11046 Your Friday Language Challenge

I'm going to think about this...............!! [I]Something about a cat and a white mouse (male mouse?) who is not good at maths[/I] ?

I am at nursery level !

Well my automated translation service says:
[quote]"The cat was a sudden, afferrò the mouse in hoof and if the left escape in rounder ... was not good in Mathematics!"[/quote]

.....it's the way you tell 'em!

This is what Google makes of it.

"The cat came out of the blue, seized the mice in four and quattr'otto and let him get away in a flash ... it was not good at math!"

Here is my version:
The cat came all of a sudden, caught the mouse in less than no time and let is scape in the twinkling of an eye... it was not good at maths.
But it looses a lot in translation

Phrases like this do lose a lot in translation unfortunately - Gala Placidia your version is pretty much what I would have said too.
quattro e quattr'otto has become a favourite phrase of mine since our baby was born on 4.4.08!!

This is another little tiny step in me gaining a bit more knowledge of this (for me) challenging language

I couldn't have guessed the meaning of that sentence. Agree that more such phrases would be useful. I wonder if my Italian teacher would have understood.
Thankyou
pam

I'm afraid I still don't get the meaning of this, could we have not only a translation but an explanation please?

[quote=Cristiana;104175]"Il gatto uscì di punto in bianco, afferrò il topo in quattro e quattr'otto e se lo lasciò scappare in un batter d'occhio... non era bravo in matematica!"
:twitcy:[/quote]

The cat came out suddenly (punto in bianco = fast), grabbed the mouse in (quattro e quattr'otto = 4 & 4 make8) a flash and very quickly (un batter d'occhio= one flutter of an eyekid) let him escape.. he wasn't good at maths!

[quote=Carole B;104279]................ he wasn't good at maths![/quote]

so - what was the meaning of this bit - how does it tie in with the rest?

It's a play on words Alan - it cant be translated to give a clear meaning in English, but basically the cat was too slow for the devious mouse.

It's all allegorical. We have a cat (aka dude) dressed up in his tuxedo (punto bianco) who leaps into his eight cylinder Ferrari (aferro, past tense of aferrari), spots a rat who's cut his stuff with flour, knocks him for four, and it's the rat who hasn't done his sums on the pizzo.

Easy once you know how - I'm better than Babelfish!

:eerr:You can tell me I’m just thick but is this challenge really too obscure for the level of Italian of most of the members here?

Personally I find it dispiriting if the bar is set so high.

I agree. It is a very tricky one as it consists on a play on words combined with idioms which are very difficult to translate or to explain in another language.

[quote=Nielo;104324] ............Personally I find it dispiriting if the bar is set so high.[/quote]

Personally. I prefer it to be about elbow height, and well stocked!

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[quote=Nielo;104324]:eerr:You can tell me I’m just thick but is this challenge really too obscure for the level of Italian of most of the members here?

Personally I find it dispiriting if the bar is set so high.[/quote]

In a word Nielo "Yes!"

[B]As an aside for Cristiana[/B] - this is a great idea, :yes: but as Nielo, and others have said, it is generally too advanced as any 'play on words' as this is, is often difficult in the mother tongue - never mind a foreign one. Perhaps you could continue your lessons with some reasonably easy Italian sayings for everyone to guess and learn from?

Here's an easier one.

"Mi hai fatto fare i vermi!"

Who knows what it means and how it could be used in English?

Easy... it is a Neapolitan expression equivalent to: "Mi hai fatto prendere un terribile spavento" or putting it in English, "you have scared me to death".
Did Mamma say that to you today?

I'm afraid that was too advanced for me too, although I got the general drift.More interesting was the comment when I went into the bar this evening: I'm not sure of the exact words, but someone said something like 'Ma hanno fischiato l'orrecchie?' as they'd taken my name in vain only a few minutes earlier. As I explained to someone, the English equivalent is 'brucciare l'orrecchie'.

I think that the expression is "mi fischiano le orecchie" (my ears are burning).
Gosh, this is getting better than going to Italian lessons.

[quote=Gala Placidia;104373]I think that the expression is "mi fischiano le orecchie" (my ears are burning).
Gosh, this is getting better than going to Italian lessons.[/quote]

That's the one, except they were asking me the question as they'd mentioned my name 5 minutes earlier and then I turned up on cue.:-)

Oh yes, and b****r the doppie!

[quote=Gala Placidia;104363]Easy... it is a Neapolitan expression equivalent to: "Mi hai fatto prendere un terribile spavento" or putting it in English, "you have scared me to death".
Did Mamma say that to you today?[/quote]
I cant connect it at all, so what does "Mi hai fatto fare i vermi!" actually mean if literally translated in English?

