1030 Calculator for the costs of buying a home

I like it!

It does not factor in the cost of my wife's renewed obsession with handbags though(!)

Liked your 'Buying a Home in Italy' web site very much. Used the calculator and it proved to be extremely accurate, for our recent debacle anyway - we completed on a purchase just at the end of June '05.

I liked the web site
It gives correct informations in a simple way
i liked specially the words: "[I]Buying a home in Italy is a simple and safe procedure, governed by laws to protect both parties."[/I]
i understand that an important step like buying an house is a stressing matter; more than all if you are a foreign people totally ignorant about new and unknown laws
so is really important to make clear that all the system; even if it appears full of formalities is built to give guarantees:
you all have to remember that the post contractual litigation in italy in very low; thaks to the presence of a public official like a notary (ok I know it sounds partizan) and the formalities of land register (coservatoria and catasto) and contrcts

Marc.

You and I have had our disagreements in the past but in putting my professional hat on whilst looking at your site, I have the following objective observations to make:

You state that “there is a lot of out-of-date and inexpert advice on the internet” but I really don’t see anything different on your site. There are number of web sites that contain in fact the same generic descriptions of the house buying process. I know that it is difficult (and at times even impossible) to cover everything in detail but you shouldn’t be critical of others when all you are really doing is copying them.

Calculator. Most models (there seem to be a number of them on the internet) are fine but they have their limitations insofar that they oversimplify reality. You don’t make allowances for other variables such as the imposta catastale and imposta ipotecaria (important omissions) for example. These vary of course depending on whether you are dealing with a prima casa or not. What about the bolli di trascrizioni? Furthermore, what happens when you are buying a property from a company? What about land? What about IVA and the oneri (fees) associated with Legge No. 10 28 Jan 1977 (Bucalossi) with regards to change of use from one class to another? What about the cost of utility connection? All of these variables need to be considered in the sums. It is not just about the initial purchase.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, by using the term declared price and openly offering a method for calculating an example with a declared price, what you are doing in effect is implying that this is a legally acceptable practice when in reality it is not. Be careful, this can lead to the incurrence of REATTI TRIBUTARI, as per Frode Fiscale, which the law regulates in accordance to Decreto Legislativo no. 74 of 10/03/2000.

By broadcasting this sort of information on your web site you could be in for some “cavoli amari” if someone should see it and report it by calling 117 la Finanza. Be careful.

As far as contracts are concerned, again you can download a number of standard forms via the Internet. I have previously raised the issue of potential problems associated with using a standard form especially when you consider that a fair number of proposte d’acquisto, contratti preliminari and other important contractual documents with far reaching legal consequences are drawn up by people with a very little understanding of the main legal provisions pertaining to Italian property law. Moreover, clarity and precision is of the essence. Contractual documents that are governed by different juridical principles to ours are best left in the hands of legal professionals.

You only need consider the difference between the juridical principles concerning the deposit (caparra), what they mean and what the consequences are in the event of a material breach of contract to see what I am driving at. You should also explain the difference between the promessa di vendita and compromesso, although compromesso is not a juridical term and is really therefore inappropriate.

Whilst on the subject of preliminary contracts did you know that Decreto Legislativo 122 of 20/6/2005, which came into effect on the 21 July 2005, actually sets out specific norms with regards to the drafting of preliminary contracts? Contracts may be declared void if such regulatory guidelines are not adhered to. Bear this in mind if you are going to include printable forms on your site.

You cover yourself with a disclaimer but I could challenge this on the basis that if you are unprepared to assume responsibility for the text provided, and for any adverse consequences as a result thereof, should you be offering this sort of information and advice in the first place?

In short, be different from the others if you want your site to stand out.

I welcome improvements and as you already know, feel strongly about the lack of professionalism that exists in some areas of the real estate sector. You may think that I am being pedantic but I make no apology for being direct. Forum members who know me and deal with me personally know that I am a stickler for precision when it comes to providing information and professional advice and guidance

(personal remark retracted)
I take it you won't want to syndicate it for use on Magical Marche then Charles!

