1013 De-Anglicise me!

I find just waving them (hands that is) about in an anxious yet dignified fashion seems to cover most conversations...

Gestures was one of the topics we asked our night school teacher to cover during our last course. We did and she drew some diagrams. Not very useful on a forum, though!

Try this :

[url]http://italian.about.com/library/handgestures/blgesturesindex.htm[/url]

Lesley

[QUOTE=tuscanhills]In trying to integrate, I have found that a few key words are really useful (yes, I'm afraid I'm not based in Italy and struggle with the language) in my never-ending quest to be understood.

I have improved by knowledge of basic grammar, added in a sprinkling of colloquial words & phrases, and tried to add a bit of Italian "woof" to my Anglo-Saxon diction/pronunciation (er, when I say "woof", think if saying it with your hands on your hips and a thrust of the pelvis; more Lord Flashart from Blackadder than the bloke on Rocky Horror Picture show!)

But still seem to come across as a straneri who knows a bit of grammar, a few colloquial phrases & ants in his pants.

I would really like to hear from anyone who could help me with those all important hand gestures that add to the mix. Not a simple task for a message board, but I'm sure we can all rise to the challenge?

Oh, and no Carry On jokes about hand gestures, eh?[/QUOTE]

To be frank, I find this message about ackward. You are making a stereotype out of Italians being all pizza and mandolino and talking with their hands, and english people being all rigid an so on. You are english and will never be italian, as I am Italian and will never be english. So what?
I live happily here as an Italian and I do not feel people treat me in a different way for not being born here. The same with you. If you can speak italian, and can communicate with people, you will be accepted in the community as you are, and they will enjoy the fact that you are english as from a different culture and with different and exciting point of views.

NO? why do you think you have to omologate yourself to the italian stereotype?

Paola

Hey Paola, you totally misunderstand my motives. I have a desire to communicate & make myself understood, that's all. I am not trying to be Italian (or rejecting being English), and I am categorically NOT stereo-typing Italians in anyway.

In striving to communicate I am not trying to BE Italian. If I learn colloquial phrases, am I trying to be a local? No way! The same with gestures.

[QUOTE=latoca]NO? why do you think you have to omologate yourself to the italian stereotype?[/QUOTE]
Well sometimes body language helps to communicate and the English seem to give off the wrong vibes at times. I get told in Italy that I am always calm even when things are going wrong. It's not true, I simply don't know how to wave my hands in an appropriate manner. Having driven one of our suppliers to frustration in recent months, I have a vague feel for how it is done, when really angry you have to wave your hands in the air or everyone thinks that you are still calmly discussing the subject. But how to wave the hands? And when?

[QUOTE=tuscanhills]Hey Paolo[/QUOTE]
Has Paola had a sex change? :rolleyes:

Ooops! Corrected, apologies for the slip of the brain.

No sex change yet!
I suppose my fiance wouldn't agree, not three weeks before the wedding!

Sorry if I misunderstood...
How to use your body language... it will come with time, I suppose.
But not because you study other people's body language, but just because it will became yours through habit I suppose...

I am sure that your calmness is very effectve with people when things are going wrong... they will be wandering what cards have you got in sleeve....

Paola

An English tourist in Italy consults his phrase book to ask direstions to the nearest travel agency to try and prebook tickets for the Uffizi. He sees and obvious local man carrying two enormous watermelons. He delivers his dialogue with perfect diction and intonation; and the man stops to help. After a few short incomprehensible sighs, the Englishman realises the man has no hope of indicating the route with two great watermelons under his arms and gestures the man to let him hold them. The man smiles and hands over his load, outstretches his hands to the sky and tells him. "Non lo so!"

(It's one of my Dad's favourite jokes and much better in person.)

Maria Lucia

i have found that the second bottle of wine consumed adds heaps to communication facilitation...others may have to get beyond my limitations....but there it is....you have to break down inhibitions.....and just get on with it..... having an italian wife made life easy with beauracracy and aided our official passage into italian life..... being able to outdrink the locals has aided my passage from stranger into cantina companion to most of the village...... in fact now rather sadly as i have passed the test of still being able to stand after several litres of their home brew they have decided to either conserve their stocks.... or i have seemed to have passed the test where i am allowed to drink normal amounts....... though their normal would have my english doctor sending me off to alcoholic anonnnnymous ....i think....so forget the grammar...and almost all other tutorials that might come into your head and get a good head for wine.... much more pleasurable and after the third or fourth glass you might surprise yourself about your capacity to speak rubbish in any language let alone italian..... as some who read my postings here might agree... or maybe all of you.... lotaresco ... please dont reply... i already know

LOL John!

Thrilled to discover I'm not the only one who thinks they become incredibly eloquent after a glass or two..........
Doesn't stop me trying tho!!

The thing that does worry me .... is that Italians don't really 'do' drinking and anyone who is seen to be 'under the influence' is deemed 'undesirable'.
Is that true??

