8810 heating frustration questions continue

Steve.
I would suggest you get a thermal analysis carried out on the house to determine the heating requirements, at least then you will know what is required. As regards to excavating the whole village for a GSHP, then look at the air to water option, no excavations, heats radiators to 65C and works to an external air temp of -20C.

[quote=Steve, cittadino di Ovada;82798]

Today FROLING rep saying that I only need 25KW pellet caldaia with 850 litre accumulator, this will heat the house no problem ( about 23 radiators) and supply 5 shower rooms.
[/quote]

A couple of things.

It's not the number of rads but the total area the rads support. My smallest rad is I think five elements [small] my biggest is twice or more that size. So if you just count rads it won't work. Same thing with the showers. Are they all going to be running at once? How many people are they supporting?

With a big enough store you could run a smaller boiler. Thing is you'll be running the boiler more often then it should. Even on warm days you might be running the thing all out to heat up the tank and get caught up for the cold days. You can guess what happens when you have freak cold weather and the boiler can't catch up.

Steve
This is an enormous area and you’ll have to have a plan on firstly how to address your energy efficiency. I’m assuming you’re not a millionaire and with rising energy prices – it’s only going to get dearer.

After this you can design a heating system. The rules for boilers are correct max 35Kw solid fuel boiler; however with fire brigade approval and fire precautions in and around a specific boiler rum it is possible to have a larger solid fuel boiler than 35Kw. Naturally you can have a gas boiler at 35kw and a solid fuel boiler also at 35Kw without any special requirements.

As regards heat pumps you could drill one or two wells into the ground and use this to source your energy needs. Air heat pumps are quite noisy.

For an accumulator you need to use the following ~10 litres / heated m2 that is to say 3.500 litre accumulator for your property properly insulated. 850 litres is laughable; Italians haven’t got a clue as regards energy efficiency and heat storage.

This is such a large area you need an expert.

:smile:

[quote=lotan4850;82866]Steve
This is an enormous area and you’ll have to have a plan on firstly how to address your energy efficiency. I’m assuming you’re not a millionaire and with rising energy prices – it’s only going to get dearer.

After this you can design a heating system. The rules for boilers are correct max 35Kw solid fuel boiler; however with fire brigade approval and fire precautions in and around a specific boiler rum it is possible to have a larger solid fuel boiler than 35Kw. Naturally you can have a gas boiler at 35kw and a solid fuel boiler also at 35Kw without any special requirements.

As regards heat pumps you could drill one or two wells into the ground and use this to source your energy needs. Air heat pumps are quite noisy.

For an accumulator you need to use the following ~10 litres / heated m2 that is to say 3.500 litre accumulator for your property properly insulated. 850 litres is laughable; Italians haven’t got a clue as regards energy efficiency and heat storage.

This is such a large area you need an expert.

:smile:[/quote]
Boreholes are the most expensive option, unfortunately for heat pumps and mainly used in places like Switzerland, although saying that we have just installed a 150kw system in the north of Italy for a block of apartments that required 10 boreholes. A middle priced alternative to ground loops is to use what are known as compact collectors, which require about 40 sq mtrs and are sited vertically in deeper trenches. These contain the same volume of heating requirement in less area.
Also as an air/ water heat pump is situated outside the house, then the noise level at its peak running time of winter, should not cause any noise disturbance inside the house.

Things have moved on since I installed GSHP in Scandinavia; they have become much more efficient. The norm there was always a 70/100 m deep bore hole obviously not necessary in Italy except for larger heating requirements. We were doing in its hey day 50 bore holes a week in Sweden alone.

As regards noise I tend to be a little bit more considerate towards the neighbours. I’m not a great believer in the “I’m alright Jack” philosophy.

If I remember correctly there is or was a GSHP directly connected only to the under floor heating circuit on an air/water basis and was very economical to run. Naturally gave no hot water but was cheap as cheese.
:smile:

[quote=NickZ;82817]A couple of things.

It's not the number of rads but the total area the rads support. My smallest rad is I think five elements [small] my biggest is twice or more that size. So if you just count rads it won't work. Same thing with the showers. Are they all going to be running at once? How many people are they supporting?

With a big enough store you could run a smaller boiler. Thing is you'll be running the boiler more often then it should. Even on warm days you might be running the thing all out to heat up the tank and get caught up for the cold days. You can guess what happens when you have freak cold weather and the boiler can't catch up.[/quote]

A simple recommendation is to connect the gas boiler to the top third only of the accumulator to avoid heating the whole tank when solid fuel is not available and in the summer months. Much cheaper and economical and the small boiler will have no problem with this.
:smile:

Thanks for the replies.

trouble is finding an expert here in Italy seems impossible.
none so far have inspired confidence.
I was also thinking along the lines of pellet and accumulator for winter and mains gas caldaia for water production at other times.
Do i really need a 3500 lts tank, what chance has a 25KW or even 35KW
caldaia of heating that in a hurry.

Sometimes I do feel like giving up trying to be a little green minded and taking the easy route of two modern gas caldaie but with all the gasn Italy coming from Russia I am a little concerned for future prices.

