8511 heating

This is a picture of the Twist model

We have installed an Ecoflame pellet stove that also does the hot water and radiators. As we don't have our hot water system fully installed at present it is used for hot air heating and radiator heating. We have only been over for a couple of occasions since it was installed therefore it has not really been fully tested but so far we are pleased with it. It is certainly very attractive to look at and easy to use.

I think Ecoflame only do one stove that does the hot water (other than boiler room type models) so if you google their website you should find it. They are an Italian company.

I believe many of the stufa manufacturers now have an Idro pellet model or two which will run some radiators and do domestic hot water - it depends on how many radiators you want to run and what degree of sophistication you prefer in the control system. it would be worth touring your local builders' merchants or solid fuel specialists. Here's a link in English to one popular one:

[url=http://extraflame.net/]Extraflame wood pellet stoves running eight radiators. Will you be warm this winter?[/url]
[url=http://www.lanordica-extraflame.com/php/prodotti_termostufe.php?lng=1]La Nordica - Extraflame[/url]

Pellet boilers are large, they need to go in some sort of outbuilding attached to the house - wonderful if you have room for a pellet room too.

I think that Cassini has hit the nail on the head for a 'search term'. "idro pellet". There are more than 100 results (on google.it) with this term, and there are 36 hits if you limit the answers to pages in English.

Though I accept the the orginal question is looking for an aesthetically acceptable solution for a kitchen or living room, the utilitarian looking idro-pellet boilers are not particularly huge, (rarely more than 0,5mq floor area for a domestic model): though they are ugly and noisy.

Hi,

I am planning to add one to my house next year, and this is what the local builder's merchant recommends. They have a huge selection, but he said clam are the best.

Here is the website: [url=http://www.clam.it/ita/stufe_acqua.html]CLAM[/url]

This it can heat upto 600 M Sq, and as for size, these do not require a outhouse - these are 58cm x 63cm x 127cm tall.

Just as a bonus, you can have a GSM card inserted for around €200. This means if you fill up the pellets before you leave, you can text the boiler and start it remotely before you leave the UK. As I understand it, this one will burn just under a bag a day, so you can even start it the day before from the UK or whereever.

Hope this helps!

Hi Manopello, I would always defer to Cassini on this topic because, unlike me, she has first hand experience of what she is talking about and has given me lots of helpful advice. However, as far as I can see, pellet stoves (as opposed to boilers) seem to stop at around 14kw which means enough for DHW and (very approximately) radiators for two average sized and insulated rooms. No pellet stove is going to replicate the pyrotechnic aesthetics of a wood fire or stove ( though some may enjoy the gas like quality of the flames) so perhaps the key issue is about the look/size of the machine itself. In this respect, I would suggest that, for example, an OKOFEN has exceptionally good looks in the context of a boiler room, but you wouldn't want one in your kitchen! On the other hand Viessmann make relatively neat and compact pellet boilers up to 50KW with a two day supply box integral to the boiler. In a reasonably sized kitchen I could see this product fitting into a built in, walk in, corner cupboard. Two years ago I couldn't find any Viessmann agents outside of Rome; now there's at least four in the Umbria region - Sorry, I haven't checked for Abruzzo. Try googling 'Vitoligno 300P' and 'Viessmann new products' if you're interested. The only other possibility that goes above 14kw, that I have found, is built in fireplaces that burn pellets, e.g. jolly mec foghet.

Has anyone got any comments about the noise of these pellet stoves? As I understand it, they are fan-assisted which I assume might be annoying in any quiet area?

Hi

Some additional thoughts for you, based around the mistakes we made:
[LIST=1]
[*]be clear on whether your use is for a holiday home or for permananent living/winter letting of a property as different demands on the system are likely to prompt a different solution (as others have said the size of your property will have a bearing too)
[*]find a good plumber who can review with you your requirements holistically as you could waste money if fit one solution now, only to upgrade it later
[*]I think another google.it search term to try would be termo stufa pellet[/LIST]We live here permenently and last year converted to a wood burning termo stufa which provides "support" to a gas combi-boiler. It does this by circulating water around the stufa and through a 300 litre tank. The hot water in the tank then "gives up" its heat to the domestic and radiator systems. Should there be insufficient heat in the tank, then the boiler kicks in to a level set on its control panel, but the benefit is it only has to heat water from the tank temperature rather than from the mains temperature.

