492 A Call For Short Stories

Dear All

I am sure we all have some good stories about moving to Italy, our story revolves around the warmth and spirit of what Italy and their people are about.
In 2003 we decided to buy an old farmhouse for restoration in Le Marche. With only little knowledge of Italian we manage the task, and was introduced was to be our local neighbour who owned the farm down the lane.
In 2005 we first made the BIG mistake of moving our furniture into the house. Our furniture which was stored in Naples arrived at our local village, Isola, on two lorries, that looked at at best molto vecchio which is how I now describe my husband, and funnily enough he agrees, especially when I show him a spade or a rake.
For any people who know Isola, the village is small, but has one of the best pizza and restaurants called Il Refugo. As you drive through the village you are faced with a steep hill, which turns sharply left then down another hill. For those who live in Italy especially around Le Marche, Abruzzo, Umbria, Tuscany, we will all remember the snow of 2005. I have never saw so much snow. We stayed at the Hotel Diana in Cingoli the night before and our small fiat was completely covered in snow.
The first lorry driver who had 5 of the 9 wooden shipping crates on the back put on snow chains and after saying his prayers gently slid down the slope, only just making the series of bends to the house.
The other driver who was as white as the snow, rufused to take his lorry down the slope to the house. Our house is about 1km down the lane, and these crates where 8ft by 10ft by 8ft high.
We where then faced with the problem of half of our furniture at the house, the snow falling thicker than my mums pea soup, and a driver drinking grappa, which he said was for his heart, either way in his mind he was going back to Naples.
Then from the distance we heard and saw a huge tractor with what looked like bale spikes on the front and offered to carry the crates down the hill to our house. We vaguely remembered the driver who we now know was Franco Firorini. At great risk to his tractor he gently carried the remaining 4 crates down the hill to our house. We were gob-smacked, when at the house was his sons, who helped us for over 4 hours unpack the furniture out of the crates. It was freezing but no one complained. The next morning there was a knock at the door, with Franco and his wife Gabriella with a flowering tree, welcoming us to the village of Isola. We will never forget that first day in Italy, and I know there has been some criticism of the 'rose tinted spectacles' approach towards Italy, but know one can ever knock the people, after all isn't this one of the reasons we list when choosing somewhere to live. We have since gone on to be accepted into our little village, meeting people who funnily enough all seem to be related to the Fiorini's. only a few weeks ago we had our little rotavator blessed in church. There is something about the life in this country that maybe we are all looking for. Franco had no need to help, nor did he have to risk his tractor that day, but he did and it learnt the both of us a sharp lesson on respect. Good luck to everyone who makes the move.

This is a beautiful story, and shows that my experience in Barcellona is not an isolated case. I really enjoyed reading your very interesting and heart warming tale, in the midst of winter, as it was.

Also, thank you for being the first to answer the call, your introduction is very much appreciated as well.

Yesterday I was on a low and as I spied Pisa airport even more so.Goodbye's come hard and the tears begin to trickle.

I did have a wonderful month at my childhood home in Italy ( my husband could only take a fortnight off - but I could stay longer having joined ranks with the retired).I had two couples from N.I. join me for the latter two weeks and they " Never had a holiday like it" they were quoted as saying.We certainly did our utmost to draw them into the Italian culture and because of us the locals readily accepted and welcolmed them.

We had some wonderful mealtimes - more folk and banter the better - thankgoodness for plastic tableware - though hands are a useful commodity as Italians love to chew the bones.

As I made myself available to help neighbours bring in the hay I marvelled how people of 70+ could undertake such strenuous tasks and still find time to think of us by preparing lasagne or other tasty dishes.

Forget Italian - its the local dialect with the elderly local community - many of whom are missing a tooth or two and are rather deaf!Because of them and around home, I feel at ease in my old rags, devoid of airs and graces and gabbling their lingo to the best of my ability.

We did venture out of the homestead - to Pisa, Florence the beautiful rugged Ligurian coastline, the mountain villages which twinkle in the night - so full of history, yet some of them now so sparsely inhabited and mainly by the ageing generation.

We do have our favourite eating places in the area but to the list we've now added "Osteria della Bietola" in Pontremoli.Their prices being very reasonable.

At the end of the day when all is quiet and the evening clear and warm we would sit outside and gaze around.Before us we have an unhindered view across the Magra valley to the sea beyond.Behind us the mountains with their sprouting villages.Even the sky declares its beauty as we turn heavenwards.