As for insulation being the best idea, yes, but problem is cost and trying to save house as much as possible in original form. Also in our old village centre it just is not allowed to add insulation to outside as streets are to narrow, inside house would be a huge expense as so many strange angles and windows. Having said all that central Gov regs state that you must insulate even old houses to a certain standard so where physically possible we are trying to put insulation in but I think the house will remain a sieve in heating terms, even with 28 new windows going in and new roof going on.

On another thread read about having to have all builders and plumbers signed up at project stage, just to say in our area in piemonte is just the same, also I am not allowed to do any work on my own house whilst builder is in !.

Steve

Plumb in the gas boiler in the top third of the accumulator. This will in effect let the boiler work against only 1000 litres not the whole 3.500 litres. You’ll have plenty of hot water no problem.

Having a large accumulator is to assist you in the comfort area; you fire up the wood/pellet boilers for 3/4 hours of an evening and it’s enough for the rest of the following 24 hours. You’ll need an accumulator for any solar panels.

You are welcome to see my set up which is in principle the same for all systems but the accumulator is slightly smaller.

By using a large an acc. tank you can get the most efficiency from your solar panels and the solid fuel boilers.

As regards working with the builders: what a load of c***. You need somebody to speak with your geometra and tell him where he can stop his advice. You’re paying the bills you dictate the rules. Not some trumped up geometra.
:smile:

[quote=lotan4850;82889]A simple recommendation is to connect the gas boiler to the top third only of the accumulator to avoid heating the whole tank when solid fuel is not available and in the summer months. Much cheaper and economical and the small boiler will have no problem with this.
:smile:[/quote]

With solar panels he shouldn't have to worry about the summer months. The panels will likely be producing more then he needs if it's sized almost big enough to handle the winter load.

I agree Nick Z: however it is unnecessary to heat the whole acc tank in the winter with a gas boiler. It should only be used as a backup not as a steady supply.
:smile:

He doesn't really need to heat the tank at all with the boiler.

Let the solar heat the storage tank. Feed the preheated water to the gas boiler. If it's hot enough the boiler just pumps it. If not it only needs to raise the water up to the final temperture.

No?

The other thought is with thick stone walls start running the system early. Let the stone walls warm up all fall. This is all off the solar so the only energy use is the pumps. You end up using the walls etc has a heat store.

NickZ - If you are going to combine wood/pellets with solar panels then you need the acc. tank winter and summer. The acc tank alleviates the need having to burn wood all day to maintain a comfortably heated house.

As regards your accumulated heating in the walls; all studies have shown that only the first 5cm can manage the swing from loading to unloading and without insulation on the walls your premise will fail dismally.

Sorry -

[quote=lotan4850;82929]...As regards working with the builders: what a load of c***. You need somebody to speak with your geometra and tell him where he can stop his advice. You’re paying the bills you dictate the rules. Not some trumped up geometra.
:smile:[/quote]

I think you are being a tad unfair to geometras here. If the geometra (as is the norm) is the Director of Works, it is his professional indemnity cover, and indeed his livelihood, 'on the line' if he starts playing fast and loose with health and safety issues (behind why Steve is 'banned' from working while the contractor is on site) or tax evasion issues.

The geometra (if he is good) can make informed judgements on building construction related issues (even when they involve agreeing to deviate from 'regulations'), but it is a bit much to ask him to understand the implications of advising a client on the pitfalls of health and safety or fiscal issues!

thanks again all

It is actually the builders all saying i am unable to work while they work, all due to insurance issues, remember house is in village centre so full safety survey will be in place.

Hope this works trying to add word doc into this forum.
house is old, approx 350m2 to heat by avg. 2.9m tall.
approx half bedrooms, half day rooms. 5 showers unlikely ever all at same time.
Solar panels looking unlikely, see a prvious post re. east southeast roof or west south west roof for solar panels.

following are two replies from pellet heating company engineers, both have seen the house. first longer response is from Austrian maker suggesting 25KW
second is from italian maker suggesting 65KW but paperwork to say 35KW!!!

If anyone wishes to comment please do.
sorry would take me too long to translate.
30 cents a day in summer !!!!!????. where do i sign.
My opinion at the moment seems to be like trying to power the QE2 on an AA battery, probably ok till there is a storm.

mi auguro di essere esauriente rispondendo alle sue domande .

L’accumulo termico da 850 litri , consigliato per un buon funzionamento della caldaia , va installato in sequenza dopo le colonne ambiente ( l’acqua calda che va ai termosifoni ) così facendo diamo sempre priorità di riscaldamento al nostro ambiente .
Termicamente la caldaia , quando accesa , produce sempre 25 KW di potenza mentre solitamente i nostri ambienti non chiedono mai queste potenze : così facendo , una parte di riscaldamento termico inizia ad essere trasferito e recuperato dall’accumulatore .
Portato in temperatura l’ambiente , si porta in temperatura l’accumulo e la caldaia si spegne .
La successiva richiesta di temperatura dei termosifoni viene prelevata , fino a che l’accumulo si raffredda , da quest’ultimo : quando l’accumulo è freddo e l’ambiente richiede ancora temperatura la caldaia si riaccende ed inizia la sequenza su descritta. ( risparmiamo così facendo accensioni della caldaia ).

L’accumulo H3 , inoltre , ha al suo interno la serpentina dove circolano sì 40 litri ma che ci producono per scambio termico 1800 litri ora di acqua calda sanitaria come può vedere dai dati qui sotto riportati che sono gli stessi del depliants :

Scambiatore dell’acqua sanitaria
Superficie riscaldante m2 6,0
Capacità: l 40
Mas. potenza continua scambiatore, tv = 80°C kW 70 80 90
Portata di spillamento in volume 45°C scambiatore, tv = 80°C l/h 1800
Sovrapressione di esercizio ammessa bar 6 6 6
Raccordi Fil. est. 3/4” .

Se utilizzato in estate per la produzione di Acqua calda sanitaria ( senza pannelli solari ) viste le diverse temperature possiamo pensare di consumare 30 cents al giorno di combustibile .
Abbiamo inoltre sempre la possibilità, qualora installiate 2 - 3 pannelli solari , di spegnere la caldaia e interfacciare i pannelli con l’accumulo per il recupero termico .

Non riesco ad interpretare correttamente le sue domande sui tempi , ma provo a rispondere : la caldaia ha all’ interno della centralina la possibilità di gestire accensioni e spegnimenti ad orari a noi congeniali e la medesima cosa può essere gestita da un cronotermostato ambiente : per questo bisognerebbe , qualora desideriate procedere per questa caldaia , concordare con impiantista ed idraulico quali organi installare per non accavallare doppioni dallo stesso uso .
La velocità è uguale a caldaie di altro genere automatico ( gas e gasolio ) : fondamentalmente la caldaia porta in temperatura acqua dai 65 agli 85 ° che trasferisce ai termosifoni con una resa termica del 93% .

La finanziaria 2008 , così come nel 2007 , offre incentivi a chi sostituisce caldaie non a condensazione con altre appartenenti alla seguente certificazione : CE cat. 3 , norm. 303 – 5 .

Un termotecnico deve redigere in duplice copia documentazione utile allo scopo inserendo la normativa Enea sulle biomasse a riguardo : una copia va inviata all’ufficio imposte di Pescara e una all’Enea a Roma .

Con questa documentazione ( senza attendere nessun assenso ) si ha la possibilità di detrarre o recuperare dall’anno successivo il 55% della spesa sostenuta per il termotecnico , l’idraulico e la caldaia , con opzione di scelta da 3 a 10 anni .

Beneficiario / i risultano essere gli esecutori dei bonifici bancari relativi ai pagamenti delle opere descritte.

Allego copia finanziaria 2008 con le FAQ Enea biomasse già utilizzate nel corso del 2007 e certificazione caldaia a pellet.

Sperando di essere stato comprensibile , cordialmente saluto.

Buongiorno,

Le elenco alcuni punti che le sarei grata se potesse chiarirci:

- D'estate la caldaia riscalda tutti i 850L l'acqua nell'accumulatore per produrre solo 40L d'acqua sanitaria? E' un sistema efficiente?
- Quant'è veloce questo tipo di caldaia da 25KW nello scaldare l'acqua accumulata?
- Se arriva un periodo freddo improvviso, quanto tempo ci vuole per riscaldare i termosifoni?
- Bisogna riscaldare in anticipo giorni prima dell'uso, prevedendo l'arrivo del freddo, o qualche ora basta?
- La Finanziaria 2008 prevede fondi, legati al 55%, per chi sceglie un sistema di riscaldamento a biomasse (energia rinnovabile), sa se bisogna per forza avere una caldaia a condensazione per il pellet?

- Il diametro della canna fumaria da inserire nel muro
CONSIGLIO UNA CANNA FUMARIA DA 200-220mm

- escludendo i pannelli solari, per ottenere acqua calda nel
periodo estivo, il sistema deve riscaldare tutta l'acqua
nell'accumulatore ogni giorno?
NO METTENDO UN ACCUMULO DA LITRI 1000 CON INTEGRATO UN
ACCUMULO DA 250LITRI PER SANITARIA, DICIAMO CHE ACCENDERETE
LA CALDAIA SOLO UNA VOLTA OGNI 2-3gg PER CIRCA UN'ORETTA.
TUTTO DIPENDE ANCHE DA QUANTO USATE L'ACQUA CALDA

- se cosÃ, ci vogliono ore per scaldare l'acqua oppure
è un processo più immediato?
L'ACCUMULO NON SCENDE MAI SOTTO I 45 GRADI, SI APPLICA UN
RELE' E UNA SONDA CHE ACCENDE IN AUTOMATICO SE DOVESSE
SCENDERE SOTTO I GRADI IMPOSTATI

- se arriva improvvisamente un periodo freddo, quanto ci
vuole per riscaldare i termosifoni?
CIRCA 2 ORETTE.....
good w.e.

[quote=Charles Phillips;82939]I think you are being a tad unfair to geometras here. If the geometra (as is the norm) is the Director of Works, it is his professional indemnity cover, and indeed his livelihood, 'on the line' if he starts playing fast and loose with health and safety issues (behind why Steve is 'banned' from working while the contractor is on site) or tax evasion issues.

The geometra (if he is good) can make informed judgements on building construction related issues (even when they involve agreeing to deviate from 'regulations'), but it is a bit much to ask him to understand the implications of advising a client on the pitfalls of health and safety or fiscal issues![/quote]

Of course you're right Charles I'm being unduly hard against geometras (I've made my point about geometras in earlier threads); however again let them do the admin. as they seem to be excellent at that. Returning to the thread...
Steve, You need to be objective and skeptical to all manufacturers' advice as you can clearly see. You could be wasting your hard earned (or not) money if the lot fails. You have to submit a thermic programme (unsure of the term) to the commune (legge 10) and you should employ a heating engineer (not a plumber) to work out your heating needs; this should cost you no more than €750 a full design should cost about €1.500. From this if the system doesn't work you can fall back onto the engineers' insurance.

In other words you're covered.

:smile:

[quote=lotan4850;82951]Of course you're right Charles I'm being unduly hard against geometras (I've made my point about geometras in earlier threads); however again let them do the admin. as they seem to be excellent at that. Returning to the thread...
Steve, You need to be objective and skeptical to all manufacturers' advice as you can clearly see. You could be wasting your hard earned (or not) money if the lot fails. You have to submit a thermic programme (unsure of the term) to the commune (legge 10) and you should employ a heating engineer (not a plumber) to work out your heating needs; this should cost you no more than €750 a full design should cost about €1.500. From this if the system doesn't work you can fall back onto the engineers' insurance.

In other words you're covered.

:smile:[/quote]
The law relating to the thermal analysis is as copied below. It relates to new builds primarily. Expect to pay around 3 - 3.50 Euros per square metre for this analysis.

il Suo edificio è già disponibile la relazione per la Legge 10/91 (necessaria per abitazioni recenti ai fini dell’abitabilità), nello specifico il calcolo delle dispersioni termiche, cioè i Kilowatt di potenza termica dissipata?

We had very conflicting views from various heating engineers/plumbers when we bought our house in Piedmont.

In the end, my Italian boss helped us sort it using a reputable plumber that he knew.

His suggestion was to have the four rooms upstairs heated via gas heaters, as we have only a 1000 litre gas tank buried in the garden, and if we had full GSH, it would be very expensive (quite a large house)

For downstairs, we bought a stufe a pellet for the living room (which works well), a wood stufe for the kitchen and the same for another room, meaning all downstairs heating was natural and relatively cost efficient (which, as it turns out, is – we have a huge wood as part of our property)

We had a boiler fitted for the hot water only, which again is more efficient (taking into account the huge cost of gas and electric, compared to the UK), as it only comes on when the hot tap is turned on, and not on all the time like a combi boiler.

The boiler, gas pipes and heaters cost us just over 4000 Euro, which is almost 9000 Euro cheaper than the quotes for full GSH, which would have cost a lot more in bills (although, admittedly would have been the best option if everything was at UK prices)

Chris

Chris66
Unsure what you mean when you write “heating engineer/plumber”. They are called that in the UK but are only plumbers.

With any type of major refurbishment you are required to furnish the commune with a thermal analysis (legge 10). A plumber cannot do this and if he is –it ain’t worth a penny. An engineer can work out exactly your requirements and make a suggestion with this analysis as a starting point.

I would like to know what your bills for gas are excluding wood costs?

Naturally the more boilers you have the more energy you are throwing out through the chimney and of course more chimneys to maintain. It is better to have one boiler coping with all your needs than several small ones - less efficient. So having 1 pellet boiler, 2 stufas and 4 gas heaters strikes me as a bit excessive; however it works for you.

My dislike of stufas is that you have to wear shorts when you are in the vicinity yet by the windows and doors you need a dune jacket. Not my idea of modern living – naturally this is an exaggeration but the analogy works.

So as far as cost efficiency goes I am not in complete agreement with you. Also you now have a winter part time job - loading the pellet boiler and 2 stufas to keep warm as well as a part time job as chimney sweep - not exactly why we moved to Italy.

There are new rules regarding energy efficiency; just like fridges and the likes A-G. A being the best ad G the worst.

This now applies to houses although it is taking its sweet time in arriving. So of course an A house costs more to build and less to run and dictates a higher sales price and a G class house costs less to build and more to run dictates a lower sales price and so on. That’s the idea … and a good one to…
:smile:

[quote=lotan4850;83099]Chris66
Unsure what you mean when you write “heating engineer/plumber”. They are called that in the UK but are only plumbers.

With any type of major refurbishment you are required to furnish the commune with a thermal analysis (legge 10). A plumber cannot do this and if he is –it ain’t worth a penny. An engineer can work out exactly your requirements and make a suggestion with this analysis as a starting point.

I would like to know what your bills for gas are excluding wood costs?

Naturally the more boilers you have the more energy you are throwing out through the chimney and of course more chimneys to maintain. It is better to have one boiler coping with all your needs than several small ones - less efficient. So having 1 pellet boiler, 2 stufas and 4 gas heaters strikes me as a bit excessive; however it works for you.

My dislike of stufas is that you have to wear shorts when you are in the vicinity yet by the windows and doors you need a dune jacket. Not my idea of modern living – naturally this is an exaggeration but the analogy works.

So as far as cost efficiency goes I am not in complete agreement with you– your winter part time job is loading the pellet boiler and 2 stufas to keep warm as well as a part time chimney sweep - not exactly why we moved to Italy.

There are new rules regarding energy efficiency; just like fridges and the likes A-G. A being the best ad G the worst.

This now applies to houses although it is taking its sweet time in arriving. So of course a A house costs more to build and dictates a higher sales price and a G class house costs less to build and more to run dictates a lower sales price and so on. That’s the idea … and a good one to…
:smile:[/quote]

Hi,

We do not have a pellet boiler, just a normal pellet stufe. We only have one small gas boiler to heat all the water in the house/s (we bought 2 restored houses that are terraced – the other house that we plan to use as a B&B already had heating installed)

Initially, keeping the stufe’s stocked up was a bit of a culture shock, being used to the cleaner and hassle free GSH we had in the UK, but we soon got used to it. The stufe’s downstairs are for room heating only, not to heat the water. Only the one stufe is piped through the chimney (in the kitchen), the other two are simply ‘tubi’s’

The work for the gas heaters and boiler was finished at the end of last November. We filled up the gas tank with 600 Euros worth of liquid gas. The heaters have been on at some point every day since, along with daily showers and the cooker is also completely gas fuelled, and we still have plenty of gas in the tank.

If I’m honest, I would have liked to have installed a larger gas tank and have GSH and water throughout, but the quotes we were getting were plain daft, and we were running out of time, as the winter was really beginning to bite – and paying 32 Euro per butane bottle per portable gas heater per week was also beginning to grate.

I do concede that having proper GSH cannot be beat – we just simply were not prepared to pay over double the cost we would have paid for a similar job in the UK (We had completely new GSH installed a couple of years ago in the UK, and it cost £2800 all in)

We had to compromise, and it’s a compromise we can certainly live with.

Think it must be time for me to stop saving an acre of trees each year and the tonne of CO2 as everyone else keeps burning it. My 2 quintale of wood use each year, for esthetic reasons only, pale into insignificance!!!

Chris66

I don't understand the gas cistern is normally owned by the gas supplier. I'm sure if you speak with them they can replace the existing for a larger cistern for nothing or next to nothing.

Their interest lies in selling you liquid gas.

As a reference point we installed in our 250 m2 villa - 40m2 of solar panels, with a 35Kw wood stove with back boiler, 2000 litre accumulator, underfloor heating from Sweden, 22Kw gas condensing boiler, circulating hot water on a budget of €32.000 (2006 prices) installed tested and certified with a plumber from the UK including all tubing pumps and valves. Running costs €600/annum firing up the wood boiler 3 hrs of an evening for the next 24 hrs; maintaining a temp. of 20ºc. The gas boiler has been turned off nearly 11 months now!

We found the prices here more competitive than the UK; I thought the old adage "it's not what you know it's who you know" was appropriate in the UK but I have come to realise it's more appropriate here.

:smile:

[quote=chris66;83100]Hi,

(we bought 2 restored houses that are terraced – the other house that we plan to use as a B&B already had heating installed)

[/quote]
Give me a shout /PM if you want about opening/runing a B&B - rules are "challenging" and your seperate house may be a problem.

32000 Euros Lotan......... expensive!!! You should have gone for GSHP
As a matter of interest Lotan, what did your thermal analysis come out at?

Geotherm, some wouldn't think that expensive so I'll be talking to you about a couple of projects I have on the backburner.

As regards my thermal analysis; I'll have to wade through a mountain of paper to find it - I'll get back to you in a couple of days.

:smile:

Errm, Io's 35KW "stove" sounds rather hefty in the power stakes; I know you have some professional expertise Io, but are you sure you don't mean a boiler? Still, at least your insistence on accumulators (in another thread) is explained by your use of a log burner (as opposed to pellets). That's one confusion out of the way. By the way, are you saying (in that other thread) that, for example, a Viessmann recommended installer isn't competent to advise on specs for a Viessman based, green heating system? Is such a person a "plumber", or a "heating engineer"?

lupo,
Yes a bit hefty, but my wife wanted a large fireplace opening, our living room is over 50m2 and nearly 7 metres in height- and a pokey small fireplace just didn't suit - and the larger the opening the larger the capacity of the boler.

Actually lupo I bought two (buy 2 pay for 1) so in total 70Kw- now you're saying that's over kill. We'll yes you are right it is; but my wife also likes to swim on Christmas and the New Year so I heat the outside pool to 24ºc a couple of times during the winter to keep her happy!

[quote=lotan4850;83109]Chris66

As a reference point we installed in our 250 m2 villa - 40m2 of solar panels, with a 35Kw wood stove with back boiler, 2000 litre accumulator, underfloor heating from Sweden, 22Kw gas condensing boiler, circulating hot water on a budget of €32.000 (2006 prices) :smile:[/quote]

Wow! €32.000 at 2006 prices. That's about €36.000 today given building sector inflation. Did this amount include the thermal engineer's fee? Seems like he/she made a big mistake concerning the required capacity for a 250 m2 house. I would ask for a refund. How many years do you expect to recoup this investment? I would anticipate climate change to happen first before dreaming to get my money back on this one!

We didn’t come here to keep up with the rat race and the sad life some have chasing the evergreen dollar … recoup our investment… really get a life!

If we were we believe a 60% return on our investment costing under €800/m2 in construction costs in 13 months is a pretty good return were we to sell.

Obviously your low plumbing budget excludes 3 wet-room bathrooms, WC, kitchen, irrigation system, pool, porcelain, taps and not forgetting of course the plumber to install it all.

I’ll treat your sad lack of knowledge and ignorance of the building industry price indices with the contempt it deserves.
:smile:

Feel sorry for you and to other readers who have to put up with this. The 'layman' as you loved calling me in previous threads seems to have got you going again. By the way, I have spent €750 sq.m on the completion of a fully restored 300 sq.m (tonnes of marble and cotto fatto mano, new roof, big terrace, 3 balconies, new floors, new interior walls, new beams, 3 wet-room bathrooms, 25 chestnut windows with internal +external shutters, new plumbing, new wiring,... etc etc) thanks to my Macedonian building buddies and Italian plumber and electrician. Have another 50sq.m summer house to do + swimming pool. My heating system works brilliantly: termocamino, solar panel and now gas boiler (about a third of what you paid). Have had no heating bills in 2 years and have never had a cold bath/shower, thanks to my renewable sources of energy (the sun's free and I have a bosco + olive trees). Guess what, I didn't pay a 'professional' €1500 to tell me that my 6 ele rad should have been an 8 ele one, or where to position by portable fan heater if on the event my heating system fails.

Most readers here are indeed chasing Euros/greenbacks - get real - or do you have money to burn - seems like this is the case on your extremely efficient heating system!!!!! I’m outa here.

'My heating system works brilliantly: termocamino, solar panel and now gas boiler (about a third of what you paid). Have had no heating bills in 2 years and have never had a cold bath/shower, thanks to my renewable sources of energy (the sun's free and I have a bosco + olive trees).'

This sounds very encouraging AdaminNarni! Which termocamino have you used and does it keep the window clear or does it smoke up? Are you putting heat from the termo and solar panel into an accumulator or are you just running the rads off the termo and the hot water system separately off the solarthermal panel?
Do the rads use up all the heat from the termo or do you have a sort of overflow set-up for any extra heat to be lost? Sorry so many questions!
Thanks.

contadino: my termocamino is from JollyMec, here's the model:

[url=http://www.jolly-mec.it/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=53]JOLLY-MEC Caminetti - Termojolly[/url]

got a fantastic deal on it in 2004. The engineering behind it is mindboggling. It functions like a 'combi', instantaneous hot water for acqua sanitaria and serves rads for a surface area of about 180-200 sq.m. It is though at the limit for this sort of area, but it has an exceptionally efficient burning and hot water generation system (patented technology) - little wood much energy. The window does get smokey, but I wipe with a dry cloth everytime i load with wood, so things are kept under control. It's real fun operating this system - just love watching the roaring flames! I purchased a solar panel last summer together with an accumulator. Installed gas boiler a month ago, and today (yes today!) having all systems hooked up so that they work together. As for your last question, my 5-star plumber will explain to me how it all works, and I'll get back to you. All I know is that I expect to have a very cosey home for little running costs - gas costs do scare me - untried and untested.

It’s all about physics…

The reason for the smoky glass to your fireplace is insufficient oxygen causing the wood to burn at a lower temperature resulting in incomplete burning of all the gas components and depositing on the glass door. The moisture content of the wood; seasoned wood is best; unseasoned over 16% moisture content needs more oxygen to achieve the necessary high temperature to burn all the gas components. You can actually have an adverse effect with too high moisture content resulting in a cooling effect and lessening the efficiency of the boiler and increasing the deposits on the glass and flue (tar deposits which can lead to chimney fires).

The most efficient way to burn wood (seasoned wood) is as quickly as possible with as much oxygen as possible. Through the high temperature you releases the maximum energy content (which is max 5.4Kw/kg wood). All the gumph and technology about boilers controlling the airflow are OK but this just makes them less efficient. Why. Any reduction of oxygen levels or chilling of the Termocamine using it as a DHW heater reduces the temperature in the fire resulting in incomplete burning, less efficiency and deposits as on your glass door and condense on the boiler walls.

As the most efficient way to burn wood is as quickly as possible and this rather conflicts with a modern living approach; one probably needs to earn a living. Also impractical having to keep the home fires burning to give warmth and DHW 24/7. Rather time consuming thus the accumulator comes into it’s own (a heat store). By burning the wood quickly and efficiently you store the extra energy you are producing surplus to your consumption in the accumulator for use at a later time.

The accumulator

Without an accumulator you are only saving money when the “”termocamine” is running 24/7 ; this - as said - is impractical and incompatible to modern life. By firing up a boiler as large as possible as these are more efficient then one or two smaller ones for say 3 hours a day in the evening you release enough energy from the wood in this space of time to store in the accumulator to use for the following 24 hours as heating or DHW. Naturally the accumulator needs to be dimensioned for each individual case.

An accumulator is the heart of any flexible heating system and can be connected to any number of energy producing methods elnel/gas/wood/solar and then via motorised valves distribute the energy through out the house as DHW & heating…. It also needs to be insulated with a minimum of 40 cm insulation. Less heat losses to adjacent spaces and during the summer you can fire up once a week and have enough hot water for 5/7 days. Unless you have solar attached.

The most efficient way of heating a house is through under floor heating as this is a low temperature heating system and gives the best exchange when using an accumulator. The return water will be pushed into the bottom of the tank where it stratifies. The lower the temperature of the water (in the case of wood not too low as this gives rise to condense) the more efficient the boilers and the solar panels as the cooler water can absorb and transport energy more readily back to the accumulator and away from their heating surfaces of the generating appliance.

The accumulator must be allowed to stratify and in Italy this is not the praxis. It’s all mixed up which causes condensing problems on the outside of the termocamine which reduces their life span, lowers the temperature of the fire causing it to be less efficient and leaves residues on flues and glass.

I’ve probably bored you enough however if you are really interested see [url=http://www.termoventiler.se]Termoventiler - Laddomat 21 - Thermomatic CBJ[/url] all in English.

:smile:

Lotan, thanks for this. Very insightful. I certainly have experimented, learned and noted the effects of different wood over the past couple of years (seasoned versus unseasoned, softer woods versus harder woods, etc), and what you say is completely true - it all makes sense now to me.

I would like to know what type of wood has the highest unit energy content. Also, is any seasoned wood ok, or should I be careful? I don't want my chimney to catch fire on the resin.

Highly valuable info about the accumulator. Points taken. Great, thanks. Hope other present and future termocamino-ers can benefit from this info as well.

looking forward to a response about my wood query.

AdamInNarni

[quote=AdamInNarni;83857]Lotan, thanks for this. Very insightful. I certainly have experimented, learned and noted the effects of different wood over the past couple of years (seasoned versus unseasoned, softer woods versus harder woods, etc), and what you say is completely true - it all makes sense now to me.

I would like to know what type of wood has the highest unit energy content. Also, is any seasoned wood ok, or should I be careful? I don't want my chimney to catch fire on the resin.

Highly valuable info about the accumulator. Points taken. Great, thanks. Hope other present and future termocamino-ers can benefit from this info as well.

looking forward to a response about my wood query.

AdamInNarni[/quote]

I can't find my tables for this but if I remember oak (5.3kw/kg) has the highest energy content and abete rosso (4.6kw/kg) is the lowest at 16% the moisture content. But the general consensus in the industry on energy content to accommodate wood types and the varying levels of moisture content - most settle for an average of 4 - 4,5 Kw/kg at 30% moisture content but in my opinion this level is way to high as you must take in to account the cooling effect this moisture has on the efficiency of the boiler.

From the resins point of view there is hardly any difference between them as long as the temperature of the actual fire remains above 500ºc and above where the gas is combusted and all the resins is most important.
:smile:

Since the fearful subject of chimney fires has been mentioned its worth knowing that you can burn little packets to loosen the deposits in the chimney to avoid the creosote build up that produces a chimney fire. In the UK you can buy boxes for about £10 - produced by Stovax and called Chimney Protector. Usually sold in solid fuel stove shops or on the internet. I haven't seen them on display in Italy - doesn't mean they're not in the magazzino though.

AdaminNarni - it's very encouraging to see we can start with a termo and later add on to it. It's too daunting to try to get solar, wood, gas, underfloor all linked up efficiently until we're living there full time and can control the work, and know what we're doing. I look forward to hearing any more info you can get. Thanks!

Beechwood fires are bright and clear
If the logs are kept a year.
Chestnut's only good, they say,
If for long 'tis laid away.
But Ash new or Ash old
Is fit for a queen with crown of gold.
Birch and fir logs burn too fast
Blaze up bright and do not last.
It is by the Irish said
Hawthorn bakes the sweetest bread.
Elm wood burns like churchyard mould,
E ' en the very flames are cold.
But Ash green or Ash brown
Is fit for a queen with golden crown.
Poplar gives a bitter smoke,
Fills your eyes and makes you choke.
Apple wood will scent your room
With an incense like perfume.
Oaken logs, if dry and old.
Keep away the winter's cold.
But Ash wet or Ash dry
A king shall warm his slippers by.

Oaken logs, if dry and old,
Keep away the winter's cold
Poplar gives a bitter smoke
, Fills your eyes, and makes you choke
Elm wood burns like churchyard mould
, E'en the very flames are cold
Hawthorn bakes the sweetest bread -
Or so it is in Ireland said,
Applewood will scent the room,
Pearwood smells like flowers in bloom,
But Ashwood wet and Ashwood dry,
A King can warm his slippers by.

Beechwood logs burn bright and clear,
If the wood is kept a year
Store your Beech for Christmas-tide,
With new-cut holly laid aside
Chestnut's only good, they say
If for years it's stored away
Birch and Fir wood burn too fast,
Blaze too bright, and do not last
Flames from larch will shoot up high,
And dangerously the sparks will fly...
But Ashwood green,
And Ashwood brown
Are fit for Queen with golden crown.

Grade: 1 = Poor
Grade: 2 = Low
Grade: 3 = Good
Grade: 4 = High.

Common Name Botanical Name Comments Grade
Alder Alnus A low quality firewood Grade: 1
Apple Malus Needs to be seasoned well. Burns well with a pleasant smell and without sparking/spitting. Grade: 3
Ash Fraxinus Considered to be one of the best woods for firewood. It has a low water content (approx. 50%) and can be split very easily with an axe. It can be burned green but like all wood is best when seasoned. Burns at a steady rate and not too fast. Grade: 4
Beech Fagus Beech has a high water content (approx. 90%) so only burns well when seasoned well. Not as good as Oak. Grade: 3
Birch Betula Birch is an excellent firewood and will burn unseasoned. However, it does burn very fast so is best mixed with slower burning wood such as Elm or Oak. Grade: 3-4
Cedar Cedrus A good firewood which burns well with a pleasant smell. Gives off a good, lasting heat. Doesn't spit too much and small pieces can be burned unseasoned Grade: 2
Cherry Prunus Needs to be seasoned well. Burns well with a pleasant smell and without spitting. Grade: 2-3
Elm Ulmus A good firewood but due to its high water content of approximately 140% (more water than wood!) it must be seasoned very well. It may need assistance from another faster burning wood such as Birch to keep it burning well. However it gives off a good, lasting heat and burns very slowly. Dutch Elm Disease is producing a constant & plentiful supply of small dead hedgerow Elm trees of a small diameter. Larger pieces of wood will prove difficult to split. Grade: 2-3
Eucalyptus Eucalyptus Allow to season well since the wood is very wet (sappy) when fresh. Can be difficult to split due to stringy wood fibre. Best method is to slice into rings and allow to season during the summer, the rings will start to split themselves. Burns fast with a pleasant smell and without spitting. Grade: 2-3
Hawthorn Crataegus Good firewood. Burns well Grade: 3-4
Hazel Corylus Excellent firewood. Allow to season. Burns fast but without spitting Grade: 4
Holly Ilex Can be burnt green. A good firewood Grade: 3
Hornbeam Carpinus Good firewood. Burns well Grade: 3
Horse Chestnut Aesculus A low quality firewood Grade: 2
Larch Larix Needs to be seasoned well. Spits excessively while it burns and forms an oily soot within chimney's. Grade: 1
Lime Tilia A low quality firewood Grade: 2
Oak Quercus One of the best firewood's. When seasoned well, it gives off a good, lasting heat. Burns reasonably slowly. Grade: 4
Pear Pyrus Needs to be seasoned well. Burns well with a pleasant smell and without spitting. Grade: 3
Pine Pinus Needs to be seasoned well. Spits while it burns and forms an oily soot within chimney's. Grade: 1
Plane Platanus A usable firewood Grade: 3
Poplar Populus Considered a poorer firewood (see comments below) Grade: 1
Rowan Sorbus aucuparia Good firewood. Burns well Grade: 3
Spruce Picea A low quality firewood Grade: 2
Sweet Chestnut Castanea Burns when seasoned but spits continuously and excessively. Not for use on an open fire and make sure wood-burning stoves have a good door catch Grade: 1-2
Sycamore (Maples) Acer pseudoplatanus Good firewood. Burns well Grade: 3
Walnut Juglans A low quality firewood Grade: 2
Wellingtonia Sequoiadendron Poor for use as a firewood. Grade: 1
Willow Salix Willow has a high water content so only burns well when seasoned well Grade: 2
Yew Taxus A usable firewood Grade: 2-3

[quote=AdamInNarni;83773] My heating system works brilliantly: termocamino, solar panel and now gas boiler (about a third of what you paid). Have had no heating bills in 2 years and have never had a cold bath/shower, thanks to my renewable sources of energy (the sun's free and I have a bosco + olive trees). [/quote]

I am completely technically blonde on how it all works but we have termocamino, solar panels and gas boiler and are very happy with this solution. Minimal gas bills since the termocamino went in, hardly any gas usage (apart from cooking and occasional grey day hot water usage) since the solar panels went in. We don't have a bosco so we do have to pay for wood (although we do scavenge a lot of windfall in the public wine wood near us).

Our first year hear our gas bill was near to 2000 euros, and we were buying wood for a then smoky and inefficient open fire. Now the gas bill is less than 150 euros a year.

I am glad to hear this. It potentially confirms my fairly short experience with alternate heating systems running in tandem. I would like to reiterate what I said in one of my earlier posts (not sure in this thread though - seems duplication), that when in the process of installing new heating systems, we ought not to blindly opt for GPL, esp. for larger houses. I have heard from many people including friends and those in the forum that monthly GPL costs for the winter can run in the order of Euro 1000+ per month for bigger houses. For larger houses in retrospect, I would say that if you don't trust your plumber (I did, and worked out for me) then use a thermal engineer to provide you with an optimal heating design.

Seasoned wood makes all the difference for heat generation. I would like to know from Cassini about the burning quality of olive wood. Many of us who have a bit of land will undoubtedly have an olive grove. Olive seasoned after a couple of years is truly superb in my opinion. The heat generation from olive is truly scarey when loaded in my termocamino. It even burnt a hole in my brand-new BBQ last summer.

I am no expert in this field but let common sense and a small bit of research prevail. Do the sums. Don't forget that Italy has a fair bit of sun (an understatement?) so get those solar panels mounted! I have had many a hot shower in freezing cloudy days last month.

It's also so satisfying using renewable energy. Having a hot shower / sitting by a rad from scavenged wood feels so much better than hearing that gas boiler kick-in.

We live the winters in Norway where almost everybody fires with wood. And wood is always a discussion theme when prices are mentioned. Here we buy wood by volume, not by weight. And hence the prices differ accordingly.

But the main thing is that ALL wood gives the same KW/h by weight.

If the wood is 100% dry (nearly impossible, but can be done in lab for testing) it gives 5,32 kw/h per kg.

When the wood has 20% moist (realistic trade quality) it gives 4,26 kw/h.

How fast it burns rely on how small or big the pieces of wood is. If one wants to heat much in a short time, use small pieces, to keep the fire going for a long time, use big.