11577 No More Kebabs - or Hard Work

Oh no!!! Seriously bad news for all you homesick foreigners out there!!! However there was report recently in the UK about the high cholesterol in kebabs sold here so maybe quite a good idea to curb appetites for such "unhealthy" food.

Also the centre of Lucca is far far too pretty for the nasty cheap signage that usually accompanies these foreign food outlets.

Oh yes!! Let's keep all the nasty cheap signage out! How wonderful it will be not to have any more Pizza Hut, Pizza Express, Domino's Topo' D'oro or Spaghetti House signs cluttering up the world.

Long live the Kebab Houses - 'cus I can read Arabic! :bigergrin:

I agree with comments made by readers of Times Online at the end of the article. The ban only affects a very small area of Lucca, within the ancient walls and I do agree that this type of establishments do not suit that section of the city. After all, cars are also banned in the area no matter where they are made. There are plenty of other areas within the city of Lucca where you can have all the Chinese food, Kebabs and Curries you may want to eat. I only see it as an effort to preserve the special character of a unique city.

Are you serious Gala? I respect your view, but I can not agree as I see this as the start of something far more sinister. It's Italy at the height of going bonkers and it has serious undertones of racism.

[quote=juliancoll;109719] It's Italy at the height of going bonkers and it has serious undertones of racism.[/quote]

Well, it's all a little bit like the British Workers complaining that Italians work for less money thus shouldn't be building their oil refinery, innit?
Protectionism is also a form of 'racism' - well, clearly it's a form of racism - and equally clearly it's the way the world is heading.

Funnily enough, it is one thing which George W Bush [I]didn't[/I] get wrong

[quote=Gala Placidia;109718]I agree with comments made by readers of Times Online at the end of the article. The ban only affects a very small area of Lucca, within the ancient walls and I do agree that this type of establishments do not suit that section of the city.[/quote]

Those were only some of the comments made by readers. Others see it for the thin end of the potentially racist wedge which the announcement really is. This is the Northern League.

Walled Lucca is a lovely city and deserves to be protected with tough planning laws, but tough planning laws could achieve their aims without discrimination. Surely there would be enough civil servants and vigile to slap fines on inappropriate flashing lights - could even be a good revenue earner.

I do not think that there is any hidden racism in this particular decision. As far as the city of Lucca is concerned it goes in line with many restrictions regarding what you can and cannot do within the walled precinct. Granted that the Northern League is not the best example of tolerance and perhaps they may be trying to use this issue for their own hidden agenda; however, if I were the Mayor of Lucca I would also try to maintain the character of the city.... I would also remove some signage which is not particularly nice and I am not talking about foreign food outlets.
As I said before, Lucca is a large city and there are many other places where these businesses may thrive.
And Charles, I tend to disagree with you about protectionism, which is not always a sinister move. The word "discrimination" is also sometimes abused.

I have been hearing about this on the news and I think it smacks of racism too. Milan is also considering it - I'm pretty gobsmacked by it really. As if a few "ethnic" restaurants are going to ruin Italy's cities?

Again, katier, we are not talking about the whole of the city, but only a small area. They are free to open up businesses wherever they want but not withing the walled precinct, which is only a small area if you compare it to the whole of the city of Lucca.

[quote=katier;109729]............... As if a few "ethnic" restaurants are going to ruin Italy's cities?[/quote]

True - the Italians can manage to do that well enough on their own!

.

[quote=Charles Phillips;109721]Well, it's all a little bit like the British Workers complaining that Italians work for less money thus shouldn't be building their oil refinery, innit?[/quote]
Strangely enough, that thought crossed my mind as I read the article.

I know I should be able to answer this for myself, but I have been wondering if the anti-non-British-contractors unrest across the UK has been getting much play in the media in Italy. I see brief mention of it on [I]ANSA[/I] and in the on-line [I]Corriere della Sera[/I], but I can't tell from that how much prominence the story has been given, nor is my Italian anywhere near sufficient to understand the nuances of how it's being presented.

Presumably, the folks in the Northern League are – in spirit, anyway – on the barricades along with the British strikers. (Obviously they can't be there in person since it seems they fear that their soul will wither or something equally dire will happen if they should ever set foot on anything other than hallowed Italian soil, eat anything other than food grown and prepared within five kilometres of where they were born, breathe anything other than Po valley fug or be surrounded by vile non-Italians.)