Re point 2 above - the tank which the plumber installed also has the facility to receive heat input from solar panels which we plan to have installed at some stage in the future.

Most important of all - find a good plumber.

In bocca lupo (good luck)
Chris
[url=http://www.olivopiegato.com]Tuscany Bed and Breakfast - L'Olivo Piegato, The Crooked Olive[/url]

Hi,
we've gone for gas with the installation of an underground tank, really following the advice of our geometra. We'll only be there for a total of perhaps three months in the year (mostly in the summer), so year long running cost was less of an issue.
Any one had any experience with gas (and I don't mean the usual post Christmas flatulence!)?
Marc

[url=http://www.myspace.com/marcwoodward]MySpace.com - Marc Woodward - UK - Acoustic - www.myspace.com/marcwoodward[/url]

Yes we've got an underground tank - for the same sort of reasons as you marco. In the cantina we've installed underfloor heating, and intend to install solar panels in due course which will require the addition of an expansion tank. The idea is that the panels will assist the underfloor heating and at least keep the chill off when nobody is there.

We've also got 2 woodburners - more for fun than anything, since we are not there enough to warrant massive log piles for winter etc. Although I do plan a coffee table book on log pile designs in Central Italy when I have a spare moment - some of them are really beautiful.

Gas is expensive, but convenient. That's about the sum of it in my book. If/when we were there fulltime, I would consider other forms of heating. I've been interested in geothermal for some time, but Geotherm's arrival on this site was too late for me this time around...

This is a boiler that's made by extraflame.Hopefully it comes in other colours!!Why are all the boilers made in such bright colours? I've seen red, green,orange and yellow so far! A black or grey one of these could be incorporated into a main living area.

I suspect this is going to be a pretty costly item but hearing just how much its costing to heat houses with fossil fuels it seems the way to go.

At least italian plumbers seem pretty experienced with pellet stufe/boilers unlike in the UK.Its excellent advice to seek out a good local plumber and find out what they say before buying anything.

Our experience in a small 3 bed victorian cottage (no double glazing) in the UK is that a new wood burner of the smallest size we could get (it had to go in a small fireplace) throws out so much heat that if it could be channeled somehow could with ease heat at least 2 other rooms.The room that the stove is in gets so hot we have to have the door wide open!.Our previous open fire gave out very little heat so we had to have radiators on too.If you bought a bigger model it could heat a small house.

Marc

Re gas - my advice would be to shop around the various suppliers to get a price and method of billing which suits you. In our area there are at least 3 or 4 suppliers. We pay by metred usage, but others pay when the tank is re-filled.

When i discovered that a rival supplier's price was loads lower than the one we were locked into for 2 years (check what you are signing up to - since the concept of free customer movement has not yet caught on here) I served notice to quit and move to the cheaper firm. Our original supplier immediatley came to the house, pleaded with me like his life depended on it and dropped their price by approx 35%!!!!

P.S. I've enjoyed listening to your music while I've been writing this and suggest everyone else does so too. By brother's just come back from Nashville where he recorded some pretty neat stuff - he's local to you near Exeter see [url=http://www.myspace.com/thesongdoctor]MySpace.com - The Song Doctor - UK - Pop / Rock / Acoustic - www.myspace.com/thesongdoctor[/url]

Ciao

Chris
[URL]http://www.olivopiegatto.com[/URL]

[quote=marco mando;79893]Hi,
we've gone for gas with the installation of an underground tank, really following the advice of our geometra. We'll only be there for a total of perhaps three months in the year (mostly in the summer), so year long running cost was less of an issue.
Any one had any experience with gas (and I don't mean the usual post Christmas flatulence!)?
Marc

[URL="http://www.myspace.com/marcwoodward"]MySpace.com - Marc Woodward - UK - Acoustic - www.myspace.com/marcwoodward[/URL][/quote]

We have the big stand alone pellet boiler - heats our massive house (2 big zones plus two stand alone apartments) and a very large water tank. We have two open fires and may change those to an enclosed solution in the future.

We are also project managing a house restoration for friends and they have just opted for a gas system with the main fire in the kitchen/living area also linked into the heating via the clever switching tank mentioned above (will also connect to solar in the future too).