Not saying I am uncontrollably drunk all of the time but now a little worried that I am not 'stitched-up Italian' enough.......

Does anyone know what I'm getting at here???

Lesley

[QUOTE=Maria Lucia]An English tourist in Italy consults his phrase book to ask direstions to the nearest travel agency to try and prebook tickets for the Uffizi. He sees and obvious local man carrying two enormous watermelons. He delivers his dialogue with perfect diction and intonation; and the man stops to help. After a few short incomprehensible sighs, the Englishman realises the man has no hope of indicating the route with two great watermelons under his arms and gestures the man to let him hold them. The man smiles and hands over his load, outstretches his hands to the sky and tells him. "Non lo so!"

(It's one of my Dad's favourite jokes and much better in person.)

Maria Lucia[/QUOTE]

The first time I went to London, I was 18 then, 24 years ago, I needed to find a post office.
I saw a policeman and with better english I said:
"excuse me sir, where could I find a post office ?"
He looked at me as i was a martian anfd made no effort to understand what I needed
So I showed him some postcards and shyly repeated "... a post office..."
He finally realized what I meant and annoyed by my stupidity said
"... ah, you need a pOst office" pronouncing the "o" of post like a shooting.

This was very british, to me.
In Italy the policeman would probablly have tried to understand the tourist with his bad pronounce, helping even more of the necessary.
In London the policeman expected me to explain what I wonted.
Well I don't think he was rude, I think that it was a demonstration of what the society expects from people and vice versa:
in Italy we think that there always be someone who'll help us somehow: parents, family, friends, church (for the belivers) governament etc and this is a good thing, but the risk is a social laziness
in England you are more alone facing up the problems and this is good, but the risk is a social loneliness.
Of course this is a mere simplification, but....

Yes, I know what you mean , we have met it here in Puglia. Very few of the women drink alcohol at all ( perhaps a small glass with meals but NEVER socially as we call it !!!- I expect there are a few exceptions but generally this seems to be the case )
Our male neighbours only drink wine with their meals , as I found out when i suggested they pop in for a glass of wine....they prefer the cafe' !!!

Doesn't bother me too much as I can't drink much alcohol now anyway, but Alex likes a tipple and most of our friends like a good drink , especially on holiday.

the only exception I've seen is the workmen...the guy who came to rotivate , I'm sure pulled out a plastic bottle of red wine at about 6am !!! and the builders all liked a beer ( but just the one !) when they had finished for the day .

There again, there was an article in the local paper the other day, expressing concern about ' the younger generation, especially young women, drinking to excess...just like in England !!!)

I'd be interested to hear anyone elses comments.

I had the same problems when I first moved to the Uk..

things change here in scotland, as people really try to reach out and help, maybe because nobody understand them outside scotland...

My Boyfriend and i were in chicago, we got in a cab and Kevin told the driver the address we were going to.... The cab driver did understand him and asked him if he could speak english at all...

That was funny!

Paola

Watch the movie "Il Postino"; the actor Massimo is a master of hand gestures! And, the movie is not bad either.

drinking seems to be an older generation thing..... and is done only on days when it is either too hot or too cold to do anything else..... and always commences with the provido that because the wine is home produced you can drink gallons without ill affect which theory you begin to test.... it is always done after eating also...

in our village near enough everyone has their cantina.... some slightly larger and more comfortable than others...... i guess there are about ten or so of us here that visit these places and are socialy acceptable as part of this club....

one of my favorite ones though is outside a cantina....one house on the edge of the village has a marvellous view of the gran sasso range.... right in your face and we all sit on the home made bench there drinking and facing the mountains..... an almost spiritual experience in more than one sense...... the only problem being he doesnt make the best of the wine.... but later on when we start on the bread olive oil and salt ... it doesnt seem to matter too much....

to the point i hear myself being abmonished.... well the point is that socialising leads to communication ...not the other way around.... its no use learning italian from a book if you are not out there trying to explain why you have moved to the place and how wonderful it is..... i will never speak italian properly.... i will never write in italian.... but i can go out with italians and amuse them with my bastardised attempts at their language which in my case tends to be a mix of dialect and italian.... its what i have learnt.... ask me to conjugate the verb to be and i would be lost.... i work out ways of talking about the past in the present by adding defining words.... its easier than learning all the tenses... there are also lots of sounds which you can make which can add agreement or not depending on how they are said.....i sort of click tutt with teeth clenched can mean no or yes and saves on sentences.... so often my converstaion can be even more monosymbolic ..... if that is an english word.... sometimes i fear i will not be able to communicate in either language as english becomes rusty and i forget even the most simple words and italian remains as a second non complete language for me..... or maybe its just alcohol poisoning

[QUOTE=FrancisM]Watch the movie "Il Postino"; the actor Massimo is a master of hand gestures! And, the movie is not bad either.[/QUOTE]

As long as I don't have to try to follow Roberto Benigni in La Vita e Bella!

