8481 Tutor

If you surf over to the slowtrav forums you will see threads on people getting tickets up to three years after the offence. So if you are using a non Italian car not getting a ticket yet doesn't mean much.

[quote=lotaresco;79481]
I must say that so far that despite having hit speeds of 240km/h on the autostrade I haven't had a knock on the door or a letter from anyone. BTW, if anyone knows the lat/long of Autovelox and Tutor positions I would be very interested, because I'm helping to compile a GPS database of positions.[/quote]

Do us all a favour and compile a database of roads that you use regularly, so that we can avoid you!

[quote]dont think it is legal in switzerland to use "safety" camera location gps systems.
[/quote]

sat nav systems with camera databases should be fine,what was a no,no, was radar detectors. ie systems that could locate non fixed location speed trapsofficers with guns or vans.

Of corse switzerland could be diferent,but with most modern sat navs having the capability for housing fixed speed traps or even popular locations for non fixed speedtraps,cannot see how the swiss could apply such a law,as sat navs are legal even in switzerland,they would have to go through your database to see if you were indeed breaking said law.

On my garmin it would take them the best part of a working shift,and thinking about it,cannot remember it biping a speed trap location whilst in switzerland.....

I understand that the French traffic police are now confiscating satnavs if they have speed traffic locations or detectors on them. Thing is, hope that the audible warnings give you time to hide them!!!!!!!!!!

[quote=Marc;79497]Do us all a favour and compile a database of roads that you use regularly, so that we can avoid you![/quote]
Have travelled many times at +240Kph Marc, on French motorways people see you coming and have a good lane discipline and move out of the way, the Italians unfortunately think that they can pull out at 120 kmh, 2 kms before they are going to pass even though you are virtually on top of them.

[quote=Marc;79497]Do us all a favour and compile a database of roads that you use regularly, so that we can avoid you![/quote]

dearest marc ,i beg to differ,avoid me too,i enjoy fast driving which unlike most here, if i ever decide to go to the old yookay i go thru germany to get some driving into the journey at 200kph +,however this tutor business(especially on the A.14) is the pits!
i'm losing points off the old licence like confetti....from 20 points i'm down to eight now... not to mention fines, now if i go to Roma i have to go thru Abruzzo to avoid the sods on the salaria (too slow anyway)...f..k them ,my next car will be a real petrol governor from usa..otherwise a dull old world with eveything the same and pottering about in some electric or hydrogen carcass of a vehicle hoping the world will last a little bit longer...but why?
as someone wrote in this forum "driving in italy seems to involve overtaking at 200k. to continue for three hundred metres only to stop at a bar for for a couple of hours"...esatto!

[quote=Marc;79497]Do us all a favour and compile a database of roads that you use regularly, so that we can avoid you![/quote]

Why do you want to avoid me?

[quote=Geotherm;79521]I understand that the French traffic police are now confiscating satnavs if they have speed traffic locations or detectors on them. Thing is, hope that the audible warnings give you time to hide them!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

Unless this is something very very new, i think you will find they too have no problems with satnavs that have speed camera location data stored on them. only radar detectors,and of corse there are a few sat navs with that [angel]
these are illegal if used.

Viamichelin, part of the michelin group have an excellent stored data of speedtraps for france and other countries. well worth downloading.

[quote=giovanni;79528]Viamichelin, part of the michelin group have an excellent stored data of speedtraps for france and other countries. well worth downloading.[/quote]

I prefer to use the database from PocketGPS World. I'm a contributor to the database and PGW strive very hard to keep the data up to date, it's also in my opinion about the cheapest subscription service available.

[url=http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/subscription.php]Become a Member of PocketGPSWorld.com[/url]

[quote=lotaresco;79529]I prefer to use the database from PocketGPS World. I'm a contributor to the database and PGW strive very hard to keep the data up to date, it's also in my opinion about the cheapest subscription service available.

[url=http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/subscription.php]Become a Member of PocketGPSWorld.com[/url][/quote]

I thought they only did the uk.? shows what i know.!

but this one is free...[url=http://www.viamichelin.co.uk/viamichelin/gbr/GPS/htm/nav/telechargement.htm]GPS - Products - ViaMichelin GPS Navigation[/url]

[quote=giovanni;79528]Unless this is something very very new, i think you will find they too have no problems with satnavs that have speed camera location data stored on them. only radar detectors,and of corse there are a few sat navs with that [angel]
these are illegal if used.