Annec, speaking of noise and pellet boilers particularly, they can have two or three fans for secondary and tertiary combusion - ie burning gases for a more complete combustion before they exit the flue - this can be quite loud (not a delicate whoosh more a roar) when in this phase of burning. The other noise comes from the serpentine screw apparatus which turns to load pellets - a loud cranking noise. Pellet stoves I have heard operating in builders' showrooms are considerably quieter. Its possible the technical data will have a decibel rating.

Re the cost of gas.

Also bear in mind that you can get extra discount from suppliers if you live in an area that does not have a town gas supply, just go to your commune and ask for the form ......

Sorry, in my last post I said Ecoflame. It should have been Extraflame. In fact we have the ecologica idro pictured in the website link given by Cassini.

I haven't noticed any noise except when the pellets are expelled into the flame which is a sort of popping sound.

I looks very attractive in our lounge, not at all industrial-looking. Will take a ohoto of it in-situ when when we are next out there.

However, it is not fully tested as at present it is only supplying water to three radiators and giving air heating. Later it will be linked up to domestic hot water and radiators and then we shall see what it is made of!

[quote=deborahandricky;80062]Re the cost of gas.

Also bear in mind that you can get extra discount from suppliers if you live in an area that does not have a town gas supply, just go to your commune and ask for the form ......[/quote]

We have an underground gas tank/bonbona (sp?) which was installed by the previous owner of the property. I don't actually know whether or not our comune has town gas ... but as we are several km's outwith the centro storico I suspect our house would not be served even if it were. Do you know whether the discount you refer to is only available if the whole comune doesn't have town gas - or would we be eligible if our comune DOES have town gas to the centro, but our property isn't able to be connected to it due to its more rural location?

[quote=pigro;80074]Do you know whether the discount you refer to is only available if the whole comune doesn't have town gas - or would we be eligible if our comune DOES have town gas to the centro, but our property isn't able to be connected to it due to its more rural location?[/quote]

As long as you are a certain distance away from the mains gas you will qualify - we're talking about 250m or so, rather than Kilometers.

business is not exactly brisk today so I've spent more time looking at pellet stufe that will also heat water.
[B]
The main contenders are;

[I]Idrofox[/I] by Edilkamin

[I]Thermo600 [/I]by Piazzetta

[I]Lucrezia idro [/I]by extraflame (this seems to give the most heat at 17.5 kilowatts)

[I]Wood Pellet Caleada [/I]by Jolly mec[/B]

[I]Twist by Calimax[/I]

Seems a good long list to me. You could also consider Palazzetti. They have 13 and 26Kw idro stufe here

[url=http://www.palazzetti.it/fuoco/products/index.php]Palazzetti.it[/url]

Manopello - I have owned and run wood burners (two of them with forced air systems, one with water) made by Palazzetti, Clam and Edilkamin. The Edilkamin was streets ahead of the others.

Now these were not pellet burners, but comparing these three reasonably prestigious marques, the only one which had the technical solidity and controllability of a Scandinavian stove was the Edilkamin.

Just a personal observation!

Thanks deborandricky and Marc for the very useful information about discounts. Any ideas about the scale of the discount in percentage terms?

[quote=lupo;80116]Thanks deborandricky and Marc for the very useful information about discounts. Any ideas about the scale of the discount in percentage terms?[/quote]

Its been a year or two since we signed up , but I seem to remember its about 8 cents a litre.

There's a retailer new Pescara Airport dealing in Edilkalmin if anyone wants to visit.We'll have a look at the idrofox model when were there.

Chris/Ghianda,

Thanks for the nice comments (sorry I'd not looked at this thread for a few days) - Yes I got a message from your brother through myspace - it's a small world (but I wouldn't want to paint it, etc).

Cheers,
Marc

[url=http://www.myspace.com/marcwoodward]MySpace.com - Marc Woodward - UK - Acoustic - www.myspace.com/marcwoodward[/url]

Reading through this thread there are a number of enlightening points that need to be said ... however one major point is correct ... it rather depends if the house is for holidays only or permanent residence.

Let me point out a few things....

1. Pellet stoves/boilers are more expensive than wood burners capital expense.

2. It is not permitted to install a solid fuel boiler in a house over 35Kw. Without the permission di Virgilio di Fuoco plenty of fire insulation and the like.....

3. Pellets are up to 7 times more expensive than cut wood per m3 and energy content.

4. A 300 liter storage facilty for hot water is of no use to anybody you need a minumum of 1200 litres to be a viable storage facility for wood burning stoves and solar panels.