But - its getting late - we hear the bell srike the late hour, we retire to bed leaving the wildlife to their antics.

Yes! A return is imminent!

Rosemary

Rosemary, you made me want to move immediately to live in Italy, lovely story, ohhhhhh, wait, I already live here, Aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh. :)

Rosemary,
Thanks for sharing your story with us; I only wish more people would do the same.

Over 300 readers of the original posting, and only two people live a life interesting enough to write about it. I cannot believe this is reality! Surely, somewhere out there in the Italia Cyberspace there must be some interesting stories to be told. We will not judge your grammar or spelling, we promise. All we want is to learn from your experiences made while either living or vacationing in Italia. Is that too much to ask?

Please let your stories become our stories.

Thanks for trying!

[QUOTE=FrancisM]Over 300 readers of the original posting, and only two people live a life interesting enough to write about it. I cannot believe this is reality! Surely, somewhere out there in the Italia Cyberspace there must be some interesting stories to be told. We will not judge your grammar or spelling, we promise. All we want is to learn from your experiences made while either living or vacationing in Italia. Is that too much to ask?[/quote]

Errm being honest, yes it is.

[Quote]
Please let your stories become our stories.
[/QUOTE]

How much do you pay per word?

In the mid 80's I lived in Italy for four years. I gradually modified my behavior to the point that I typically went along with the Italian customs rather than rock the boat. Occasionally, and usually with unforeseen consequences, I strayed from this good advice. My good friend's sweet, 81-yr-old grandmother, Alma Mae, came to visit us. She was a real trooper and never once was heard a complaint. One day we all went to a restaurant for lunch. Towards the end of the meal the waiter asked if we would like anything else. I was serving as translator and asked Alma Mae if she would like anything more to eat. She asked for a gelato and meekly added, "You know...I would like a coffee at the same time...I understand that in Italy the coffee comes AFTER dessert but would it be possible....?" I would not typically take on such a task but who can say "no" to your friend's grandmoter? I meekly asked the waiter if Alma Mae (I would never ask for myself) could have her ice cream and coffee together "insieme." The waiter scowled and nodded affirmatively. Soon he returned and placed a bowl of ice cream in front of Alma Mae. I smiled when I saw the small cup of coffee was also on his tray. My smile turned to a look of astonishment as he cermoniously proceeded to pour the espresso from the cup over top of the bowl of ice cream. To this day I do not know the waiter's motivations. Alma Mae never did once complain on that trip, I try even harder to "go with the flow" while in Italy, and we always have a good laugh in both our families when we are asked, "Would you like a little coffee with that....?"

Stefanaccio,
Thanks for this very cute story. I guess together has different meanings for different people.
Francis M.

It is very common in Italy to have a Taglio al Caffe, that is an ice cream with a coffee. The waiter just thought that was what you were asking for...

Is it not funny how we all learn from stories shared, and information (corrections) provided as a result? Thanks again for the info.

Grazie tanto, never heard of a Taglio al Caffe. Which reminds me....

About 15 years ago, during the time I was living in Vicenza, a friend from the United States came to visit. My amico spoke no Italian but had been in the Peace Corps in South America and was very conversant in a Spanish dialect from Uraguay. We decided to go to Rome for a bit. While there we stopped to ask directions. My friend was not shy and he went up to a kind Italian gentleman and, in Spanish dialect, inquired about the best way to get to the Spanish steps. The Italian man answered all of our questions and we both thanked him for his assistance. As we were about to go on our way, the man turned to us and, in perfect Italian, said to my friend, "Ehi, non sei da qui .... tu vieni da nord Italia, vero?"
Casale-Villa in Abruzzo
[url]http://www.angelfire.com/film/casale[/url]

Accents in Italy are very different from region to region, as I am sure you'll know. We also speak different dialetti , that are real languages... I speak piemontese and i would not understand any other dialect...

I live in Glasgow now.. a few months ago as I walking to my yoga lesson I saw a big truck with an italian plaque and i heard people speaking italian. Nosy as I am, I went and asked where they were from, what were they doing in glasgow, etc... It came out that they were building contractors, and were in Glasgow converting some properties... one of the builders was a young guy and he spoke to me in his dialect from veneto ( God knows why he would address me in dialect instead of in Italian as we were strangers in a road in Glasgow, but never mind... )... so I guessed the first sentence but then I had to ask him to speak italian as I couldn't understand him...so even people from the north of italy can't understand each others... immagine a guy from Rome, he heard a weird accenthe thought, surely, from the north!!!

