrigation hose in B&Q at home and then tried to set it all up using water butts but for some reason the pressure was not good enough to open the valves on the timer and so had to resort to the outdoor tap (which also has very bad pressure) but it worked wonderfully well. The timer runs on a battery and you can alter the lenght of time you wish to water how often ie. every day, etc., and how many times a day. The battery will last approx one year. In Dec. discovered a great garden centre near Sarzana (thanks to members of the forum) and they have a similar timer, so when I am next in Lunigiana at Easter hope to set it all up and will let you know how I get on. You don't need a plumber for this but you may have to install an outside tap.

Regards
Annette

[quote=Licciana;108688]Thanks for all the helpful replies. Here are my first thoughts -

I will have to check about mosquitoes. I too suspect that the kind of sealed butt I was thinking of, should prevent that being a problem but I'm grateful for the pointer because I would not have thought of it.

We're about 450 m above sea level in northern Tuscany, so my guess is that unless things change drastically we're only likely to be in serious risk of drought for a month or two at most. The mountains do seem to get a fair amount of rain. Nothing that requires a lot of attention. But how does an automatic system know if there's enough rainwater in the soil so that it doesn't need to continue drip feeding for a while?

The emphasis will be on sensible planting but I'd like a fair amount of leafy shrubbery to soften all the hard rectilinear surfaces in the couryard. Once there's lots of blousey greenery, I think that I can probably stick some silk flowers in amongst the shrubs and get away with them. :reallyembarrassed:

The point about the potential for blockages of the pipework, is another issue that will require more thought, given the hard water in our area. That will presumably be applicable to any water coming from the mains. Am I right in thinking rain water will be soft?

I think I agree that a wall mounted unit is going to be too heavy, and the place I had in mind is relatively high off the ground, so I suspect it's a non starter.

Charles, if you think a plumber would not be able to design a sensible installation, who would you look for?[/quote]

Yes I know that garden centre. It's massive and seems to be well stocked. We're going over in February (for the carnevale in Viareggio) so I hope we can have a look at what sort of equipment they might have for sale.

I'll be extremely interested in how you get on with your water set up so do post once you've got it installed.

Since any and all automated irrigation systems require routine maintenance to function properly it is a given that the more complex the system the more likely it is to fail in your absence. In light of the inevitability of occasional malfunction it might be worth revisiting gardening basics before investing in an elaborate system: the most efficient structures for water storage, release and usage are found in the soil and in plants themselves. Check the local area for indigenous plants that share the characteristics you are seeking (size, seasonal colour, growth habit etc.) and see if they are adaptable to your site. Local plants are more likely to take kindly to being left without careful tending and will be more forgiving of neglect. Finding and identifying these plants is not always easy as most commercial nurseries stock a standard range of ornamentals grown in central locations and shipped throughout the country, not always with consideration of local growing conditions. There is a vivaio near Florence that focuses on indigenous and heritage plants, including a wide range of fruit trees, hedge forming plants, slope stabilizers and ornamentals - they are a great resource for those looking for plants that can survive periods of absence, moisture variation and neglect. [url=http://www.vivaibelfiore.it]Vivai Belfiore | azienda |[/url].

I am not planning on non-indigenous plants. I've already factored those considerations into my plans. Unfortunately, even the most carefully planted scheme using indigenous plants needs water. Maybe a plant can go for a bit without water but not for long periods. Maybe wild plants can survive but not much else.

Our area gets a fair bit of rain, but it is quite usual to have problems for a month or two in the year. It may be that harvesting what rainwater we get, will allow us to get over that difficult period.

Apologies, Licciana, for heavy handed pedantry. Having watched the disappointment ( and, at times, anger) of periodic residents faced with the sad demise of expensive landscaping dreams after much thoughtful planning, I have come to wonder if perhaps the best solution is simply to recognize that container gardening from a distance is a lost cause. Wish you the best and would love to hear of your success.