More to follow.....got to eat lunch... Now to take up where I left off....

Please see also below my reply to geotherm....

5. Pellets or wood - your wife will love you - cleaning is the word plenty of dust everywhere naturally depends where you put the boiler. But she will love you for the money you save to buy handbags ad the like....

6. Any system you choose will have capital costs and these must be compared to the usage of the house holiday/permenent.

I've rather lost the thread so I'll stop while I'm ahead

[quote=lotan4850;80609]Reading through this thread there are a number of enlightening points that need to be said ... however one major point is correct ... it rather depends if the house is for holidays only or permanent residence.

Let me point out a few things....

1. Pellet stoves/boilers are more expensive than wood burners.

2. It is not permitted to install a solid fuel boiler in a house over 35Kw.

3. Pellets are up to 7 times more expensive than cut wood per m3 and energy content.

4. A 300 liter storage facilty for hot water is of no use to anybody you need a minumum of 1200 litres to be a viable storage facility for wood burning stoves and solar panels.

More to follow.....got to eat lunch...[/quote]
What size house are you considering and number of people Lotan?
35Kw output heating is basically for a poorly insulated house in excess of 500 square mtrs. We would be looking at a maximum of 28Kw for something of that size.
1200 ltrs is well above normal usage, unless everyone wants baths every morning and the heating system is not sufficient to cope with the hot water demand. We normally install systems with 300Ltr tanks that can reheat easily within 1 hour, or have the option for peak heating when there are many more people requiring hot water.

Dear Geotherm,

We are talking solid fuel and solar here not heat pumps which is a completely different animal.

35Kw is more than enough for a well insulated house (of even 500m2) you would require about 10/12 Kw to heat this. The rest would go to hot water plenty for 10 pers showering (baths a slightly different issue).

If you require more you would require permission from the Virgilio di Fuoco with incumbent fire regs et cetera....

We are talking heat store (for solid and solar) which is an "accumulator". 300 liter heat store would require re charging every 2/4 hours and who wants to get up in the middle of the night to re load the heat store, or come back from work to reload the store - rather defeats the object of saving money - I certainly don't.

The idea is to charge the accumulator quickly and burn wood efficiently (quick with plenty of air) - no pollutants and no chimney fires. Charging takes 3/6 hours of an evening in front of the TV depends on the load (how cold it is outside) and how much wood you put on; the following 24 hours you have heating and plenty of hot water.

You will obviously need a gas back up boiler but this only heats the top third of the tank and as soon as solar or solid is engaged the boiler cuts out (last year we used €300s of gas for heating and cooking for a villa of 235m2). €720 for wood - green wood - I haven't bought from the same supplier this year. Just over €1.000 not bad or...??? This year the gas boiler hasn't even switched on....!!!!

As far as heat pumps are concerned I know both companies very well having lived in Sweden for nigh on 15 years. But as said a different animal.

Rgds
lotan4850

[quote=lotan4850;80609]

1. Pellet stoves/boilers are more expensive than wood burners capital expense.
3. Pellets are up to 7 times more expensive than cut wood per m3 and energy content.
[/quote]
Don't want to make this a hot topic (groan) but in the interests of discussion -

Point 1 - I am guessing that pellet boilers and more expensive due to the different design features - I assume you have to load the wood into the chamber yourself, wheras a comparible pellet system will have a hopper and screw feed system. Our pellet monster also has computer control and fire supression system - perhaps log burners do to - I don't knoe, but am guessing it is not fair to compare directly - so I can leave my pellet boiler running happily for a week without user intervention.

Point 3 - This I am interested in for my own education. My understanding was that pellets are the most efficient of biofuels - water content at 4-8% versus 20-60% for cordwood - less moisture directly corelates to higher BTU - and easier handling. In density terms pellets are much higer at circa 42lbs/cu ft versus 10-20lbs/cu ft for raw wood. So I assume we don't do a direct correlation of either size or weight to determine a comparison price between wood and pellets? - Discuss....

BTW I am purely a consumer here, no vested interest, and I do use (my own) wood for our two fires.

[quote=lotan4850;80619]Dear Geotherm,

We are talking solid fuel and solar here not heat pumps which is a completely different animal.