[QUOTE=latoca]so I guessed the first sentence but then I had to ask him to speak italian as I couldn't understand him...so even people from the north of italy can't understand each others... immagine a guy from Rome, he heard a weird accenthe thought, surely, from the north!!![/QUOTE]

Is John's misuse of ellipsis becoming infectious?

[url]http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/ellipsis.htm[/url]

Anyway returning to the point, in Pescara there's a joke told in dialect and Italian that sadly, I can't reproduce accurately. A villager from near Pescara goes to Rome for a trip and on his return asks for a ticket at the station. The ticket clerk stares at him for a time then says 'Foreigners should use the next window.' "

sorry if my english is not perfect... I am italian you know... I wish you could be slighly more understanding...

Sorry Paola, it's not your English that I was commenting on, it's the infectious use of ellipsis, three dots (...) after every sentence. This isn't normal in either Italian or English and it looks like you've picked up John's habit of punctuating his typing like this. If you are trying to learn or improve English it's not a good habit to get into.

Your English is good, I wouldn't like to see you lose your clarity and simplicity of expression by picking up what's simply a bad habit from someone else.

ups. I am afraid I used the three points before, even in Italian.
I used them to indicate a suspension. I understand they are not to be used if writing a formal letter. Emails are somehow an informal way of communication, it is almost just a transcription of a conversation. So as in a conversation the flow of words is interrupted by new thoughts, sudden changes of subject, in the same way that is allowed in an email. That is, of course, my opinion.

what do you think? more on the accademia della crusca side?

[QUOTE=latoca]what do you think? more on the accademia della crusca side?[/QUOTE]
I'm afraid so. I'm old, grammar and punctuation were strictly taught in my day and I can't set those lessons completely aside. I admit I make terrible grammatical errors myself all the time and I try to correct my bad habits. Like you with English I suspect, my eagerness to speak colloquial Italian leads me to to try to speak in slang and dialect which makes my Italian friends roll around laughing. The best advice I had when I was learning German was to keep it simple, keep it accurate and to be more correct than a native speaker of the language. Whatever, I didn't mean to upset you I was just trying to give a small push towards current usage.

No wonder my call for short stories had so little success, everbody is afraid of the academics to come forth with their corrections. For the free flow of information and ideas to flurish we must refrain from being critical of the way things are said, as long as the words are not insulting. If a person wants to perfect his/her use of a language, let them take a formal course of instruction.

[QUOTE=FrancisM]No wonder my call for short stories had so little success,[/QUOTE]
Oh don't be silly Francis. You surely cannot expect that you demand to be entertained by stories and that people will then supply them for you? You can buy the book when it's published, and I suspect many others are thinking the same way.

Why not publish your stories rather than repeatedly asking people to give you theirs?

hey let's not get nasty!
just take it easy....

Paola

[QUOTE=lotaresco]Oh don't be silly Francis. You surely cannot expect that you demand to be entertained by stories and that people will then supply them for you? You can buy the book when it's published, and I suspect many others are thinking the same way.

Why not publish your stories rather than repeatedly asking people to give you theirs?[/QUOTE]

Lotaresco, if anyone is being silly here it is you. Francis has every right to ask for users anecdotes and stories. Those who wish to provide them can, those who don't want to participate in a specific thread can speak with their silence.

In relation to your lesson on grammer, there is really no need to correct forum members. Their is little point in it and serves - in the end - as an exercise to dampen discussion and patronise. The point of internet-based forums is precisely to facilitate speedy and informal communication and build a sense of community. As far as grammer itself goes, language is dynamic and computer mediated communication has changed alot of the formal rules of corresponding.

Francis, as it goes, I'm an academic and don't have such anal quibbles!