[QUOTE=alex and lyn]Yes, I know what you mean , we have met it here in Puglia. Very few of the women drink alcohol at all ( perhaps a small glass with meals but NEVER socially as we call it !!!- I expect there are a few exceptions but generally this seems to be the case )
Our male neighbours only drink wine with their meals , as I found out when i suggested they pop in for a glass of wine....they prefer the cafe' !!!

Doesn't bother me too much as I can't drink much alcohol now anyway, but Alex likes a tipple and most of our friends like a good drink , especially on holiday.

the only exception I've seen is the workmen...the guy who came to rotivate , I'm sure pulled out a plastic bottle of red wine at about 6am !!! and the builders all liked a beer ( but just the one !) when they had finished for the day .

There again, there was an article in the local paper the other day, expressing concern about ' the younger generation, especially young women, drinking to excess...just like in England !!!)

I'd be interested to hear anyone elses comments.[/QUOTE]

It is such a different drinking culture, isn't it? I was suprised the first time I went to Italy how little my (now) wifes brothers and sisters drank. As young people I assumed they'd be out trying to drink as much white lightening (or other cheap ciders) as possible...but alas... ;)

To be honest, one of the thing I really love about italy is not drinking to get drunk, but as either part of the meal or to socialise. John is spot on about the socialising part. I've made my best linguisitc stides after one too many glasses of the local tipple (and Limocello, with which I have started a passionate love affair). Plus I hardly ever seem allowed to buy a drink in Sorgono as we don't live there permanently their natural courtesy takes over, so I get 90 year old locals (or so they look...) offering to buy me a beer (actually insisiting, there is no saying no..) and telling me - after my polite protestations - that I can buy them a drink when they come to the UK! I do try to say no...but...

Whenever I've gone out - whether it be Cagliari (i.e. city) or Pamela's small hometown i've never felt threatened or intimidated. This may be to do with where the family lives, but i'm sure that in genreral terms this culture is so far removed from the UK's binge drinking. Even where I live in Aberystwyth - a fairly small UK town - it can get quite lairy late at night when the pubs chuck out. Even more interesting are my wife's comments on young english girls dess sense...but that's another thread ;)

One curious thing for me, is it just Sardinia or do other regions put red wine in the fridge!!!??? Now this I can never forgive.... :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Gesturi]
One curious thing for me, is it just Sardinia or do other regions put red wine in the fridge!!!??? Now this I can never forgive.... [img]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img][/QUOTE]

Gesturi,
In hot or very warm climates it makes a lot of sense to cool red wine, which is best between 55-65 degrees F. Thus, cold wine around 40 deg. F., can always warm-up to the right temperature, but wine that is too warm cannot cool down in a warm house, unless it is first placed into the fridge. Makes sense?

[QUOTE=FrancisM]Gesturi,
In hot or very warm climates it makes a lot of sense to cool red wine, which is best between 55-65 degrees F. Thus, cold wine around 40 deg. F., can always warm-up to the right temperature, but wine that is too warm cannot cool down in a warm house, unless it is first placed into the fridge. Makes sense?[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Francis

Makes perfect sense (my wife has told me this before)...just seems such a sin! ;)

Am working at the moment (supposedly), so a glass of the red stuff would be most welcome. Plus, the waether has been crap here in Aber...so i'm very jealous of all you guys in Italy... :)

[QUOTE=Gesturi]
One curious thing for me, is it just Sardinia or do other regions put red wine in the fridge!!!??? Now this I can never forgive.... :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Chilled Red wine is becoming more common these days - a couple of years ago I was in an 'up market' restaurant in France [ where Chef wouldn't do me a "well done" steak] and I was served chilled red for the first time. When I got over the initial shock - I found it quite acceptable, although I still prefer a warm red, or a cold white.

[QUOTE=alan haynes]Chilled Red wine is becoming more common these days - a couple of years ago I was in an 'up market' restaurant in France [ where Chef wouldn't do me a "well done" steak] and I was served chilled red for the first time. When I got over the initial shock - I found it quite acceptable, although I still prefer a warm red, or a cold white.[/QUOTE]

I must admit, it isn't too bad. Particularly when it comes to cheaper table wines it seems to even add a little something. In Sardinia they drink it out of these very small glasses, almost like small whisky glasses. Is that an experience anyone else has?

in connection with this thread,one of the english broadsheets reported today that for a typical english man,40 per cent of all drinking occasions involve five or more drinks.in france the figure is 9 per cent and in italy 13 per cent.

Just follow this link, and enjoy.

[url="http://italian.about.com/library/nosearch/blgestures001.htm"]http://italian.about.com/library/nosearch/blgestures001.htm[/url]

About 20 minutes in the fridge seems to bring out some of the more delicate flavours in a bottle of nice red wine.

Maria Lucia