35Kw is more than enough for a well insulated house (of even 500m2) you would require about 10/12 Kw to heat this. The rest would go to hot water plenty for 10 pers showering (baths a slightly different issue).

If you require more you would require permission from the Virgilio di Fuoco with incumbent fire regs et cetera....

We are talking heat store (for solid and solar) which is an "accumulator". 300 liter heat store would require re charging every 2/4 hours and who wants to get up in the middle of the night to re load the heat store, or come back from work to reload the store - rather defeats the object of saving money - I certainly don't.

The idea is to charge the accumulator quickly and burn wood efficiently (quick with plenty of air) - no pollutants and no chimney fires. Charging takes 3/6 hours of an evening in front of the TV depends on the load (how cold it is outside) and how much wood you put on; the following 24 hours you have heating and plenty of hot water.

You will obviously need a gas back up boiler but this only heats the top third of the tank and as soon as solar or solid is engaged the boiler cuts out (last year we used €300s of gas for heating and cooking for a villa of 235m2). €720 for wood - green wood - I haven't bought from the same supplier this year. Just over €1.000 not bad or...??? This year the gas boiler hasn't even switched on....!!!!

As far as heat pumps are concerned I know both companies very well having lived in Sweden for nigh on 15 years. But as said a different animal.

Rgds
lotan4850[/quote]
Thanks Lotan

I can understand that we are talking about 2 different systems, but there again it is a heating thread.

From the number of thermal analysis that we do, for every installation, then everything varies. With stone walls on renovations and good roof insulation, plus double glazing etc then we get thermal loads on 200 - 300 sq mtr properties for pump outputs of between 11-17Kw. If you are living in a villa, which is presumably a new or recent build then your insulation and thermal losses would be much lower than people who are doing restorations here, so you have to take that into account, plus altitude and minimum temperatures in winter.
Last year we only used about 700 Euros in total of electricity from Oct to Oct, but then it was a very mild winter. The previous year it cost us 1100.

Dear Piedmont Phil,

Point 1 - Correct it's a different piece of kit and therefore more expensive. The wood burner is simpler but the accumulator is more complicated but wood is cheaper and abundant and is not manufacturered in any way except for him/her up there...

Point 3 - We are comparing like for like and this means energy content kcal per m3.

Hi people

If someone wants to do some hard work comparing pellet heat output with wood and other power sources, here's some initial data for pellets. I think pellets deliver just under 5 kWh/kilo, and the current target price in our area is €4.30 for a 15 kilo bag with reasonable technical date on the bag. (You can pay well under €4 for pellets with little or no data, and as high as €7.50 for good ones in the wrong outlet. You may be able to get a cheaper rate for a bancale - but not always - and the delivery charge always puts the price up unless you've got your own truck!).

In comparison, I believe that wood provides about 4 kWh per kilo. So does anyone know what they're paying per kilo for wood at the moment? I never buy it buy weight myself.

Comparisons of energy output by delivered volume rather than by weight are much more favourable to pellets (I've seen figures in the past which suggest that pellets are four or five times better than some types of wood). But this is perhaps more a measure of convenience than an accurate comparison. But then, convenience is really what pellets are about - loading a pellet hopper once every few days or even longer is a lot easier than stoking most wood boilers. Of course, gas would be even easier (pellet boilers still need cleaning) - but my access road won't take a gas tanker.

Dear Bosco,
As was pointed out kg weights at aren't really relevant as wood varies as do pellets with energy content. But using your data and what I pay locally for timber which is €6-7/100kg this means pellets are 5-7 times the price of wood in weight terms and 4.5 - 6.6 times in energy terms - I standard slightly corrected I said 7 times when in fact it's average is about 6 times. Also....

- pellets have been manufactured, and transported so from an environmental point of view wood is more friendly unless your transporting wood around half of Italy!!

- the boilers necessary to use the pellets cost 2-3 times more than wood burners. And they are a damn sight more pleasing to the eye then a pellets stove in a lounge..

- Prices vary and supply can be notoriously bad when you need the pellets most.

- and on and on....

Well... yes... I sort of agree with all that, lotan, but...

Our nearest Castorama is selling pellets at €3.60 for 15 kg bag. (Stated energy content 4.6kW/kg, ash content <0.22%.)

The going price around here for seasoned wood (mixture of oak and beech) is €13.50 for 100 kg. (Energy content and ash content? Who knows!)

