3452 Permission for repair

Hello Marco ,

in the case of light restoration works (painting, floors, window and door frames and wiring) the technician (=geometra) present a particular request called DIA, for which it will not be necessary to pay any tax and the works can initiate in a brief time period .

All Italian's commune related offices has to issue the Dia permission on maximum 30 days .

....there's also a rule that if you're doing anything that the neighbours are jealous of, then they will ensure you need permission!

(so tiles should be OK, unless they are not yours!)

[LEFT]You can get more information by referring to DPR 380 of 6 June 2001: [B]Testo unico delle disposizioni legislative e regolamentari in materia edilizia[/B][/LEFT]

The DIA ([I]Denuncia Inizio Attività[/I]) is applicable to minor work or to jobs where you are transforming or modifying an existing building (renovation of a rural property for example). It is a useful process (we use it a lot) because it enables you to start work in a short space of time.

Only a tecnico abilitato can submit the application for a DIA at the local council. This has to be done at least 30 days prior to work commencing.

Work that is covered by the DIA include, among other things:

[LEFT][B][SIZE=2]Opere di manutenzione straordinaria [/SIZE][/B][/LEFT]
[LIST]
[*][LEFT]To improve and or to replace parts of a building (even structurally), providing they do not alter any of its physical characteristics, [/LEFT]
[*][LEFT]For a change of use[/LEFT]
[*][LEFT]To improve or replace external fittings such as windows, doors and shutters[/LEFT]
[/LIST][LEFT][B]Opere di restauro[/B] [/LEFT]
[LIST]
[*][LEFT]Building work required to return a building back to its original and traditional style [/LEFT]
[*][LEFT]Removal of parts of a building that have been added to the original at a later stage [/LEFT]
[*][LEFT]Restoration of an existing structure [/LEFT]
[/LIST][LEFT][B]Opere interne alle costruzioni[/B] [/LEFT]
[LIST]
[*][LEFT]Internal stairs (providing they don’t alter any of the load bearing characteristics of the main structure), removing, replacing and or creating new timber beamed ceilings and the replacement or creation of new bathrooms [/LEFT]
[/LIST][LEFT][B]Impianti tecnologici al servizio di edifici[/B] [/LEFT]
[LIST]
[*][LEFT]Revision or installation of electrical, heating and water systems (includes the installation of renewable energy)[/LEFT]
[/LIST]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]thanks for this useful info.I'm trying to contact our geometra to ask about this as the application for planning seems to be dragging from starting in February and still waiting in May!

What we intend is basically restoring our house to a good but original condition with a move for the bathroom and stairs.

I was stealing myself for some hefty charges as far as permissions go but it seems that the DIA has no charge attached?

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

Firstly manopello, hate to break the bad news, but the comune levies charges (generally related to a percentage of the costs of the works, which your geometra will have suppplied to the comune) on DIAs as well as on permessi di costruire needed for larger scale works.

Though Charles Joseph has explained the general areas where a DIA is sufficient, it [B]can [/B]become necessary to obtain a full permesso for any works affecting the outside of a building - including any demoltion, even if only of a tin shed - if your building is "vincolato". This means your building does not enjoy the same freedoms as other buildings.
It is quite common to find that your house comes into this category, by virute of being in a substantially unaltered hamlet, village, or town centre (a bit like conservation area status in the UK), or is in a particularly nice bit of the countryside (compare with National Park or AONB status in the UK).
In addition, comunes and regiones have the right to add their own amendments to the national testo unico per l'edilizia - so, to be sure (even if you are just going to do some roof repairs) - have a word with your geometra who will know all the local wrinkles.
Any Italian house owner would (at the very least!) telephone their geometra di fiducia before embarking on anything which could be seen as building work on the outside of their house!

I'd just like to agree with Relaxed that it's always a good idea to get the advice of a geometra before commencing any works as he will know all the local rules and regulations which apply in the area in which your property is. The laws concerning work on property are very complex here in Italy.

Becky, I am more or less in a situation like you, plans were put in comune in January geometra said they were hoping the builders could start around March, apparently plans have passed but waiting for them to be stamped!!!!! we have been told that the comune likes to stamp all plans that have been submited and passed in one go......:confused:So we cannot start our retoration till that has happened, now they are saying end of May, Im keeping my fingers crossed:)

We 'bit the bullet' and instructed our Geometra to start the works before the 'stamping'. You run the risk of the Commune telling you to stop work, but they aren't likely to do anything unless a neighbour objects to them.

Alan I did actually suggest that being the impatient lady I am.... my geometra and builders were having none of that, its by the book with them,even though my neighbour would not have objected as we bought the house and land from him, but in away I think that is a good sign as to the geometra and builders that we have got, so far everything else the purchase all went well, notario and translater and of coarse the agent that we bought from were a pleasure to work with, so I guess the route Im on is the right one for us :)

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]It would be a huge worry for me if I thought I may get a fine or reported so I think I will just have to wait!