Really Marc…is that the best you can do in your defence? Say what you like but I’m sticking to my guns!

The mere fact that all you can do is take personal snipes (not the first time despite being proven wrong) and hide behind Notaio’s comments proves that you are not very professional and that you really don’t know what you are talking about. This is very evident from the quality of information contained on your site.

Again, before you go off criticising others try and be original and a little more accurate for a change!

We tried you site Mark and have already bought and know your calc's were spot on. Surely your site is meant as a [B]guide only[/B] and so long as that fact is highlighted, what's the problem.

P

I’m all for improvements but only if they provide credible alternatives (not copies) to what is already readily available.

There are a number of web sites and books that provide guidelines on the subject of buying a property in Italy and I know that such guides cannot take into account every single aspect. I agree that buying a property in Italy can be as safe as buying one back in the UK, but only if one is prudent, takes a common sense approach and seeks proper professional advice. Overseas buyers can and do experience problems when they receive inadequate and misleading information and poor advice. This is an undisputable fact.

If Marc is unwilling to take responsibility for the information and advice he is publishing, considering that it not only omits other equally important purchase cost elements, but also by implication appears to encourage tax evasion, he cannot expect to go unchallenged. Moreover, if he cannot take constructive criticism, then he shouldn’t be inviting people to let him know if something is incorrect.

i havent even bothered to look at the site mark.... bought the house and done it...... but from other comments it obvoiuosly has a value ....comments from people that know what they are talking about..... so i would say that anything that is available to clarify and guide people that all too often feel a bit lost in the process is a good thing....

charles i think is being slightly pedantic although i would regard his comments ...... regarding the house buying process not your site... as valid.... it will and often does become more complicated.... but in general house buying here is as simple and as regulated as anywhere...... to quote legalities in a country where the expectation is that it is normal to evade your taxes is slightly ingenuous..... why should foreign buyers follow the rules if no one else does....

in this arguement i would say therefore that you are both right.... your site providing a useful service.... and it doesnt really matter if there are other sites which do the same.... as long as any are available.... i would say from charles standpoint you often hear on this site of the problematic house purchases and in a sense where charles is right is that there is no way a general guide to buying and costs can help or advise in these situations... i believe he worries more than is necessary but with reason as tales of exceptional costs and unscrupulous agents abound.... but we do not hear of those sales that go through without these problems.... the vast majority in fact.... so i know charles can speak for himself.... but i think he provides some of the best and clearest advice on this site on how to do everything exactly right and i would say if i did have a problem with a purchase i would be sending a PM to him and not to anyone else on this site to get sound advice.... as i think many of those with probs in their purchase have done.....

Well, I don't want to be part in any controversy, but we all have to consider that, normally, all the infromations we can find on the the Net are just general informations.
So we shouldn't expect to receive specific advices or an analitic explanation of all the variables related to a particular subject.
This amounts to real estate purchases, as medical or all others techical
matters: after all this is the reason way those subjects are entrust to professional men (or women) with peculiar and certified competences.

So a web site giving simple and general infomations (avoiding the risk to become simplistic) is welcome, as long as it hasn't the prsumptuousness to give all the infomations related to that specific matter.
This limitation should be highlighted of course, with the advice to ask for more accurate informations to people that dayly manage those matters, the professional one.

D'accordo, Notaio!

By the way, I just added a 'Print' button to the calculator, so now not only can you SEE the inaccurate results on the the screen, but you can keep a permanent record of them AND contribute to deforestation and global warming too :-)

[color=black][font=Times New Roman][size=3]I feel that although Marc's calculator is probably accurate for the majority of purchases it does not take into account the various different taxes associated with agricultural land, mountain land and the split between parcels of land that make up a property, therefore it will only be as good as the information you are able to put in. It also does not take account of the different taxes relating to who you purchase the property off i.e. a private seller, a company or a developer as I believe different taxes apply. Also the Notary fees are all based on a scale which I have not seen anywhere and as Notaio has stated elsewhere is not a percentage of the price. Most people will however shy away from the calculator that asks for 30 different inputs to give the result and getting all the different inputs from your agent may be a problem if they are not as good as they should be. All in all I feel I have to agree with Adriatica and hope that all concerned can now get along peacefully until the next little altercation[/size][/font][/color]

:)

If the calculator had had 30 inputs it would still not have covered all eventualities. Marc has made a good attempt at an almost impossible task.

