535 Type of deeds

We are in the process of purchasing a 200 year old trullo, rebuilt some 15 years ago. The structural survey that we had undertaken in April detected some damp through the outside wall (but not through the floor). However, there were no signs or smell of it to us.

We have heard that trulli are susceptible to damp as most are totally enclosed, although we have seen some cones fitted with open vents which might help. When looking at properties (in April) some trullo did smell damp (even though occupied), although others seemed fine.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Flyingpigs,
Yes we noted many showed signs of damp, well the smell. So I'm not sure what could be done seeing that any Trullo we hopefully buy will be empty much of the time. Any suggestions anyone?

Di

Have a look at this link for further info on how to solve damp problems [url]www.northwales.org.uk/jn/spec.htm[/url]

pixie.....

thanks for that link... clear and useful.....

we have just finished restoring an apartment next door and used lime based products ..... but i found the article in the link helpful because of its explanation on the chemical process....

if anyone restoring follows this route...and they would be wise to you will also find that there are several products available in most of the building suppliers that have it all ready mixed for you.... one a straight lime turns a light pink when used but they also have many others which you can choose from color charts.....not brilliant garish colors but more subtle ones which also save on having to paint..... a 25 k bag works out at about ten euro...

one problem you might find though is that if the building is not structually strong is that your geometra or architect might well insist on using cement based rendering to hold the building together....that being the case you might well have damp problems....

our house is covered in cement and because of the size... cost ...etc etc... what i intend to do is to remove this rough finished render which goes up about a couple of meters and replace it with a lime based one.... eventually...that is...this should allow the natural function of the stone walls and the breathing to occur and not trap the damp inside....so that higher up where the cement based render is damp shouldnt reach

generally in the past this was achieved anyway because the ground floor was not inhabited by humans...either animals or farm produce were kept at this level and the main human part started at the first floor....

now you will find lots of houses where this has changed.... if looking at one of these there are in general several problems which are comon and eventually will have to be managed...

the worst one is the cement floor... this pulls the damp up into the walls and floor....look for fluffy white powder... even if you do not see it ...it will arrive... the only solution is to eventually have this floor removed and dug out to a depth of at least a meter and replaced with either cones which look a bit like egg boxes...big ones... or channels to allow an air flow...once this is in you build a floor with a membrane in place over it....i would say this is generally the worse job.... its internal so machines are difficult to get in and its messy...

the walls are easier and both inside and outside ones should be tackled...if the stonework is good to look at pointing round the stones once cleaned is the most pleasant to look at ... inside you can also spray this work afterward which will help keep the dust down because one thing about lime based mortars is that they are a bit crumbly.....they do not set as hard as cement...

i still think you can get away with only say doing the ground floor or at least to a level about two meters above ground...and this will form in a sense a natural damp course..... there is something to do with gravity and how water is pulled up the wall... or pressured by gravity... all very technical .... and based on something to do with archimedes i think.... but i believe this will solve a lot of the rising damp problems....

the other problem with the cement based renders is that if they crack or get holes the water goes behind them so then you get damp from the weather inside...and it gets trapped there....old walls often 70 cm to 100 cm contain a lot of soil and this holds the water and releases it slowly into the house...especially when you start heating as the water is drawn in... so if you leave a cement based plaster in place make sure it is well maintained and use a modern paint to keep the water out...

one thing to look at when buying an older house...amongst many ... if it hasnt been maintained is lots of yellow staining on the outside walls.... this means the internal soil has been washed out over time and the walls are then not structually sound....

i think much like england with those cement rough walls and stucco finishes or gravel renders it was all a fashion thing... or a sign you had money to throw away.. now builders and architects think a bit more and realise the old ways were for a purpose and with the use of modern techniques based on these old ways you can return your house to a dampless environment

... i do not caim to be an expert on this and would suggest any one checks it all out with a local technician.... but i think what i have said gives a basis to start on the process of getting the house in order... and will maybe help when dealing with an architect to understand a bit more of what the process will entail..... the main thing is do not let anyone come in and start throwing lots of cement at the place...it will not help at all...

Your agent is telling you porkies I'm afraid.

The law in Italy (Article 1350 of the Italian Civil Code refers) stipulates in fact that contracts which, among other things, are intended for the conveyance of properties must either be ratified by 1) atto pubblico (public title deed) or the 2) scrittura privata autenticata (legalised private document).

The main distinction between the atto pubblico and scrittura privata autenticata lies in subtle differences with the probatory capacity of each document. The atto notarile is a public document and has to be drawn up by a public official so in the case of the atto pubblico, the Notaio is effectively the author of the document. In the case of the scrittura privata, the contracting parties can draw up the document. The Notaio only approves, authenticates and witnesses the document that has been drawn up by others.

The scrittura privata seems to be preferred by many as it costs less than the atto pubblico. Nevertheless, you should consider that with the scrittura privata it might be possible for mistakes to be made inadvertently. For example, the contract may leave out essential elements or a contractual condition may be incorrect, which either party may contest to and subsequently seek out an equitable remedy for. This would of course require a processo di contestazione. But this inevitably equates into more time, energy and money.