Al

[quote=AllanMason;109733]I know I should be able to answer this for myself, but I have been wondering if the anti-non-British-contractors unrest across the UK has been getting much play in the media in Italy. [/quote]

Well, I take the weekend off from reading the press, but the story has led the news bulletins on Radio24 since Friday. That's a bit of an 'employers' radio station, so the take has been interest in how the UK government will approach the union aspect, and how far these 'wildcat' strikes will go.

It's been news number three on the mainstream Rai TG - but I think had it been a Spanish contractor rather than Italian it wouldn't have got the attention. That coverage is relatively light hearted - more along the lines of look what these normally straight laced Brits can get up to.

There was also a Portuguese contractor and his team, but nobody seems to care about them......

They probably do care - on a Portugese forum Gala. We are sometimes a little insular here - and can forget there is a real world out there.

JC, I can understand this being the case in the Forum, but even the Spanish press concentrated on the Italo-British confrontation and only one newspaper mentioned the Portuguese being involved as well.
Regardless of who was involved, it is obvious that in these difficult times workers are asking for protectionism and possibly this is what they are going to get from their respective governments, as they want to remain popular and this is a pretty difficult task during a recession.

Returning to the content of the original post, the idea that "working long hours" is something that only ethnic minorities are capable of seems to be a bit of a slur on the Italian character. Maybe Sgr Boni should travel a little more widely in Italy and he would see what people are capable of - in many cases, holding down 2 or 3 jobs! [B]Davide Boni, a councillor in Milan for the Northern League, which also opposes the building of mosques in Italian cities, said that kebab shop owners were prepared to work long hours, which was unfair competition. [/B]

[quote=katier;109729]I have been hearing about this on the news and I think it smacks of racism too. Milan is also considering it - I'm pretty gobsmacked by it really. As if a few "ethnic" restaurants are going to ruin Italy's cities?[/quote]

The article says

"There are 668 ethnic restaurants in Milan, a rise of nearly 30 per cent in one year."

I'd hardly call that "a few" ethnic restaurants - something over 180 new ones opened in the past year in one city alone?

One thing I and others particularly love about Italy is the fact that it still looks and feels like Italy. Lots of other places in the world, you could be anywhere - local flavour seems to be rapidly disappearing.
Far from being "racism" (a term now bandied about willy-nilly by people who don't actually know what the word means) it is simply common sense to try to keep your cultural qualities intact, and not just for idealogical reasons. It's all about keeping a sense of proportion.

Terry

I'm one of those willy nilly people that hasn't got a clue what racism means - would you be so kind as to explain it to me in clear understandable terms, but also in some detail?

Willy of the clan Nilly here too.

If the town councillors want to preserve a sense of cultural proportion in the lovely city centres, say because they believe there are too many places to eat, then fine ban the launch of any new places to eat. Instead they have decided to ban the launch of new ethnic restaurants only. Not because the owners set up illegally, not because they are breaking food hygiene laws, but because the food on offer is not Italian. That is discriminatory on the basis of race. That is called racism.

Umberto Bossi (leader of the Northern League) reportedly said
...that immigrants arriving in Italy by boat should be stopped by a cannon that "blows everyone out of the water".

If that does not sound racist then I guess I'm a silly nilly too.

glad I'm not the only silly nilly...

[quote=Persephone;109875]Umberto Bossi (leader of the Northern League) reportedly said
...that immigrants arriving in Italy by boat should be stopped by a cannon that "blows everyone out of the water".

If that does not sound racist then I guess I'm a silly nilly too.[/quote]

Now, that is a dangerous racist remark which I cannot condone. Immigration is one thing, but protecting a historical enclave is a different matter. Do you think we should start having hot dog stands at the gates of Buckingham Palace?

I probably did not make my point very clearly.

The thread started with a clear reference to the antics of The Northern League.

[quote=Ghianda;109707]According to the TimesOnline ethnic food retailers in parts of Italy will be facing harsh new curbs on their activity thanks to the continuing marvels of The Northern League. If one quote is accurate we have been granted an incredible insight into the Northern League's utter stupidity in the way it approaches serious issues. [B]Davide Boni, a councillor in Milan for the Northern League, which also opposes the building of mosques in Italian cities, said that kebab shop owners were prepared to work long hours, which was unfair competition. [/B]

[URL="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/food_and_drink/article5622156.ece"]Italy bans kebabs and foreign food from cities - Times Online[/URL][/quote]

I was trying to illustrate that anything that The Northern League and it's leader have to say, is likely to be xenophobic. I cannot trust the opinions or motives of anyone who can say things like that. And I regard all their policies with suspicion, including those were they use arguments for the preservation of cultural heritage against the rights of people of diverse ethnic origin.