Russ

[b]Lotaresco,[/b]
[b]For your info, I have published a number of my experiences in short story form, perhaps you missed them. You can locate these by looking for the threads started by FrancisM. On the other hand, if you do not care to read them, I understand. But, before suggesting that somebody should perform a certain act, it would be nice if you first researched to ensure you have a valid point. It is that simple.[/b]

[b]Having said the above, I would like to assure you, I always respect your opinion and that of all the forum members, no matter how it is presented.[/b]

Russ,
You make a lot of sense! I particularly enjoyed your ending sentence.

without wishing to change the call for short stories and also the subject of the post.. i find myself becoming part of the discussion...... unlike some members of the forum i do not count dots or correct spellings ... i have better things to do.... i think you will find that its a sign of welcome when you receive corrective grammatical comments from some members and if you can get over the traumatic effects generated by feeling like you are back at school with some fussy little schoolmaster rapping you over the hand with a ruler you will all continue to post and look forward to lessons on grammer from those that have not much else to say in the world ..... i have tried this time to randomise these dreaded dots.. maybe... it will provide more interest in the counting exercise........ and as in all posts i have not bothered with the caps key ....indeed i have taped it over and only use this keyboard for italymag postings just to annoy those of you who worry over my abuse of written english...... i am proud to be considered the trend setter in the dot scene....... but hardly consider myself worthy of the accolade.... unless maybe there is a prize associated with it....

[QUOTE=Gesturi]Lotaresco, if anyone is being silly here it is you.[/quote]
You are of course welcome to your opinion no matter how wrong it is.

[quote] Francis has every right to ask for users anecdotes and stories.[/quote]
Correct, he has every right to [B]ask[/B] he has no right to demand, harangue, and even insult in an attempt to force people to publish their experiences.

[quote]Those who wish to provide them can, those who don't want to participate in a specific thread can speak with their silence.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, and those who don't agree with someone else can take their own medicine and speak with their silence. But I suspect that you intend such a course of action to be a one-way street.

Francis, took up your challenge to read your threads, so, here's my little story...

It all seemed so simple really, when your son and his mate are over, drive over to Naples and pick up the puppy, errrm, no, the guy who breeds them realised that the pup hadn't been injected, or tatooed.
OK, so get the train across, they're fast, clean cheap, why not, booking the round trip is easy enough although you have to visit the station to book cause the Trenitalia english site keeps sticking in 2002, but, never mind, you can check out the parking and the woman is a great help with the tickets, the round trip only costs €62 (equivalent distance in england would cost 150 pounds ish),
full of anticipation, early the next morning you set off in the car to Porto S. Giorgio, half way there, the Carabinieri (at6.10am !!!) stop you to check the paperwork, there are no problems, but, it still takes them 15 minutes to check your licence, which means you arrive at the station just as your train leaves, errrr...
the next train gets you to Ancona 10 minutes after the train to Rome leaves, no problem, when's the next one? 3 hours, can I still get back tonight, WELLllll, yes, BUT, not to P:S:Giorgio, we can get you to San Benedetto at 30 mins. past midnight, organise a pick up from Marco, "sure, I'll be there", then ask the girl to book the new tickets, wellllll, best not, as I will only have 15 minutes in Naples, and if any of the trains are late.... better book in Naples, arrange to meet Arnaldo with the puppy at the new time and wait for the train to Rome, to connect with the Napoli train, this ttrain on time, fast, gets in on time, wowww, 30 minutes later, a train pulls onto the Napoli platform at the correct time, BUT, the sign changes to Bolognia, the computer simultaniously updates to show all trains to Naples 1 hour late...
Ahh, BUT, there IS a train to Naples ready to leave NOW, BUT, it doesnt stop at Avesa station, BUT, Arnaldo said he could meet me in Naples Central, negotiate with a fine Trenitalia man, who tells me to get on car 8, find a seat and he will sort me out, telephone Arnaldo, yelling Napoli cental, leaving Roma NOW...
the extra charge is about 12 euro, nearly kiss the man, arrive in the biggest station I have seen in many a while, which is called Piazza Garibaldi apparently, cant see anyone carrying a puppy, or anything, so ring Arnaldo, who, it seems is in exactly the same place as me, see, a stonking Whippet (It's Spencer, says I ) and meet Arnaldo, Anna LIse, his lovely wife and Ricardo, their smashing sprog, and, MY PUPPY...
OK, about getting back tonight, not possible, it's now 5.35pm., Good news though, every day, except Tuesday, there is a bus from just outside the station to Le Marche, which leaves at 6pm. and, arrives P:S:Giorgio at 10.30pm, but , of course, it is bloody Tuesday...
So, Arnoldo says, come and stay with us and I will sort out the trip back tomorrow, so I get to stay with a lovely Italian family, nice meal, meet loads of whippets and a Great Dane who's bigger than Napoli station, get taught to cross the road in Naples, get driven through Napoli by a Neapolitan (STEEP learning curve), and have a thoroughly nice time, this morning at 6.15, leave the house, breakfast in a bar, book the journey (Got reimbursed for all unused tickets), every train on time all three links made arrive back P.S.Giorgio just after one and drive home, have a wry smile at the Carabinieri doing paperwork checks at the end of the Strada Bianca in Francavilla, and, as I write this, Neo is curled up on my feet, the other dogs have been fed and I'm off for a shower.
BUT, almost every train I was on was full, they were cheap to use and Very clean, people took their rubbish with them, never did find out what caused the delay, but had a good time anyway.
That was last June. If any one wants to see young Neo as a pup, [url]www.sobresalto.it[/url] his kennel name is Sobresalto Pay per view "P" litter. If you want to see him as he is now, wellllllllll, Piazza Marconi in beautiful Francavilla D'Ete, he allows me to accompany him on his morning stroll. :D