This is all a steep learning curve for us and next time (?) perhaps i'll be more bold!

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

Whereas the Testo Unico is [I][B][U]the[/U][/B][/I] National law with regards to building/renovation etc, regional variations do apply as Relaxed points out and you may find that some local regs can be more restrictive.

If it is practical to do so, a visit to the local comune is always a good starting point, especially early on in the process, in order to see what is stipulated in the Piano Regolatore. This will tell you the type of zone where the property is located and what you can and cannot do with regards to building, restoration, renovation and maintenance.

Thank you all for your input.
It seems not much can be done without permission.
However when I next go out to Italy I want to do something just to feel I'm in some way progressing.
I guess I can cut back the undergrowth, sweep out the building and dispose of rubbish...
What about repointing, reglazing broken windows, repairing rotten/broken window frames (assuming I'm not altering the existing design) - are these things possible without permission?
Marco Mando

I think your find no is the answer but hey little bits here and there, no one would bat an eye lid unless you upset the neighbours.

Now you have described the scope of your intnded works, I think we can be a bit less cautious!

I am certain that you can cut back undergrowth (but be wary of chopping down "proper" trees). Proper tress are species which you would probably want to keep anyway, but species like the wild acacia, figs, elderberry etc. all count as weeds and nobody could ask you to respect those!

Similarly clearing out all the rubbish doesn't need any permission (hopefully you will find some way of disposing of it properly, at a municipal skip or a hardcore site, or in a hole on your own land).

Same goes for replacing glazing, and repairing window frames - all okay.

When we get onto pointing, that is going to look like building work, and could (probably unlikely) result in a nosey neighbour making noises at the comune. Same goes for roof work, though if the roof is not very high and the neighbours are friendly, I wouldn't worry. So step one, make sure your neighbours are nice folk!

However, if you are, at a later date, intending to do some more substantial work to the house, it would be a good idea to make friends with a local geometra and pick his brains, even at this stage.

You shouldn't really worry about needing the permissions, ask in your comune, or ask your neighbours to recommend a local geometra, then apply, and wait... your cleaning up is OK, be wary of roofing jobs though and I'd also be wary of any glazing as you will probably discover that you will need to fit double glazed replacement windows. it's easier to get the things sorted out early rather than face a fine and having to re do everything, buy the mayor a coffee...

I'm wondering is it all to do with the relationship between the builder, geometra and Comune.
All the works that I've had done, I tell the builder and geometra what needs doing, the builder starts it after we've agreed a price, then the geometra bring the paperwork down to be signed.

Isn't this the norm?:confused:

What about things like concreting the drive which was just sand, turning what was effectively a building site into nice gardens and putting the seal stuff on the roof to keep out the rain. Surely you don't need permission for all of this do you ???????:eek: ...and what about turning a pile of rubble we inherited with the property into a patio ...haven't done that one yet !!!:(

I'm in the geometra's office at the moment (just having sneaky use of his computer as we haven't got the telephone line connected at our new house yet!). I've asked about the permission and it seems you really should ask for permission for all these things, Alex and Lyn, but if you haven't, don't worry too much :o . However, for the patio you really ought to get the relevant permission by way of a DIA. If you want to know anything else, feel free to a-mail me & I'll find out for you.

Hazel

From the threads here it appears we need one of these, as we are just repairing all that is in need of repair. No extensions, no structural work, just good-ole English DIY.

However does the Denuncia Inizio Attività HAVE to be submitted by a technico abilitato, or can we do it? Reason I ask is that we had a particularly stressful run-in when we tried the route with the local geometra in April as he seemed to totally fail to understand that we wanted to do the work and would not provide an estimate for his costs to submit permission to the Commune BEFORE we signed an agreement to pay him! We just couldn't do it!

We have already started some of the painting and replaced 1 of the broken window pains, but luckily are on good terms with the neighbours so they have helped us rather than seek to object so far but realise from reading this that we've already done too much.

So any advice and how much should it cost so we have at least some idea?

I think you can put in for a DIA yourself and cost a couple hundred euro, it may depend what it is your asking for, but could be completley wrong and it probably varies as to what commune you are in. Best thing would be to ask at your commune, some of the other members may have a better answer. Find another geomatra in the area, there are normally many.

Oh perleeeeeze!

I don't care what anyone says - I don't know of one single Italian that will 'request permission' to replace a broken window pane, paint, do a bit of general routine maintenance or tidy up around his own house!

This forum goes too far sometimes; scaremongering and making others run round like headless chickens in a panic, wondering if they will be thrown in jail for f*rting inside their own home!

I've just changed the toilet tissue in my bathroom from tiger print to polka dot - without anyones permission or approval.. and if the neighbours don't like it - they can use the bidet, bring their own or simply bog off!