So the pellets we have downstairs cost us €0.24 a kilo, while our wood cost €0.13 a kilo. Not quite the drastic difference you've calculated, and if you take account of the convenience factors - easier storage, cleaner handling and less frequent cleaning of stove - some people will conclude that pellets are clearly a much better choice.

But that, of course, is not the end of the story. As you say, lotan, there are questions about the "global" efficiency of pellets in that they do need to be manufactured and then hauled around the country (or through several countries).

It seems obvious that it would be better, in environmental terms, to use wood that was cut locally rather than pellets which were manufactured several hundred kilometers away. However, there are questions about what happens once the fuel is actually used.

Traditional cordwood fires are notoriously inefficient (some can be less than 0% efficient!) and using that sort of fireplace to burn wood - even if it grew outside your backdoor - is unlikely to be as "green" as using pellets produced in Austria. Modern fires are supposedly much more efficient, but it seems to me that those figures are always suspect because they are based on perfect fuel and perfectly attentive and highly skilled fireplace operators. The manufacturer of our closed fire with integrated CH and DHW boiler could honestly cite an efficiency figure, but that would have been established under tightly controlled test conditions and it's likely to bear little relationship to what we get in the real world. Not only is every piece of wood that goes on the fire unique, there is always a question about how the controls should be set. Given the fuel in the fire [I]at this moment[/I] and how it's burning [I]at this moment[/I], should the damper be opened a bit to make the fire hotter, or would that just result in more heat going straight up the chimney? Given the temperature of the house at this moment and the temperature of the water now circulating in the radiators, should we throw another log on the fire, or let it die down a little?

Because pellets are a standardised fuel, it seems to me much more plausible that the efficiency figures given by manufacturers are likely to be not completely divorced from what users will experience.

So, as is often the case, if one considers the question of which technology is best in environmental terms, the answer is far from clear.

As for the cost of pellet fires being two or three times the cost of a cordwood fire, well, this [I]can[/I] be the case. However, I speak from personal experience when I say that it's not difficult at all to have a cordwood fire place cost a lot more than a pellet fire which would have produced the same heat output.

On the question of relative aesthetic values, I completely agree that a cordwood fireplace looks and sounds a whole lot nicer than a pellet fire.

Al

I have been reading the various heating threads for months now and NOT being the most technically minded, I have struggled to decipher all the information. So I thought I would produce an idiots guide to help ME arrive at the right decision. It is very simplistic (that is the level I need!) but can anyone just check it and let me know if I have made any big errors. Remember it is just a general guide and takes no account of insulation etc[ATTACH]1903[/ATTACH]

[quote=Luce Dell'Amore;80668]I have been reading the various heating threads for months now and NOT being the most technically minded, I have struggled to decipher all the information. So I thought I would produce an idiots guide to help ME arrive at the right decision. It is very simplistic (that is the level I need!) but can anyone just check it and let me know if I have made any big errors. Remember it is just a general guide and takes no account of insulation etc[ATTACH]1903[/ATTACH][/quote]

I like the concept and good for you for taking the time!

Questions for clarification -

1. Underfloor versus radiators - in new build I think underfloor may be cheaper (or the same) - accept that in existing it is likely to cost more.

2. Labour cost - not sure why this is a none with the exception of pellets. Perhaps work in progress? The "daily" (for wood) is perhaps better as another column (user intervention??) - I suppose the plumber gets his labour for all solutions.

3. Another source? - Forced air? Insomuch as I have seen some friends houses with the wood stove providing fan driven air to other rooms.

[quote=bosco;80658]If someone wants to do some hard work comparing pellet heat output with wood and other power sources......[/quote]

As far as I can tell the real ratio of price/performance between pellet and chordwood is 2/1 in favour of wood. That still seems generous given density and water content differentials - but my engineering brain hurts!

There is a good tool here - [URL="http://www.pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm"]compare fuel costs[/URL] - which you can put your own prices into - OK it is $ based, but appears reasonable for use in this context.

[quote=piedmont_phil;80687]As far as I can tell the real ratio of price/performance between pellet and chordwood is 2/1 in favour of wood. That still seems generous given density and water content differentials - but my engineering brain hurts!