[quote=chief Wiggum;104425]I cant connect it at all, so what does "Mi hai fatto fare i vermi!" actually mean if literally translated in English?[/quote]

You made me do worms

[possibly a reference to being sh*t scared? - unless it refers to dying and feeding the worms. I prefer the former possibilty]

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[quote=chief Wiggum;104425]I cant connect it at all, so what does "Mi hai fatto fare i vermi!" actually mean if literally translated in English?[/quote]
In most cases it is impossible to literally translate idiomatic expressions into another language. The meaning is lost in translation.
If you have to say the same thing in English you will be saying: "You scared me to death".
One language is not the literal translation of another. And this is what explains why some people find difficulties when trying to learn a foreign language. They are trying to translate literally.... and it doesn't work that way.

But how can one ever learn if making worms is the same as being scared to death? Where is the connection between the worms and fear?

As I said before, idioms cannot be literally translated. You learn them by heart. Nevetheless, if it helps your memory to make some kind of association, you can always link "death" for "scared to death" with "worms". Yuk!!!!

Presumably an Italian would have the same difficulty with ,say, letting the cat out of the bag, etc.

Thank you Alma. Actually, "letting the cat out of the bag" would be translated into Italian as "questo non è piu un segreto"......

As we're talking about cats, what about it's raining cats and dogs?

"Piove a catinelle" (catinelle=buckets). The Italian version makes more sense!!

The expression is "piove a catinelle".
And has nothing to do with cats. A "catinella" (singular, plural: catinelle, means a basin or bucket. Actually, it would be a more literal translation of "the rain is bucketing down".

P.S. We were answering Alma's question at the same time, Katier.

Sometimes phrases [I]nearly[/I] translate, but with a funny twist.

'To kill two birds with one stone' translates as 'prendere due uccelli con un fagiolo'.

The version I know is 'con una fava'... still a bean, so it may be a regional thing!

As to the 'cats and dogs' phrase in English, if you you look at the the computer corpuses of modern English language usage you'll find it isn't actually used "in anger" any more, although most of us are still all aware of it.

[quote=juliancoll;104355]Here's an easier one.

"Mi hai fatto fare i vermi!"

Who knows what it means and how it could be used in English?[/quote]

You may find this strange.. but I don't know the exact meaning of this expression in Italian!
maybe: "I waited too long for you so I'm out of date" as it happens to food when it passes the point of expiration!

Anyway I find interesting all of your translations and appreciated the new input, such as "mi fischiano le orecchie" which is actually of common use but not straightforward for a non native speaker especially because it is connected to a common belief and used when you think that someone is talking about you..and let me add: if it is your right ear they are talking well of you, if it happens on the left one they are talking badly about you!

Re my "challenge" (if it was easy it wouldn't be a challenge) Tuscanhills gave a good example of how hit and miss an automatic translator is whilst some others got the play on words and the idiomatic expressions contained in the phrase:
"Il gatto uscì di punto in bianco, afferrò il topo in quattro e quattr'otto e se lo lasciò scappare in un batter d'occhio... non era bravo in matematica!"

Gala Placida and Carole B gave the right translation, which are
"The cat came all of a sudden, caught the mouse in less than no time and let is scape in the twinkling of an eye... it was not good at maths."

and

"The cat came out suddenly (punto in bianco = fast), grabbed the mouse in (quattro e quattr'otto = 4 & 4 make8) a flash and very quickly (un batter d'occhio= one flutter of an eyekid) let him escape.. he wasn't good at maths!"

so there is no need for me to make it!

Cristiana
ps: ed ora me ne vado in un batter d'occhio! :wink:

[quote] (un batter d'occhio= one flutter of an eyekid)[/quote]

I would think this translates better as the English expression 'in the blink of an eye'.:winki:

[quote] Originally Posted by juliancoll View Post
Here's an easier one.

"Mi hai fatto fare i vermi!"

Who knows what it means and how it could be used in English?[/quote]

In translation I took this to be a play on words:

"You made me make worms"
that is - [I]"You made me die...." (laughing?)[/I]

(when you're dead your body becomes worms - right?) Just seemed a little bit ghoulish so I didn't post it...

[quote=Carole B;104529]In translation I took this to be a play on words:

"You made me make worms"
that is - [I]"You made me die...." (laughing?)[/I]

(when you're dead your body becomes worms - right?) Just seemed a little bit ghoulish so I didn't post it...[/quote]

I stick with my earlier post on this.

Based on the 'Run/Fight' reaction to major stress - the human body will, [in extreme cases]. get ready for flight by emptying it's bowels - hence 'making worms' - a graphic, but semi-polite, way of saying "you scared the sh*t out of me"

Here is a nice site (not too sure about the musical soundtrack!) with a load of proverbs about the weather.