I cant help but notice that it's always the men who get involved in the spats.....

[QUOTE=rachel]I cant help but notice that it's always the men who get involved in the spats.....[/QUOTE]
That's because we have the bigger handbags.

Will, when born, the breeder names the dog for the Kennel, normally starting each litter name with the same letter, this name is also the registered name for showing purposes.
For convenience, the owner then gives the puppy their "everyday" name, so, I bought "Sobresalto Pay Per View", but called him "Neo". Sometimes, he even answers, and, as I am originally a Geordie, I will eventually buy a flat cap and some pigeons...

NOW, can we get back to some squabbling.,.,.,.,.!!!

Are you not a geordie anymore then bonny lad.

When you used to be a geordie where were you from. :confused:

Thank you George, a truly fast paced and interesting story. One could feel the beat of your story. Wow! What a trip! You really must like dogs.

[QUOTE=FrancisM]Over 300 readers of the original posting, and only two people live a life interesting enough to write about it. I cannot believe this is reality! Surely, somewhere out there in the Italia Cyberspace there must be some interesting stories to be told. We will not judge your grammar or spelling, we promise. All we want is to learn from your experiences made while either living or vacationing in Italia. Is that too much to ask?

Please let your stories become our stories.

Thanks for trying![/QUOTE]

Will, when you quoted me you left out an important part, namely, "I cannot believe this is reality!" Please see above. By leaving this phrase out you put a negative spin on what I was trying to say. I am sure, this was not your intention.

Lotaresco, I have never demanded of anyone to post a story! I have coaxed the community a few times; yes I am guilty of that. Also, be assured I will not use any of these stories in my writings, as my interest and publication is in the technical fields. In fact, my book on Trigonometry is listed on Amazon. Quarrel with me as much as you like, but stay fair, that is all I ask of you.

[QUOTE=FrancisM]Lotaresco, I have never demanded of anyone to post a story! I have coaxed the community a few times; yes I am guilty of that. [/QUOTE]
Hmm, coaxed in the same sense that my father used to "coax" a recalcitrant and rusty screw into place with a 10lb hammer, possibly.

I didn't have any objection to you asking people for stories, however when you didn't get the response you wanted you popped up here and there like a jack in the box and hammered on and on about the subject. It was at that point that it started to feel oppressive. Someone else said that if one did not wish to contribute a story one could remain silent. Sorry but that wasn't how it felt. If you recall you started to try what I would call "grooming" that is, if in another thread someone told a story you patted on them on the head and repeated a "request" for more stories in your thread. TBH it came across as monomania.

It looks like what you call "coaxing" I call demanding.

Rachel,
Only people who care for each other get into spats. People you do not care about, you simply ignore. I hope this answers your concern.

Lotaresco,
In one of your postings regarding the promotion of understanding you confessed, "I've been a salt water sailor for most of my life and it hasn't left a lot of time over for winter sports."

Guess what, I have been a salt water sailor myself. I have sailed a Bruce King designed Ericson 32 "Phoenician" (which I purchased new in 1984) for 20 years. I had this baby out, with some students, in as much as 42 knot winds; what a thrill that was. I have photos of this outing, some daredevil photographer was also out in his Zodiac. This man had guts! I am sorry to say, I sold her June 2004.