In reality most home buyers should simply expect to pay 10-20% on top of the purchase price of their property for the various taxes, fees, and incidental expenses.

If at the very start of your house search you set a maximum budget, deduct 20% to keep in reserve for expenses such as travel, accommodation, exchange rate losses, banking costs, fees and taxes then there will be less surprises at the end of the day when you tally up what you have actually spent on your property.
If you have 200,000 Euro to purchase a house then you should not really be looking at properties over around 175000 Euro. Many people forget this and go vastly over budget.

Have to agree with adriatica's post and yes information from books or web pages should be taken as a guide BUT....

For the naive buyer information gained from these sources is all they have to go on. Therefore are reliant on, as notaio says "specific advice" by a professional. This is fine if they are genuine and competent professionals and all information has been given before signing anything. The problems start when they are not.

Most agents state it is not necessary to employ a lawyer because everything complies with Italian law but this does not actually help if the information provided before signing anything turns out to be an absolute load of rubbish.

So my point being, it would be helpful if maximum costs were also made clear because that way it doesn’t become a shock if this situation occurred. Also the same goes for the compromesso a more comprehensive example would give a better indication of what should be covered and omit what doesn’t apply.

For the knowledgeable about Italian real estate it may be obvious what can or can not be included but for the beginner it is not.

Charles is only trying to protect those people who read this forum by raising points that could cause confusion or even legal issues.

So rather, than retaliate with anger, can you not take constructive criticism and improve your web site to be the best.

[QUOTE=Marc]D'accordo, Notaio!

By the way, I just added a 'Print' button to the calculator, so now not only can you SEE the inaccurate results on the the screen, but you can keep a permanent record of them AND contribute to deforestation and global warming too :-)[/QUOTE]

To be honest Marc if you want to come accross as a professional this doesn't help your case. Charles may be accused of being pedantic but when it comes down to who to choose for advice...to me it is clear.

Legislation all’Italiana can be difficult to understand not only for non-Italians, but for Italians as well. Italy is flooded with prolific and messy laws and conflicting rules. The court system is virtually overburdened and constantly on the verge of chaos. No wonder people are confused and dissatisfied with Italy’s legal system. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

However, for those of us who are in the business of offering advice and guidance in all areas of conveyancing, the following must apply: Ignorantia juris non excusat - ignorance of the law excuses no one!

Yes, I agree that there is a load of rubbish out there and it doesn’t help when some people, however good their intentions may be, think they can publish information containing advice that is not only unsupported by relevant material, but most seriously of all, inapplicable in practice.

There is no denying that Marc has tried to warn readers and he has tried to keep his site up to date by encouraging feedback. But this is where it has gone wrong. His own information does in fact show a lack of understanding and worse still, he cannot take constructive advice. He should not criticise others. That’s a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

I think that most forum visitors are aware that I am not afraid of being direct and I am sorry if some members may find my style intimidating. However, there is no excuse for discourteous conduct.

Mark,

I don't know you personally, neither I know Charles beside the comments you both posted on the Forum. I don't have any personal experience with the Italian property although started to look for some nice and modest place for my retirement in a couple of years.

What I definitely know - is the Internet and computer sciences; I've been in this area for 30+ years and built dozens of websites for the largest financial clients in New York City area. Based on my experience with buying 4 houses in the US, I can't believe that the calculator with 4 input parameters may cover such a complicated process as buying a house in the foreign country, especially so notorious for bureaucracy and a multitude of laws and local rules as Italy. I've read a couple of books on the subject and even a necessary generic description I found there is much more complicated than the process you suggest. It may serve some useful purpose as a basic guidance but a potential buyer must be notified that at least 25% of a safe margin needs to be incorporated.