Not everyone is un spia che fa il doppio gioco come un 'secret agent'.. so relax a bit.. 'cus even Italians know everyone needs to breathe from time to time. :)

I agree it is silly but got the impression they had done far more. If the neighbours are happy I wouldn't worry but if they are unsure or don't wish to just get on with it, then it's best to ask. We have no intension of getting a DIA for basic repairs , even some basic plumbing.

Looks like I could be in trouble as my bathroom window fell out and I have had a new one put in and didnt ask for permission! mind you that was well over 12months ago and nobody has said anything yet apart from my geometra when he came draw plans for converting the barn!! Well he said something I didnt understand I now think I understand after this thread!
I also knocked down a little shed when I moved in well an eye sore that was dangerous all the neighbours clapped and people passing kept saying bravo!!!
Oh dear!!This forum is great I am on a learning curve.

Thanks trullamartinofranco you were right in your assumptions, and sorry Anastastia that things seemed a little too detailed, I can see what you mean, but at least these forums do give a place to air concerns, even if they are sometimes in your view unwarrented. Personally I appreciate the conversation, either way. So thanks for the advice and for adding a little perspective too I suppose.

No prob Marlene and Anastasia is also right because otherwise we would all be going around like headkess chickens if we did everything to the book. Just be aware of the situation and I am sure if you ask around the conensus would be don't worry to much about little jobs that are unlikely to upset anyone.

Just answered my own question, duh, didn't read Charles post fully about getting DIA's for bigger jobs. Could have sworn I read somewhere it was possible to apply for a DIA yourself, oh well. :D

[QUOTE]Charles Joseph Only a tecnico abilitato can submit the application for a DIA at the local council. This has to be done at least 30 days prior to work commencing[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca]No prob Marlene and Anastasia is also right because otherwise we would all be going around like headkess chickens if we did everything to the book. Just be aware of the situation and I am sure if you ask around the conensus would be don't worry to much about little jobs that are unlikely to upset anyone.

Just answered my own question, duh, didn't read Charles post fully about getting DIA's for bigger jobs. Could have sworn I read somewhere it was possible to apply for a DIA yourself, oh well. :D[/QUOTE]

It's not a question as has been said about "tidying up",cleaning land,painting your own house etc.The problem is that many (brits) think they can start doing their own rooves (roofs?),wiring ,plumbing, working presumably up a ladder pointing and the like which does fall into the category of specialist and "official" work which does require all that has been said in previous posts.
I still can't get my head round why people who'd be running round to the council in the UK think that here one does what one likes......

so far i have had to apply for retrospective DIAS on painting the house, removing plaster falling of the house and repointing... putting in new windows and have had vists from the local commune policeman for having a lorry load of sand and another time of gravel dumped halfway over the road but wheelbarrowed off each time within two or three housrs with the help of lots of neighbours.... all these problems have been instigated by phone calls to the commune..... and luckily knowing the mayor, the local official technical geometra/engineer have all been sorted by retrospective DIA ...

now on the face of it we get on with all our neighbours ... but they or whoever is right... all these things required the geometra ...whatever... to fill in and sign forms .... so maybe i am a headless chicken.... but thats life here...and we are lucky enough to know a few of the right people... and proceed in the way we do, because one day we might be able to change a door knocker without someone phoning up and it will seem like a small triumph.. but otherwise its best to always talk to a profesional first...

remember Italy after the war was established as a place by professionals for professionals to provide guaranteed income for the local communes and the professionals working within them...this system still is in force... and even italian neighbours whatever they tell you are at the whim of the phantom phone complainers... cause it happens to my neighbours too... in fact it makes you feel more part of the community if you can admit that you have been DIA'D..... although i do believe we hold the record

John,

I have one of my infamous cugini with me at the moment and he says you should move if you really have neighbours like that! :D

if your relative is from where i think then i prefer the DIA system... rather than the probelm of whole apartment blocks being built without permssion with a view... until they build the next one three metres away so they can hang the washing lines between them...and so on and so on ...that is until they meet the apartment blocks coming from the other side and then they have a war to see who will survive to build the last one... then if its like Bari ... they blow them all up...

Hopefully, this will either make you laugh.. or at least cool you down.. he lives in Basciano. You should meet him.. as he is almost a neighbour! :D

[quote=Sebastiano]It's not a question as has been said about "tidying up",cleaning land,painting your own house etc.The problem is that many (brits) think they can start doing their own rooves (roofs?),wiring ,plumbing, working presumably up a ladder pointing and the like which does fall into the category of specialist and "official" work which does require all that has been said in previous posts.
I still can't get my head round why people who'd be running round to the council in the UK think that here one does what one likes......[/quote]

I think you will find that until recently it was quite normal for the English to do there own plumbing, electrics and even repair roofs. Which would explain that there is confusion about what can or can not be done when in Italy.
It would depend very much on whether your changing parts of systems or putting in new systems. In the past I have, fitted a bathroom, added additional radiators, added additional electrical fightings, replaced roof tiles and re-pointed my house and never went running to the council. Yes the laws are tightening up in England, but only now.