There is a good tool here - [URL="http://www.pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm"]compare fuel costs[/URL] - which you can put your own prices into - OK it is $ based, but appears reasonable for use in this context.[/quote]

This site was hardly worth looking at and gave zero information the comparisons were in different units impossible to compare. Think objectively: "The Pellet Institute" is hardly an unbiased organisation

Erm the results (that appear to be directly comparible) are given for each as cost per million BTU. The other stuff is variables you can control - seemed to take the pain out of doing it ourselves.

After all we just want the information, appreciate the comment about pellet institute even though they are non profit they are clearly pro-pellet. That said I am comfortable to be pro-pellet myself and don't feel I am being hoodwinked by industry in some scam like way.

Dear Geotherm,

Naturally my opinions must be tempered with local conditions, costs, labour, capital costs, comfort, et cetera

I have no argument with heat pumps a great invention and a money-spinner for the companies involved. But it is a complicated and expensive piece of kit requiring servicing annually and you are bound by the expensive state price of electricity; it (electricity) has travelled great distances and been manufactured albeit environmentally friendly more or less...

Ok you can get a grant from the state which is applicable for solar energy as well - I’m unsure about wood burners - but accumulators are included.

Wood/solar is a local cost - no transport (or hardly) – so costs a lot less or nothing. Electricity for pumps and some pence for storage costs must be added for a direct comparison.

… and then there is the aesthetically pleasing look of a fire but tempered with the extra cleaning because there is a lot of dust. You can’t say that about a piece of kit that looks like a large fridge….

Dear AllanMason,

OK ignore cost and energy content. Burning wood is physics and physics is science.

To burn wood be it pellets, wood logs, wood chips or any other wood product you must burn this product quickly and with plenty of air. Otherwise you will not reach the temperatures high enough to release the energy content in the wood. Thus resulting in unfinished burning (inefficiency) and pollutants lining the chimney (tar the cause of chimney fires) and pollutants exiting the chimney. That said….

The only way to achieve this efficiently is via an accumulator (heat store) of sufficient size 10 litres/m2 living area. This allows you to fire up the boiler be it pellets or wood to a high temperature releasing the maximum energy from the wood and resulting in minimal pollutants. Loading the heat store with the energy released and using this in the following hours after the boiler is extinguished to heat and supply DHW (domestic hot water).

So as an example burning a wood burner for 3 hours at maximum will supply a 2000-liter accumulator with about 100Kw this is more than enough to heat a well-insulated house for 24 hours leaving plenty of hot water for the residents.

In Italy this technology is poorly utilized; that said all wood stoves and pellet stoves are inherently inefficient. To maximize efficiency and minimize pollutants the only method is via an accumulator. The additional advantage is that this can be used for solar collection at a later date.

Simple ain’t it!

Forgive me if this is the most ridiculous idea you have ever heard but...

would it be possible to have a geothermic heat pump (taking heat from the earth) which obviously needs electricity to function BUT could you have a photovoltaic installation that generates enough electricity to run the geothermal pump and othere electrical supply needs?
(This is on the basis of generating enough electricity via photovoltaic panels on an annual basis, selling the excess to the grid in the summer and then drawing on the "credit" that has been built up so that the excess offsets the additional requirement during the winter months),.
I believe this is the scenario that is envisaged for small solar installations which are designed to geneaate the total annual household electricity requirement and therefore would lead to a nil (or thereabouts) annual charge for electricity.
Lesley

Dear iwanttobeinitaly,

Not such a stupid idea. Last February the Italian authorities took on board the rules regarding solar energy and other energy saving fundamentals from the king of alternative/solar energy Germany.

So your idea of nil electricity costs is correct, however the capital expenditure would be quite something about €15.000 for the heat pump and associated costs plus for what you are talking about and dependant on the size and make up of your house New or typically Italian. I would suggest photo-voltaics of about 30m2 plus installation an investment of over €20.000 in all probably the best part of €35’ .

Naturally this is offset for the first ten years paying back the loan for the initial investment and the final 10 years would as you said nil. Be careful here because Photo-voltaics loose efficiency after 20 years.

The heat pump you can get a grant for of up to 55% again dependant on the house a refurbishment a new a bit more doubtful.

I would suggest you would be better off insulating the house to the max installing low emission glass. Grants for both of these. An accumulator with wood Burner or if you prefer pellets dependant on the size of your house and the readiness of the supply of each wood product plus some say 10m2 water solar panels for DHW during the summer months again with a grant. After which you could do a case study and I think you’ll find you’ll need a lesser area of photovoltaics and more affordable but unfortunately the same sort of pay back time.