I don't want to be nasty, neither am I pedantic but I'm an Internet professional. I tried a property search on your site: when submitting a search for a town house or apartment in Le Marche between $100,000 and $300,000 (by the way, a currency converter from USD to Euro doesn't work) - received a "No property found" result. Does it mean that I have to forget about buying a property in Italy unless I'm filthy rich?

At the same time, I looked at the Charles' website. He provides a few very useful white papers with a detailed description of the process and most (not all !) associated costs. Yes, he's a bit pedantic and it may be a pain in the ... neck to work with him but I suggest a pedantic person when I'm spending my life savings for a decade or two I still have to live !

I believe that you are a very good professional but you definitely need to give your webmaster a hell of a run for the money you spent !

With no intent to offend anybody,

Mike

I have been on this forum for a couple of months now and was badly criticised when I openly stated that we had appointed Italian solicitors in England to oversee the transaction; now I feel that what Charles has been saying in several postings is, effectively, true and along the same lines of what posted in my other thread.

You can not rely on books or internet calculators to work out what the costs associated to the purchase process are, because there are too many variable factors which need to be considered on an individual basis.

The best option is to rely on professionals who are expert on this type of work (this is why I also suggested to instruct a law firm with a Real Estate Department and not a generalist Italian avvocato who may have never seen a compromesso before) and agree a set fee at the outset: you give them your business and you negotiate a set fee with them, so that you know that all your "legal" costs are included.

It will then be the solicitor who will appoint the Notaio, calculate the fees, the tax liability (a good solicitor should be able to minimise your tax bill without breaking the law and incurring into fiscal fraud though!), and then keep you informed of the costs as you go along.

Setting aside 15% of the property value should be a good indicator, regardless of any online calculators.

If you need a hip replacement, would you trust a search on google on how to do it or would you rather chose the best possible surgeon (at a cost) to carry out the replacement? None of us who are investing in the Italian Market are (alledgedly) below the property treshold, otherwise we would not be considering to buy a (most of the times) 2nd property abroad, therefore it seems natural than paying slightly more to manage the conveyancing process usually pays up for itself, as Charles quite correctly said.

Having used the Italian solicitors that Laura72 recommended I can only wholeheartedly agree with her! Yes, Marc's calculator can give you a very rough guide but the variables are so great you will only get the real picture from the professionals.
I know there are a number of contributors on here who proudly boast to not having used a solicitor but my view is that they should thank their lucky stars that it worked out. For us the bottom line was this - if we were buying a property in England we wouldn't even question using a solicitor. Why then when we are buying a property in another country whose laws we don't understand and whose language we don't speak very well would we even consider not using a solicitor? Some people seem concerned about the cost. We didn't use an agent in buying our property and the cost of the solicitor will be only about a third of what we would have had to pay an agent. I've got to say that I have a great deal more confidence in the advice we're getting from the solicitor than I would have had in an agent! I emailed our solicitor one night at 10.45 pm - his reply arrived back 5 minutes later and he followed it up with a phone call at 9.00 am the next day. I never came across service like that from an agent!

As Brendan points out, the biggest factor over which buyers have control is the Estate Agency fee. That's why this variable is selectable to as low as 0%, whilst less significant variations in taxes are aggregated into the Notarial fees and disbursements.
I'm not suggesting that anyone dispenses with the services of professional advisors, quite the opposite! Part of the point of the calculator is to is to give an indication of the consequences of following the route that Laura suggests compared with that which Brendan took.

[QUOTE=Laura72]I have been on this forum for a couple of months now and was badly criticised when I openly stated that we had appointed Italian solicitors in England to oversee the transaction;[/QUOTE]
No you weren't.

Can we now call you Pat, or will you insist on the full title....... :confused:

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]Can we now call you Pat, or will you insist on the full title....... :confused:[/QUOTE]
Il Postino?