Viamichelin, part of the michelin group have an excellent stored data of speedtraps for france and other countries. well worth downloading.[/quote]
Gio.
I only saw this within the last couple of months, so it may well be quite new. Will try to find the article again and set the link up on the thread.

How fast is 240 km per hour in old money?

[quote=mungo;79534]How fast is 240 km per hour in old money?[/quote]

just short of 150 mph..

[quote=giovanni;79528]Unless this is something very very new, i think you will find they too have no problems with satnavs that have speed camera location data stored on them. only radar detectors,and of corse there are a few sat navs with that [angel]
these are illegal if used.

Viamichelin, part of the michelin group have an excellent stored data of speedtraps for france and other countries. well worth downloading.[/quote]
Gio.
This was from a Telegraph motoring article earlier his year, whether true or not I honestly don't know.
""Just a note to warn readers that the French police are getting really funny about sat-navs that are pre-loaded with speed camera locations. Some British motorists have received fines of about £1,000 if caught in possession and the police can confiscate your car. It's best not to take detector sat-navs to France at the moment. The route-planning facility at [url=http://www.viamichelin.com]ViaMichelin: street map, maps, map UK, route finder, route planner, directions, road map, route map[/url] provides all the fixed camera locations in France.
Kev, France

# Thanks for the warning.""

Plus another useful link
/www.globalpositioningsystems.co.uk/forum/ftopic5796.html

bloody french ! I recall not long ago a similar "french thing" where they were unhappy with tourist buying ciggies from outside france and then taking them through france back home.

Cannot remember anything coming of this story,i believe it went against EU law.

As for the sat nav,again those "bloody french" would really need to know if it was because of these road angel devices[they are a sat nav and radar detector] and not that good as a sat nav either.

If i can find a definative answer i will post. know a few caravan forums and they are always going on about how great here and there is,and the devices they use......

But have to say,have herd nothing from the truckers out there,and believe me they love a moan.........

I don't know about avoiding the speedy lotaresco - it would be giovanni who would terrify me: he's speeding with a caravan in tow!

[quote=lotaresco;79527]Why do you want to avoid me?[/quote]

If I'm travelling at 130Km/h on the middle lane and I want to pull-out to overtake someone doing 120, I don't want to be blocked, or rear-ended by anyone travelling faster than the speed limit.

Selfish, I am.

[quote=Marc;79546]If I'm travelling at 130Km/h on the middle lane and I want to pull-out to overtake someone doing 120, I don't want to be blocked, or rear-ended by anyone travelling faster than the speed limit.

Selfish, I am.[/quote]

The Highway Code Rule 267 has some excellent advice for you:

Do not overtake unless you are sure it is safe and legal to do so. Overtake only on the right [Left in Italy, obviously]. You should

* check your mirrors
* take time to judge the speeds correctly
* make sure that the lane you will be joining is sufficiently clear ahead and behind
* take a quick sideways glance into the blind spot area to verify the position of a vehicle that may have disappeared from your view in the mirror
* remember that traffic may be coming up behind you very quickly. Check all your mirrors carefully. Look out for motorcyclists. When it is safe to do so, signal in plenty of time, then move out
* ensure you do not cut in on the vehicle you have overtaken
* be especially careful at night and in poor visibility when it is harder to judge speed and distance

So if you're driving appropriately for the conditions, how could you be either "blocked" (whatever you mean by that) or rear ended? And what makes you think that if I see a driver of the type you describe (doesn't check mirrors, pulls out without looking, unable to observe ahead hence getting themselves into a road position they are uncomfortable with) that I would be driving at high speed?

I you look down at the floor of your car there will be at least two pedals. The one on the right makes the car go faster and can also make it go slower. The one to the left of that should never need to be used on the motorway/autostrada. If you do need to use it, other than at toll booths, then you are not making proper observation and you are getting too close to other vehicles ahead.

Despite driving several thousand miles a year I rarely use the brake on the road. And I never tailgate or harass other road users. If it's unsafe to pull out to overtake, I will not pull out. When I do pull out I make proper observation and sufficient indication that other road users know my intention. I never exceed a safe speed or the conditions, and that can often mean driving far slower than the speed limit.

However since I lived in German and was trained to drive at high speed on unrestricted roads, I see no problem in traveling at high speed where conditions and vehicle permit and particularly when I return to Germany.

Are you quoting UK Highway Code or the Italian one? Are they the same?

We had a friend who wanted to turn left a country road, he slowed, indicated, checked there was nothing coming in the other direction and turned. To be hit by someone coming behind him who decided to overtake him as he was turning. Then he was told it was his fault (by his insurance company)! That he should have checked for traffic behind him, pulled into the side of the road and waited for all traffic behind him to pass before he made the turn.