[quote=Persephone;109932]
I was trying to illustrate that anything that The Northern League and it's leader have to say, is likely to be xenophobic.[/quote]

Well, I'm not saying you are wrong, but you are certainly being blinkered, and about as prejudiced as Umberto Bossi to post a comment like that. Sorry.

[quote=Persephone;109932]I probably did not make my point very clearly.

The thread started with a clear reference to the antics of The Northern League.

..........".Davide Boni, a councillor in Milan for the Northern League, which also opposes the building of mosques in Italian cities, said that kebab shop owners were prepared to work long hours, which was unfair competition".

I was trying to illustrate that anything that The Northern League and it's leader have to say, is likely to be xenophobic. I...........[/quote]

Perhaps what he meant was that Italian businesses conform to the EU working time directives which prevent staff working excessive hours - whereas a family run/staffed Kebab House doesn't follow the same rules, and therefore has an unfair commercial advantage.

[Don't necessarily agree with him - but I can see where he's coming from]

.

[quote=Charles Phillips;109933]Well, I'm not saying you are wrong, but you are certainly being blinkered, and about as prejudiced as Umberto Bossi to post a comment like that. Sorry.[/quote]

My strong views are born out of what I have heard, seen and read about this party together with personal experience of what it is like to be the subject of racial abuse. What am I, and other independent commentators, missing here?

[B]BBC[/B] European Affairs Analyst Tamsin Smith, 10 May 2001.

[I]The Northern League… …Now it has turned to a populist and even xenophobic rhetoric... [/I]

Peter Popham, [B]The Independent[/B], 27 Nov 2007.

[I]Writing about Cittadella which ‘has become the first town in Italy town who may not live in it: namely the poor, the unemployed and the homeless… …foreigners and immigrants’. The Mayor ‘belongs to the Northern League, the party led by the demagogic Umberto Bossi.’[/I]

[B]BBC[/B] Aiden Lewis, April 17 2008

[I]The Northern League… … concerns about what critics see as the party's overtly xenophobic stance[/I]

[B]Economist[/B], April 17 2008

[I]Led by the eccentric and raucous Umberto Bossi, the xenophobic Northern League did outstandingly well… …Mr Bossi's party is both anti-immigrant and protectionist.[/I]

If I am blinkered on this, then perhaps someone could enlighten me. This is the politics section of the forum so is exactly the right place for this debate.

[URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1321804.stm"]BBC News | EUROPE | Bossi focuses immigration fears[/URL]

[URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7350691.stm"]BBC NEWS | Europe | Italy's Northern League resurgent[/URL]

[URL="http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11067600"]Silvio Berlusconi | Italy embraces Silvio, again and again | The Economist[/URL]

[URL="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/xenophobia-in-italy-a-fortress-fights-to-keep-out-poor-760603.html"]Xenophobia in Italy: a fortress fights to keep out poor - Europe, World - The Independent[/URL]

It is a historical fact that in times of crisis or recession xenophobia, racism and intolerance thrive. It is the old "look for a escape goat" syndrome. So I am afraid that we are going to hear plenty of all this....

I think you are right Persephone to stay suspicious of individual politicians and political parties with a clear track record of prejudice against minorities.

In an article published by the UK based [B]Institute of Race Relations [/B]just after the general elections in April 2008 we get more on the "Cannons" reference, and if anyone on the forum remains in any doubt - please do read the full article from the link below.

[I]In June 2003, in an interview with the Corriere della Sera he declared that 'There are two ways to apply the law [to combat illegal immigration] approved a year ago. Either our ships will tackle the illegal migrants' vessels and take on board only the women and children, or else we write down in black and white that force will be used, and that is the way I want it. After the second or third warning, boom ... the cannon roars. The cannon that blows everyone out of the water.' [/I]
[I][B]One might ask whether a man who incites violence in this way is fit to stand for public office[/B]. But, unabashed, he and the League recently turned their fire on the Roma. In October 2007, following the arrest of a Roma suspect of Romanian origin for rape and murder, the League (and the Alleanza Nationale) spearheaded a campaign for the introduction of an emergency decree which would collectively punish (through mass deportations) all Romanians for the individual crime of one Roma suspect.[/I]

[URL="http://www.irr.org.uk/2008/april/ha000035.html"]IRR: Why we should fear Italy's Northern League[/URL]

Talk about the tread getting side tracked............. from Hot Dogs to Hot Potatoes..