Ohhhhh, mighty Patrician, I LOVE IT when you talk Italian, *swoons* :o Ohh bot, somebody recently said something about careful reading, didn't they black n white cats etc... ;)

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]Ohhhhh, mighty Patrician, I LOVE IT when you talk Italian, *swoons* :o Ohh bot, somebody recently said something about careful reading, didn't they black n white cats etc... ;)[/QUOTE]

Postino Pat, Postino Pat, Postino Pat ed il suo gatto nero e bianco,
Presto alla mattina,
Appena mentre il giorno sta albeggiando,
Prende tutti i sacchetti della posta in suo furgone.

And if you don't behave yourself I'll do "How much is that doggy in the window."

[QUOTE=brendangfc] We didn't use an agent in buying our property and the cost of the solicitor will be only about a third of what we would have had to pay an agent. I've got to say that I have a great deal more confidence in the advice we're getting from the solicitor than I would have had in an agent! I emailed our solicitor one night at 10.45 pm - his reply arrived back 5 minutes later and he followed it up with a phone call at 9.00 am the next day. I never came across service like that from an agent![/QUOTE]

How did you locate your house without an estate agent? :confused:

And are you using an Italian solicitor in Italy for the purchase or someone in England? I asked Laura72 for information about Italian solicitors in the UK but she has not been online lately! :rolleyes:

However, it is quite exceptional to receive a response from a solicitor at 10.45 at night unless they are still in the office for some other reasons! Maybe you were just lucky! :)

[QUOTE=Italianlover]How did you locate your house without an estate agent?[/QUOTE]
Umm well in our case we visied the area over a period of about 12 years, got to know several people and were offered a chance to buy a house as we were considered "sympatico" by everyone in the village.

[QUOTE=Italianlover]

And are you using an Italian solicitor in Italy for the purchase or someone in England? I asked Laura72 for information about Italian solicitors in the UK but she has not been online lately! :rolleyes:

However, it is quite exceptional to receive a response from a solicitor at 10.45 at night unless they are still in the office for some other reasons! Maybe you were just lucky! :)[/QUOTE]

Apologies if I have not been able to access this forum regularly over the last few weeks due to work committments!

To reply to your question, we have appointed Dr. Gabriel Giambrone who is an Italian Avvocado and a Solicitor in England (gabriel@giambronelaw.co.uk or 0208 301 8671- Giambrone & Law International Law Practice).

I can fully endorse what Brendan said in the previous post about Gabriel's professionalism, because on numerous occasions we have been emailing him after work (after 7 pm at least) and received a response on the same night or at least an acknowledgment by his Secretary.

But everyone's experience is different with solicitors: maybe we should start another separate thread: Solicitors, the good,the bad and the ugly?!

At least everyone can share their own experiences with the solicitors they have appointed and it will be good advice for those who are just behind us and not sure where to start!

A part from that, I totally agree with Charles as his advice is always very sound and he comes across as very professional when he encourages potential buyers to be wary about what they are signing and what they are effectively buying.

:eek:

In reply to Italianlover:

We've got Laura to thank for the solicitors and we have been impressed by their professionalism. My wife also tells me that he is very dishy(!).

Although we had visited the area we have bought in on several occasions and had used agents to look at houses it was through my wife's perserverance with every possible type of web search that resulted in us finding a property on a German website that was being sold privately by a Swiss couple. Obviously, not using an agent made it imperative for us to use a solicitor. I also agree with earlier comments - we found that by visiting the same area several times we got to know several people who went on the look out for properties for us and we did actually view several properties that were being sold privately.

Anyway we are due to go to Italy to complete on 14th September (100 days from first seeing the property) so I'll let you know after that whether buying without an agent but with a solicitor is a good idea!

Erm....I fully endorse brendan's wife comments about Dr Giambrone being very dishy :) :) :)

typical italian style though, isn't it? Italian men are usually very charming and full of charisma! What matters in our case is that all the lawyers in this firm are competent, polite and return calls within hours rather than days (as in the case of the English Counterpart who is dealing with the sale of our UK home, is costing a lot more money and is very difficult to get hold of! :rolleyes: )