Hope this helps!
Feel free to put me right on any of the above I'd be interested to hear comments

In fact (for iwanttobeinitaly) there is no obligation to power a 'heat pump' solution wth electricity: you may not have come across fridges run by gas, but (and basically, a heat pump is a fridge in reverse), the 'heat pump' part of the solution is independent of the 'prime fuel'. Today, the heat pump solution is probably most economically (in terms of installation cost coupled with running costs) powered by mains powered electricity, but there are alternatives. In addition, the heat pump source is not obligated to be a shallow excavation - a deep dug well can serve also as a geothermal heatsource, killing two birds with one shot.

I think the poster (sorry not to mention by name, but it is on a different webpage and I'm sick of getting timed out!) who produced the spreadsheet comparing all the options is on the right track. Sometimes though, pure economics are not the be all and and all of a 'solution' - and Allan Mason's comments on the downside of pellet stoves should be borne in mind. It is a bit of a 'horses for courses' argument really. And it isn't simply an 'aesthetic' argument (ugly noisy pellet stove looking like an overgrown bunsen burner), it is also about perceptions of comfort. Pellet stoves use fan assistance, and move the air about in a room - a completely different 'comfort zone' from a log burning stove which simply radiates.

Iotan 4850 said
"Wood/solar is a local cost - no transport (or hardly)"

For wood, only if you're very careful indeed where you buy from. My local woodyard, which is a rural 'one man and his wife' operation, gets all of its firewood from Slovenia - approximately 800km away. I would never have known this - but I happened to call in when an extremely large lorry and trailer was delivering it. The pellets I've been buying this year come from Austria, about the same distance - so insofar as far as transport costs alone are concerned these would have been much more economical in terms of heat output per unit of weight or volume.

I do know one place where I can buy locally cut wood, but production of firewood in my area would in no way supply total demand. I suspect that this is true for much of Italy and indeed Italy as a whole - though I haven't been able to track down any import statistics on a brief search.

Conversely, pellets are manufactured in Italy, including places far nearer to me than either Slovenia or Austria.

I agree with your comment on the aesthetics of a pellet boiler in the living room - but for many it need not be an either/or choice. We use a pellet boiler for deep winter central heating and hot water, but a wood stove in the living room for cooler evenings in spring and autumn and for when we want the additional comfort of a 'real fire' in winter. Evidently this is not the cheapest option - but it's all a matter of choice. The very cheapest option of all is (to adapt a remark of Wainwright on the weather) "there is no such things as a cold house, only unsuitable clothing".

Tried that - didn't like it!

Dear iwanttobeinitaly.

We investigated photovoltaic for the installation here. 3 phase 15Kw was quoted at Euro 34000, so Lotan was virtually right at his upper estimation. Decided not to go that route!!!!

In spite of all that has been written before - you'll never convince my other half that anything is better to sit in front of than a 'roaring' log fire

On the solar for electric side of life - the grant system in Italy changed last year, and part of it now comes as a contribution for every KwH you produce (regardless of if you use it yourself or feed it into the grid). I have some good material on this (in Italian) and will endevour to translate some bits for this forum -will start a new thread on the subject when its ready.

This is a very fascinating & tekkie thread but it got to the point wher my head was bursting.
I know that this might seem a little too easy but why not visit as many Italian neighbours as you can, see what they use & ask them what they recommend.
My neighbours, & farmers are always canny when it comes to cost, all seem to swear by large enclosed glass fronted log fires with an all round back boiler system & additional heat extracted from the flue gases. Rads, water, the lot. One neighbour has a very large & warm house running just on this system although he has a backup gas boiler for emergency use. The fire will take fairly large logs the internal dims being about 70cm cube. Theres a lot of hardwood growing round here, much of it oak, seasoned selling now at 13 per quintale but in summer at 8. If your'e not in a hardwood area then, of course, this option is less attractive.
Pilch

Pilchard,

Exactly what I’ve installed with the exception of the accumulator of 2000 litres. This allows me to fire up the back boiler on the wood stove for 3-4 hours which stores the energy for release heating and hot water in the following 24 hours.

We haven’t switched the back up gas boiler on for 9 months. Environmentally friendly, very efficient, cheap and comfortable. Add the solar element to heat the pool and you nearly have the perfect solution.