[Hi Lucciana,

I will let you know how I get on as soon as I set it up. And yes it is only natural that we would all choose plants that are thriving in the area, like lavender, geraniums etc., I generally look around the area and see what the neighbours have planted in their containers and just copy same. So far even without any irrigation system in place I grow lavender, geraniums and some suculents, which retain their water well. Also have an Allo vera which has started to thrive after two years. Another good idea is to line the pots with newspaper that has been saturated with water ( I leave it steeping for a few hours) and then when you water your plants well before leaving the newspaper will be saturated and retail moisture for a little longer. I also move what I have to a shaded area when I leave, so no direct strong sun is drying up their compost. It is not necessarily true that container gardens don't do well as I have seen many thrive and they have been badly neglected. It's just a matter of choosing the right plants as I said and there is a huge variety to choose from.
Planted tulips last autums and looking forward to seeing their happy flowers at Easter. The gardener must always be optimistic and it's just a matter of tried and tested.
Will let you know how I get on.

Annette

quote=Licciana;108894]Yes I know that garden centre. It's massive and seems to be well stocked. We're going over in February (for the carnevale in Viareggio) so I hope we can have a look at what sort of equipment they might have for sale.

I'll be extremely interested in how you get on with your water set up so do post once you've got it installed.[/quote]

if you're going to spend so much on plants and the garden means a lot to you (as it always does when you've designed, planted and cared for it yourself) the only solution in my opinion is, in addition to irrigation systems, to pay for a gardener (not a neighbour or friend) to call in on a regular basis. In the summer - if you're not there - it would have to be frequently but in the winter just once a month or so. Needn't be too expensive if you establish what you want from the outset.

HI I’ve not moved to Italy yet….. So not too sure how it would pan out over there, but I have used the Hozelock Micro Irrigation system for 4-5 years now in England and since helped others in the family to install theirs (it’s very easy). Our main purpose was for whenever we were away on holiday for 2-3 weeks, but run it almost all the year around. This is one site that sells the parts you need. [url=http://www.keengardener.co.uk/product/index/46/irrigation-and-watering-automatic-irrigation.rails]Automatic Irrigation | Irrigation & Watering Products | Gardening Equipment & Tools | Keen Gardener[/url]

You can get “rain detector” timers, but I’ve never used them and they do look costly. In fact all the gear is quite costly , but in my opinion well worth it. As to looking after it, well they recommend draining it in winter to avoid bursts due to heavy frost, but I’ve never got around to it… I have had to change the battery once a year and do occasionally switch some parts of it off…. Which leads nicely on to the previous post on planning…. Yep you need to look at this very carefully regards type of watering needed , segregation of different parts if you want to switch any off at times (winter perhaps ) and simply to ensure you do not have unsightly pipes all over the place.

I doubt until you use one you would appreciate that half the gear they sell is not needed i.e. this dripper as opposed to that kind of dripper, so it might be an idea to buy a small part and then extend later. One thing to note in this respect is the fact in general it IS very easy to change …. I’m sure there will be a lot cheaper alternative to Hozelock, but I’m sure they will be the same in principle i.e. bits of “main” pipes off which you run smaller feeder pipe. This pipe is thin flimsy plastic for the “main” stuff and much more robust for the small bore “feeder” stuff. You could avoid using too much off the “main” piping by using standard hosepipe as this is used in any case to link up the timer….

Have a look at the site, any further questions by all means get back to me

Steve

This will all work fine Steve if you have a good reliable garden water supply in Italy, (can't use the mains water), and there isn't a thunderstorm and the electricity supply is then cut off. Then the well pump won't work. So watering whilst away for any length of time, does need someone to check and see it's all working. Once you are living here you'll know how hard it is to maintain a garden and why we plant robust drought resistent stuff. There are specialists that will fit irrigation systems for you using brown drip hoses which are discrete and most of the Hozelock stuff is available here too, the problem is always the supply of water. Buying and installing huge tanks to save winter rain water, can work out more expensive than actually buying tanks of water in summer. A lot to think about but as ever, it's worth considering all the options.

Ah forgot to add the bit about making sure you read the pressure requirements. Yes from what Noble and others have said that could be a considerable problem in Italy.

Regards the ability to ensure a water supply, if the pressure is ok, it will depend on your water requirements i.e. if you only need to ensure a once a week water of say 5 gallons a shot for 6 month of the year, I’m sure you could either manage without using a pump or with it failing occasionally (so long as the failure is not permanent). Like I say you need the pressure , but I would guess this could be managed even with the use of a water butt ….
Steve