In short, either will suffice, although you do have greater protection with the atto pubblico. The best thing to do is to ask your Notaio.

Thanks Charles about the deeds, we thought as much. We have to say that this agent we are dealing with is making us very uneasy but as with many if you like the property they are selling you tend to persevere. Lots of sales talk that we are having to get to the bottom of which is quite exhausting! For example told when viewing property that old farm ruin can be converted to accommodation, "no problem" but we know that this is not necessarily true as it depends on build to land ratio. Plus many other issues we are trying to get to the bottom of. Somehow don't think we will be recommending this agent too anyone.

Charles do you know how much more the fees for an atto pubblico is likely to be.

Thanks to others for suggestions on damp but the trullo is exposed stone so wouldn't want to cover it with cement etc.

Di

Di...

Costs vary so it is best to speak to your Notaio about this. As you know it is not easy to work these things out a priori as Notaio's have a minimum and a maximum fee. If you don't have one yet...let me know as two of my relatives are lawyers in Taranto and they might be able to recommend someone.

PS: My mother is orginially from Grottaglie and my Aunt used to have a trullo out in the countryside around Martina Franca. I vividly remember my visits as a boy, spending my summer holidays down there watching my grandmother make orrecchiette and prepare some wonderful salsa di pommodoro. Those were magical days! I certainly would like to turn the clock back and relive the experience all over again!

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca]Thanks Charles about the deeds, we thought as much. We have to say that this agent we are dealing with is making us very uneasy but as with many if you like the property they are selling you tend to persevere. Lots of sales talk that we are having to get to the bottom of which is quite exhausting! For example told when viewing property that old farm ruin can be converted to accommodation, "no problem" but we know that this is not necessarily true as it depends on build to land ratio. Plus many other issues we are trying to get to the bottom of. Somehow don't think we will be recommending this agent too anyone.

Charles do you know how much more the fees for an atto pubblico is likely to be.

Thanks to others for suggestions on damp but the trullo is exposed stone so wouldn't want to cover it with cement etc.

Di[/QUOTE]

What about the pointing?

Yes your right flyingveepixie, and in good condition or replaced would reduce some of the problem in a trullo but may not solve rising damp.

I'm just basing my knowledge on English properties that damp is absorbed into porous brickwork or stone but a damp proof course is put in place under floors and at the bottom of walls. Trulli were built years ago direct on to the ground so I would imagine that preventing damp was not a worry to them then. All I can imagine is that maybe it’s not such a problem due to the rocky terrain. I have no idea, hence the question.

Thanks again though, all suggestions gratefully recieved.

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca]I'm just basing my knowledge on English properties that damp is absorbed into porous brickwork or stone but a damp proof course is put in place under floors and at the bottom of walls. Trulli were built years ago direct on to the ground so I would imagine that preventing damp was not a worry to them then. All I can imagine is that maybe it’s not such a problem due to the rocky terrain. I have no idea, hence the question.[/QUOTE]

Trulli and other natural stone buildings avoid damp by a complex balance between the rate at which water enters the stone and the rate of evaporation. If you do anything to mess with the structure of the building you can make damp worse rather than better. Hence as adriatica says, cement floors can make damp much worse by preventing water from evaporating via the floor, the water passes by capillary action into the walls and creates damp walls.

Similarly rendering or pointing a building that was not designed to be rendered or pointed can make damp worse, as can the use of silicone sprays and liquids and even the wrong type of paint and plaster on interior walls.

A trullo, as I understand it, is very similar to the dry stone walled buildings common in Derbyshire, Lancashire and Yorkshire. Many of these buildingswere ruined by Victorian restorers who used cement "strap pointing" in the belief that they were preventing damp, when in fact they did the opposite.

The advice from our geometra is that our own old stone rubble building should not be plastered with modern plaster but instead with lime plaster and that lime mortar should be used for crack repairs. Gypsum plaster should be avoided at all costs because it attracts humidity from the atmosphere and it forms an impermeable skin, preventing the evaporation from the stone.

In the UK, conservation techniques for these very old buildings are promoted by the S.P.A.B. (Society for the Preservation of Ancient Buildings) I don't know of any Italian equivalent. S.P.A.B. publish a number of helpful leaflets and also offer courses in restoration techniques.

Thanks

Sounds sensible but I was thinking of the floors as well. I'm sure a geometro in the area will have the answers when we are back out there.

Floors you have to be really careful with. We have rammed earth floors in our house in the UK which are covered with large terracotta tiles (three inches thick) which are known locally as "pammets". There's no damp proofing of any kind and one of the things that must be avoided is putting down any floor covering which is impermeable to water (e.g. no vinyl flooring or carpet). If the floor is left bare or covered with a natural floor covering such as sea grass mats then the water evaporates and the floor stays dry.

Hi all,

On my last visit, I visited my friends trullo, and he was experiencing, a small damp problem.

The first thing they did was drain the trullo,s internal water cistern under the house (after advice from locals), seems to be a common source of damp, and may help reduce or even stop the problem.

This may only be of use if you have another water supply IE a well or other tank.

For example

My property has an internal cistern under the house and an external cistern outside the building underground.

Ciao
Steve