In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=Sally Donaldson;108282]Lisa Hi I posted this recently - [url]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/general-chat-about-italy/11153-tragic.html[/url][/quote]
Hi Sally,
Are you able to copy the article in? When I click on the link I get a message that the page cannot be found.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Page can not be found means doesn't exist.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
the numbers on work related deaths that you quote are most probably very low as regards what is actually the truth here.... several industries the major two at fault being agriculture and building... when accidents do occur and they involve non registered workers dump them far away from the workplace ... and that's that...
in some cases where a worker is seriously injured they can quite easily as they say in the animal world be put to rest permanently to save any difficult questions being answered by the injured party...where it involves Italian workers... they know their families are at risk if they answer questions truthfully....
i am not one to defend big industry here or even to suggest that the company in this case was not at fault... however whenever these cases do come up... and its often enough ... it seems to me that there is always a sort of closed shop effort against the owners ... which allows then the comune and the health and safety people here to skip any responsibility for lack of control.... as these people, the unions and generally the prosecuting magistrate all belong to the same side of the political scene and most probably have all helped in promoting each others careers , taking turns in running for each post available... there is very little desire to actually have anyone ask why were the rules not enforced through the millions of health and safety rules that exist here.....
the other point that arrives high in my thoughts and not wishing to open up a debate on driving safety is that a population that still goes to the wreckers yards to buy the clasps to put in seat belt catches to stop the sound emitting to warn you that you are not wearing the belt... or carries babies in arms in the front seat, or have their two year olds stand between front seats whilst diving along at 100 kph is very unlikely to actually respect any rules that are put into how you operate machinery .... basically a factory owner or its safety officer would have to go around a work place twenty four hours a day here putting back guards that have been removed because they make things more difficult...
the laws are here...the same as all Europe wide legislation... there are enough inspectors to make a start on things... however there is no willingness to actually do much.... and the unions here should be ashamed of themselves more than the owners to my mind because they take money each week from the workers and they should be there not only protecting them but educating them and forcing safer work practices
finally as an after thought... because my habit seems to wander off thread somewhat... consider that Italian schools are in a much worse condition than many of the work places ... count the number of children injured or killed in incidents related to school premises and what happens and who is held responsible... recent legislation tried to move some of the funding from the private sector in this area to invest more money into school buildings and updating them...it was soon blocked by a powerful lobby here who continue to take money out of the public system ... this to my mind is more of a scandal as these buildings are part of a compulsory system that you have to send your child to... normal enough... but who accepts the burden of responsibility to make them safe... the children are often not old enough to even consider the danger...unlike the adults who take risks either through stupidity or economic necessity...
torino is also infamous for this incident which seems to have quitely dissapeared....
[url]http://www.corriere.it/cronache/08_novembre_22/scuola_rivoli_crollata_a3cb0656-b88d-11dd-a6ef-00144f02aabc.shtml[/url]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Whilst not wanting to dispute any of the things others have said on this subject there is most definitely another side to this story that I have witnessed myself when working in Italy and that is of a factory owner who was bloodstained and ashen faced after retrieving a long time employee from a machine that had mangled his foot.
He was ashen faced because of concern for the man and his family who had often eaten together with his own family on a Sunday but also because he knew he risked having the factory closed down by the authorities. The union official was on the scene almost as quickly as the firemen.
In the event the foot was saved and the magistrate found that the employee had not followed the correct procedures when cleaning the machine (i.e to switch it off). But his failure to do so goes against another stereotype... that of the workshy factory worker. He didn't turn the machine off because he wanted to do his job more quickly - not because he was on a pittance piece rate but because he was a motivated loyal worker in a small Italian family business.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
sdoj
your right... it is a common cause here of accidents... there was another infamous one where i think two people were killed in a silo because safety procedures were skipped in order to get the job done of cleaning it quicker.... if i remember rightly no hint of illegal workers, low wages or pressure to do things this way...
there are many scenarios for why things do go wrong here... however the usual answer when a mass tragedy happens is that laws need to be introduced... Italy has the safety laws already...
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
The laws exist and there has been plenty of advertising regarding safety at work. The need is now to educate both workers and supervisors that it is possible to work in a safe environment. It is a problem not only in Italy but in many EU countries as well.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I am just back from a trip to Italy visiting plant nurseries. One owner that I wanted to see was not available because he was on a safety at work course run by the local ULSS (possibly the equivalent of the UK SHAs). I asked him afterwards what it was all about and he said all company owners/dirigenti must undergo this training. So it seems the Health and Safety bandwagon has arrived in Italy too!
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=sdoj;109260]........ ..... I asked him afterwards what it was all about and he said all company owners/dirigenti must undergo this training. ...........![/quote]
About time too!
Many accidents would be prevented if Managers understood and enforced safety processes.
The days of blaming workers for ignoring the rules are long gone - that's why [here in UK] we also prosecute managers who do not manage their processes and workers safety properly
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=alan h;109265]About time too!
Many accidents would be prevented if Managers understood and enforced safety processes.
The days of blaming workers for ignoring the rules are long gone - that's why [here in UK] we also prosecute managers who do not manage their processes and workers safety properly[/quote]
The six ThyssenKrupp managers involved in the German steelmaker's plant accident in Torino in 2007 are being held accountable for their actions as they recently went on trial in Italy so the Italian government is finally doing this as well.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=Lisa C.;109271]The six ThyssenKrupp managers involved in the German steelmaker's plant accident in Torino in 2007 are being held accountable for their actions as they recently went on trial in Italy so the Italian government is finally doing this as well.[/quote]
I'll be interested to see when they do it to a major Italian firm.
.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=alan h;109273]I'll be interested to see when they do it to a major Italian firm.
.[/quote]
Good point Alan, I really hadn't considered that.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Not before time too. Italy's got the worst record in all of Western Europe when it comes to job-related deaths.
A colleague of mine wrote what I think is a pertinent article here: [url=http://www.homesandvillasabroad.com/blog/?p=55]Italy’s job deaths scandal | Homes and Villas Abroad Blog[/url]
[Admin, feel free to disable the link if you think it's not relevant]
Lisa Hi I posted this recently - [url]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/general-chat-about-italy/11153-tragic.html[/url]