Was it not D'Israeli who said, Success is assured through constancy to purpose?

Wey man, Gatesidd man, ye naaa.. then Ahh went alll posh lyke and moved ti jesmind,then doon ti chester le street,

and then I carried out missionary work (bringing the message of geordie land) in York, then Sheffield.

Just seen Eric Burdon over here, as part of the Blues month in Le Marche, eeeee it brought it all back, outside the Gogo, bribing my way in with Green Shield Stamps...Ohhhhh, happy days, off for a happy cry now :D

Wey eye man, bonny ladd!! Ah smoke tabs and drink beer me. Me and wor lass is tryin tu sell wor hoose in Gossy and gan tu Le Marche just like yea are. Are yea in Le Marche like. Wu div'nt na when wu can sell the hoose. It's doin' wor heeds in.

Ah, There you are, Francavilla D'Ete , on a small country road, just south of Marcerata. It looks a lovely spot. We have a house Near Urbania/Urbino.

take care my friend, wish us luck. As for Eric 'We gotta get out of this place if its the last think we ever do....'

Ian and Sandra

Good Luck with your sale, crikey, I remember a time when folks would be queuing up to buy anything in Gosforth, we sold our Jesmond house in thirteen minutes, the purchaser stopped my wife inside the estate agents as she was giving them the details, came straight up with her and offered the asking price plus 10% there and then.( and we made around 30k. onit in just three years!!!)
Funnily enough, Eric did actually say that last week...

[QUOTE=FrancisM]Lotaresco,
In one of your postings regarding the promotion of understanding you confessed, "I've been a salt water sailor for most of my life and it hasn't left a lot of time over for winter sports."[/QUOTE]

I have a Jeanneau Eolia which is more of a Mediterranean boat than one suited to the Channel and North Atlantic. I'mcurrently trying to work out a way to get her to Italy, but I suspect both geography and bureaucracy wil be against me. The Italian tax authorities, like the French like to try to double-charge for VAT and importing a boat makes them start rubbing their hand in anticipation.

And sailing a small boat from the UK to Italy is a tad more of a challenge than I had in mind. Especially when the port in Italy is on the "wrong" side. Rcently I'ave started to learn to fly and I'm thinking of selling my boat and using the money for funding the course or possibly putting it to one side for the rental of an aeroplane. Abruzzo seems to have a lot of PPL flyers and I would love the chance to fly across the Apennines and into place like L'Aquila.

From sailing to flying is essentially only a 90 degree switch, i.e. instead of using a vertical wing (airfoil) one would use a horizontal one; the Bernoulli principle still applies. I wish you good luck with your plans in whichever direction they will take you. But, I can assure you would miss your yacht, I know; I miss mine a lot, and only extreme circumstances made me sell her.

From a request for short stories, to a demand for more dynamism and more imaginative and confident responses from us all, and then a spat (about language usage and general sourness (about your original request) between yourself and Lotaresco. Then, a couple of Geordies taking in tougues, and then we are on beautiful yachts cutting through the med, large tall masted things, Tomahawks and Sabres and talking about flying and much, much more.

In the last two weeks or so this thread has has attracted 44 responses, (45 with this), and 1150 views or there abouts - and I for one, have been part of it: many times I've held my tougue - and in the main pleased that I did so. The feelings that I had - yes feelings - for some respondants, seemed to evaporate the following day.

So Francis M. I think you got your wish, but not perhaps in the way that you imagined. Its become a short story in itself, I could see it on the Edinburgh fringe(comedy of course) - that was my idea you'll have to pay me if you use it.

stay well

Ian and Sandra

[QUOTE=FrancisM]Let us bring some life into this forum, tell us your most interesting, funny or sad experience in Italia. One, your story will entertain us, and two, perhaps we can learn something from it. Happy writing![/QUOTE]

My posting achieved in the main its objective, 1. we got to read a number of interesting stories, and 2. it brought added life into this forum. The number of readers and postings attest to this fact. And, finally it showed that even when opinions differed, civility was not murdered. Frankly, I had no preconceived expectations, I have lived long enough to know it is always best to expect the unexspected.

For those of you who participated in this thread, by either reading or responding, I thank you all, and I look forward to other lively inputs on future threads by anyone.