[url=http://www.stazionemeteoolmeto.com/Proverbi/Generici.htm]Nuova pagina 1[/url]

I am particularly enamoured of this one....

Se il ragno fa il filato, il bel tempo è assicurato....

can you tell me where you get your translations from; And to anyone who speaks Italian can you give me any suggestions on how to learn the language as affordable as possible? Thanks.

To learn the language, try to look at any Adult Education courses in your area which may offer language courses. Private tuition is usually more expensive and learning through any of the courses you can buy can be pretty demanding as the basis of language is communication and you cannot communicate with a book, a screen, a DVD, or a CD.
As for translating.... it is a complicated process, particularly in the case of idiomatic expressions. You need to have a fair knowledge of the language, preferably a couple of foreign languages so that you may be able to extrapolate answers, some good dictionaries and again a good knowledge of languages so that you may be able to use them (dictionaries are very tricky language aids)... it is not an easy task but it is a challenge.
Perhaps it is a bit difficult for you at this stage as I gather that you are just starting to lean the language, but make some notes of what you see and it may help you in the learning process.
Most important, if you are really interested in learning Italian, don't give up. Rome wasn't built in a day. Learning a language takes time and lots of effort.
Best wishes,

I know learning Italian will be a monumental challenge for me especially since i have had trouble with foriegn languages in high school. The major difference between then and now is that i have a strong desire to learn Italian whereas with French i was doing it because it was a requirement to graduate from high school. I have been around the language as much as possible by downloading programs that have translated many of the website interfaces i use into italian. I am planning to enroll in an adult language class this summer and am looking to get Rosetta Stone when i can afford to. Thanks for the encouragement. One famous statement deserves another...when asked if he was wasting his time after continually failing to make a working lightbulb Thomas Edison replied "I didn't waste any time, i just learned 2,000 ways not to make a lightbulb." thanks for the encouragement.

You say you are thinking about Rosetta Stone - when you can afford it...
Have you thought about eBay, Amazon or even asking here (or other sites) whether anyone has finished with theirs and might be willing to let you have theirs (as a gift or for a fee)?
You never know - you may be lucky!

[quote=iTALY BOUND;104542]can you tell me where you get your translations from; And to anyone who speaks Italian can you give me any suggestions on how to learn the language as affordable as possible? Thanks.[/quote]

We learnt very basics of Italian through evening classes - starting with 'Conversational Italian' and going on [after some years] to GCSE Italian.

MY one piece of advice is to concentrate [at least initially] on being able to speak and read simple Italian, rather than worry about things like tenses etc. I have found, even with my basic level of Italian, that I can get my washing machine repaired, order a new kitchen, tell the geometra what I want [a rough sketch equals years of learning Italian], etc etc.

My wife has 'improved' her basic Italian immensely by listening to Michel Thomas' Learn Italian CDs, whilst driving in the car - she's much more fluent than me now.

I bought the CD set for her one Birthday, and they were not cheap - but look on sites like eBay for second hand ones. [url=http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1311&_nkw=michel+thomas+italian&_sacat=See-All-Categories]michel thomas italian, Books, Comics Magazines, Music, DVD, Film TV items at low prices on eBay.co.uk[/url]

Good luck

.

[quote=Charles Phillips;104540]Here is a nice site (not too sure about the musical soundtrack!) with a load of proverbs about the weather.

[url=http://www.stazionemeteoolmeto.com/Proverbi/Generici.htm]Nuova pagina 1[/url]

I am particularly enamoured of this one....

Se il ragno fa il filato, il bel tempo è assicurato....[/quote]

Oh yes - that is a nice one Charles...

"If the spider spins his web - then good weather is certain (assured)" [IMG]http://www.pamibe.com/wp-includes/images/yahoo/spider.gif[/IMG]

One expression that I heard and it is most interesting (again, no literal translation, please):

"Gli è saltata la mosca al naso"

alan h is right about keeping things simple. I had an English colleague this summer, here for 5 years, whose grammar was appalling (tenses/agreement/gender etc) but she was understood.

I'd also recommend listening and watching (DVDs etc) as much Italian as possible. I think one of the weaknesses of Italians learning English compared with northern Europeans, is that they don't get any exposure to English other than their (over-formal) classes, as all films/television here are dubbed.

Which reminds me: I taught a beginners' Italian evening class once. After 2 lessons somebody wanted their money back: I was talking in Italian too much!!

"Mi hai fatto fare i vermi!"

Apparently, the meaning stems from the reproductive cycle of worms.

Worms are hermaphrodites, but they still need a mate to reproduce. It seems that worms just bump into each other by chance and the frisky one jumps on the other worm to mate - therefore giving at least one of the worms a bit of a fright (say nothing of a possible rape charge).

I kid you not. :bigergrin: