8815 conto energia

We are slightly further south in northern Abruzzo but need exactly the same answers!!!

I’m sure somebody will put me right on a few of the points I make here on this thread. I’m not word perfect …. so I’ll start the ball rolling….

For restorations you need to employ (on a fixed fee) a heating engineer (not a plumber) to do a plan for the house and the recommendations being made to improve energy efficiency. This is then submitted to the local authorities for approval and then you are ready to commence the works.

There are a number of areas where a grant is applied such as low emission glass, insulation walls and roof spaces, accumulators, heat pumps, solar power (water); there may be one or two others. These can get as much as a 55% grant.

This is where you may be running aground using photovoltaics to run a heat pump. For photovoltaics the rules are different.

In principle an electrical engineer works out exactly the area of photovoltaics you need to arrive at a “zero” invoice +/- €100/annum for your house.
All the energy you produce via the photovoltaics goes to the grid and Enel pay you around €0,40/Kw and you import what you need at €0,176/Kw. The idea is to arrive at zero no invoice for electricity. You enter into an agreement with Enel for 20 years or maybe the state.

A simplistic example a house requires 35m2 of photovoltaics and optimistic calculation for purchase and installation is €20.000. The yearly bill is about €2.000. So instead of paying Enel you pay the bank for 10 years and the last 10 years you pay nothing for your electricity. Naturally your export/import conto is monitored. After 20 years the photovoltaic panels have about 5-10 years left and these last few years are at a reduced efficiency. The bills start to arrive again.

Anybody out there feel free to put me right!!

[quote=sanje48;82858]can anybody explain to me how the conto energia works? we have just bought a house in le marche and are about to embark on a rebuild project. I would like to install a ground source heat pump, powered by photovoltaic panels and we've been told that the conto energia allows for selling energy back to the grid at favourable rates and that there are available special loans which make the installation costs virtually zero. I would be extremely grateful if someone can explain how the whole thing works in plain english laymans terms. has anybody gone down this road ?
I have two other queries. Is it worth installing a rainwater collection system in central le marche and is it worth making a well for our plot of land, 7000 mq, on which we have 55 olive trees.[/quote]

Hello sanje48,
Whilst I am completely with you on your idea for heating using photovoltaic panels I am not entirely sure here in Le Marche is the best area for such a system.
Firstly after living here for the last four years and having restored my own property you could say I have a very good idea of the pitfalls. I personally don't have any knowledge of that system except what I have read. Whilst it seems a fanstatic system for modren housing I dont know how it would work on a property here. There are a few questons you need to ask yourself.
1. What type of property have you brought and how do you intend to restore that property. ie; old stone farmhouse or modern block?
2. Are there more effective systems that would heat your house using local energy sources? I use wood from sustainable woodland.
3. Are there properly qualified professionals in the area capable if installing such a system? Unfortunitly you will find many people here claim to know what they are doing, but really don't.
4. Why are you installing the system? I don't mean to be harsh, but is it a trendy thing to do or are you really looking to be eco-friendily.
As I said earlier it's a great idea but knowing the way things work here I wouldn't want to you spend all that money than end up with a system that either doesn't work or costs you far more than you thought.

Further to my above comments. Rain collection here in Le Marche is really important. As shown from last year where there was very little snow during winter and incredibly hot summer most people "orto's" die the death. I would say though that as it doesn't rain very much during the summer maybe a well would be more appropraite.
I am at the moment in the process of installing a underground garden watering system for some people here in Le Marche and due to the possible water shortages it is causing quite a headache to ensure sufficent water every day for their garden.
Bear in mind wells depending on where you live can cost fortune to dig.

[quote=sanje48;82858]can anybody explain to me how the conto energia works? we have just bought a house in le marche and are about to embark on a rebuild project. I would like to install a ground source heat pump, powered by photovoltaic panels and we've been told that the conto energia allows for selling energy back to the grid at favourable rates and that there are available special loans which make the installation costs virtually zero. I would be extremely grateful if someone can explain how the whole thing works in plain english laymans terms. has anybody gone down this road ?
I have two other queries. Is it worth installing a rainwater collection system in central le marche and is it worth making a well for our plot of land, 7000 mq, on which we have 55 olive trees.[/quote]
What size gshp are you considering, as most over 11kw output are 3 phase systems. As a couple of examples a 11kw single phase @ 0/35C emitted/supplied output is 10.7/2.2 kw. A 17kw 3 phase is 16.7/3.7 kw. The unit that we have here also has electrical back-up boost of 3, 6, or 9kw for peak load usage and DHW system bacteria elimination.
Peak demand on the pump during the winter months is usual around 12 hours per day using underfloor heating in a stone type house, with good insulation though you could reduce this figure.
With the photovoltaics then you need to take this all into account and as lotan says your first step is to use a thermal engineer to find out exactly what is required. As a guide price it is normally approx 3.5 Euros per square metre, but at least you know what is required. Last year on a 300sq mtr stone house the heating requirement came out at 17kw, with 2cm of insulation in the walls this would have reduced it to 14kw.

Complimenting Geotherm above - on a house with 14 cm insulation in the walls, 35 cm insulation in the roof space you need for a 250m2 house for heating only is under 5Kw!!

Insulation pays for itself and is the most cost effective way of reducing the heating requirement. The pay back is the best of all other methods. We can harp on and on about sophisticated heat pumps (sorry Geothem), efficient heat exchangers, solar panels, and all the rest but nothing beats insulation.

The norm for passive houses in Germany is 15Kw/m2/annum heating was some ridiculous low level. Walls comprise 30 cm insulation, floors 20cm and roof spaces 40-50cm. The residual heat and the white goods through an ingenious HVAC system heats the house and when the kids leave get yourself a dog or two (keeps you fit as well to boot).

I'm sure I'll get some feed back from you Brits with your stone houses and the aesthetics and all the difficulties you would encounter. But careful planning and execution and instead trying to achieve an average low thermal transference is better then continuing to pollute as we are doing for our grandchildren and it's cheaper on the wallet except for you millionaires out there.

I'll get off my high horse now - sorry.

I totally agree with you but we are am making a stone house look beautiful by not doing too much to alter it! Apart from double glazing and some insulation in between the roof and underoof.That's it.

We are having 5 rads and will install solar panels for water and a pellet boiler for rads/water.

I basically would expect to dress very warmly all winter and have the heat set to the lowest possible temp.I doubt that we would use any more power than someone who had a new build with all the insulation and heated it to 25degs all winter.

One day I would like to start from scratch with a brand new house designed to be totally energy efficient but for now I'm settling for something else!

Back to the original post.Why would anyone need to get permission to put in heater boiler? Am I missing something?

Manopello
Even in a super modern house you should never have the thermostat over 20ºc (if u/f heated 18ºc). The higher the temperature the higher the heat loses and the higher the bills. 18/20ºc is ample and when you’re sitting still a jumper. Back to the thread…..

The “vigili di fuoco” rules are for solid boilers - is a maximum of 35kw output in a residential house without any special fire precautions; larger requires special permission from them via the planning authorities and this will mean fire precautions to storage spaces and the boiler room itself (can’t be in the living room). However it is not forbidden just a higher criteria.
:smile:

many thanks to all who have attempted to answer my admittedly open ended question. first off, my interest in GSHP, PV etc is not because its trendy but because i see the energy crisis from a personal as well as a world point of view and would like to ensure a low cost source of energy for my old age as well as helping to save the planet. but i am finding it extremely difficult to wade through the mountains of information on the question, a lot of it difficult to decipher from a laywomans point of view. and also because these new technologies are just that, new, its difficult to know who to trust in the market place when trying to research the best and most cost effective methods.
I can be a bit more precise about our particular circumstances. We are knocking down and rebuilding a stone house which will end up being 200mq. this will be rebuilt using anti seismic bricks and clad on the outside with the stone from the existing building. we are also able to salvage most of the roof tiles. I take the point, Iotan about good insulation being paramount and had already suspected that this would be key to achieving a house that is comfortable and cheap to heat, but again what kind and how much on doors walls and underfoot is optimum on a house like ours? we get conflicting advice on this as well. (what is an HVAC system by the way?) if you had a super insulated house maybe it would be sufficient to have a couple of super efficient glass doored wood fireplaces and forget all the rest?? we dont have an unlimited budget for this project and want to be sure before we start that the road we take is the most viable and cost effective.
The point cacciatore makes about finding people in the region competent to undertake PV or gshp is a good one, locally people only seem to talk about pellet boilers but there are some companies around civitanova who seem to understand the technologies. but they all have their own axe to grind and like i said its difficult to find impartial and informed advice. Apropos the well, if we were drilling for a gshp could we drill for the well at the same time and or in the same place?

I’m sorry sanje48 you’re never going to get answers to all your questions on the forum. I can only suggest that you contact a bilingual Project Manager to tie your project together against the bureaucracy of Italy and the ignorance of the Italian building industry as regards insulation and energy efficiency in general.

:smile:

Sanje48,

HVAC is Heating/Ventilation & air conditioning system normally with a heat recovery; so as not to exhaust heated air.
:smile:

looks like there is a typo in the above link ... i assume it should be [url=http://www.casaverdeitalia.com]Property for sale in Italy tuscany liguria emilia romagna[/url]

ps - I guess (from the website biog & your posts here) that it's your own website? I have no problem at all with that, and it sounds like a very helpful service. Would be worth you clarifying this though - that will help others to understand the basis of the advice you offer here. Many other users who have a business but are also active forum members stick their URL in their signature so it's immediately apparent in their postings?

Thanks Pigro - Of course you are right however my intention has never been to tout for business; any business is by referral only - a brief lapse in concentration on my part - my apologises.

My postings are purely personal to help, stimulate debate and air my grievances against the Italian building industry primarily geometras!

:smile:

Grid-tied solar systems and the related mortgages have been discussed in the past. Do a search it should pull up the info. Problem is who knows what will happen after the election?

If you ever intend to sell the place think hard about doing anything too far out of the ordinary. To a certain extent this even extends to getting a future loan on the home.

You might want to look at any of the traditonal Italian building types that are designed to be easy to cool and heat. Things like trullio for example. You'll find many of the "modern" ideas are just going back to the old ways.

Dear Sanje48,

If you are not living in your house the whole year around, a PV-array will probably not be the best solution to your energy-needs.

Just to clarify, the Conto Energia operates with a renumeration scheme where they pay you a fixed fee (around 0,40 euro/kwh depending on integration) for 20 years, and then regulating your electricity bill with "scambio sul posto" or net-metering, which basically means that the energy you produce during the day will go to Enel while you withdraw in the night, when your PV-array is not producing. One will therefore tend to project a PV-array so that the energy outcome matches (a bit below) your house's annual energy requirement, thereby making you pay an electricity bill of "near-zero". This is done because GSE will not pay you the difference if you do not consume it all (which would happen if the house is empty during long periods), they maintain your positive energy balance for your consumption for 3 years, whereafter it will be lost. GSE, [url=http://www.gse.it]GSE Home Page[/url] is responsible for the renumeration scheme, check out their website before anything else.

The general problem with PV in Italy is that everybody is pretending to be able to install and in fact it is not so much the installation in itself that is the problem, but finding an efficient after-sales service. Choosing a company you should not just look at price but also (I'd say especially) product (panel and inverter) guarantees.

Regarding drilling a water well, it costs around 75 euro/meter (we had one made last year in the order for our irrigation to be able to run during the summer, despite of draght), but first you have to find the right place to drill...we had a "sensitive" to come and take a walk with a couple of cupper sticks, he was payed with an "offer" of around 100 euro - we found water at 17 meters depth ;-).

Ciao
Liset

Hi,
depending on the stage you have reached in your rebuild have you considered putting in a cavity wall with a cavity of 50mm and filling it with an appropriate insulating material. you would only need to do this on your external walls!!

[quote=Liset;108230]One will therefore tend to project a PV-array so that the energy outcome matches (a bit below) your house's annual energy requirement, thereby making you pay an electricity bill of "near-zero". This is done because GSE will not pay you the difference if you do not consume it all (which would happen if the house is empty during long periods), they maintain your positive energy balance for your consumption for 3 years, whereafter it will be lost.[/quote]

Just if anybody should consider PV, as from 1st Jan 2009, the 3 year time limit mentioned earlier for consumption of your positive energy credit has been removed. You will instead be able to ask to be paid the difference at the end of the year, or keep the credit with no time limit on it. The contracts with GSE still run for 20 years.

Liset