[quote=Marc;79546]If I'm travelling at 130Km/h on the middle lane and I want to pull-out to overtake someone doing 120, I don't want to be blocked, or rear-ended by anyone travelling faster than the speed limit.

Selfish, I am.[/quote]
Oh, come now, Marc! Surely you've realised by now that drivers doing 200kph+ on the Autostrada have a [I]right[/I] to unobstructed access to the overtaking lane at all times? :veryconfused:
[quote=lotaresco;79548]The Highway Code Rule 267 has some excellent advice for you:...[/quote]
Doesn't the Highway Code also mention something about complying with posted speed limits? :eerr:

Rhetorical question, since I'm aware that there are lots of British drivers who consider themselves so "highly skilled" that they believe they should be exempt from speed limits. I'm sure their Italian cousins - and I'm thinking particularly of those usually seen driving in the rain at 200kph three metres from the car ahead - labour under the same delusion.

Al

I hope this does not turn into a holier than thou thread....

cause if it does, many more accidents occur at 70kph and below than occur above.

So leave the high horses at home.....

Yes, but thats only because by far many more people drive at 70 and [B]below[/B] than drive at 70 and [B]above[/B].

[quote=mungo;79607]Yes, but thats only because by far many more people drive at 70 and [B]below[/B] than drive at 70 and [B]above[/B].[/quote]
Much more concentration need at 200kph+ so you are normally more alert all the time and predict road conditions better. At 70kph then you tend to go into a semi comatose state.... no adrenalin has to work as there is no need for it.

[quote=mungo;79607]Yes, but thats only because by far many more people drive at 70 and [B]below[/B] than drive at 70 and [B]above[/B].[/quote]

I did say 70 kph, not 70 mph. Yet the fact remains, you are assuming what you say is actual facts, rather than an opinion.

I believe the stats [which i myself do not hold in high regard] would beg to differ with your opinion.

Do i have to remind anyone that motorways are indeed the safest roads in use, and the fastest.....

[quote=giovanni;79606]I hope this does not turn into a holier than thou thread....[/quote]
Yes, it can rapidly get annoying if people start bragging about how their driving skills are so superior to everyone else's, can't it? :eeeek:

[quote=giovanni;79606]I did say 70 kph, not 70 mph. Yet the fact remains, you are assuming what you say is actual facts, rather than an opinion.

I believe the stats [which i myself do not hold in high regard] would beg to differ with your opinion.[/quote]
Since you're certain that you are citing fact, rather than just stating [I]your[/I] opinion, I'd be interested to see those statistics. Maybe you have a link handy?

You dispute Mungo's assertion that the reason there are fewer accidents at higher speeds is because most miles/km travelled are not on motorways. Seems to me that we therefore need to compare like with like.

So if we consider only accidents on motorways, can you cite studies which show that the faster a car is travelling, the less likely there will be a collision and the less serious the consequences will be if one should happen? Given the facts of Newtonian physics and the limitions of the human nervous system, that seems counter-intuitive to me.

...But then intuition is sometimes completely wrong.

Al

That's why I didnt state kph or mph because it doesn't make any difference Gio. There must be still far more people driving at speeds under 70 kph (or mph) than there are driving over 70 kph (or mph). I say this only because it really annoys me when some low rider on two wheels gives me the finger as he cruises past my zimmer frame on a Triumph III or something that Indian Larry polished up from stock.

My days of bombing down motorways in fancy German or Italian metal far in excess of the speed limit are long gone now I am a "responsible" adult and drive a horse and cart. :laughs:

[quote=mungo;79630]My days of bombing down motorways in fancy German or Italian metal far in excess of the speed limit are long gone now I am a "responsible" adult and drive a horse and cart. :laughs:[/quote]

You wou.dn't be a responsible adult if you drove a horse and cart on the motorway. Or even if you drove a car at the same speed as a horse and cart on the motorway. In the UK recently a driver was arrested and charged with dangerous driving or driving at 10-15mph on the M5 near Bristol. She has been found guilty, is awaiting sentence and has been told that a ban is inevitable.

I know that a large number of Brits believe that the slower one drives, the saer that theuy become, but this is nonsense and a driver has a much greater responsibility than simply watching their speedometer.

[quote=AllanMason;79585]Oh, come now, Marc! Surely you've realised by now that drivers doing 200kph+ on the Autostrada have a [I]right[/I] to unobstructed access to the overtaking lane at all times? :veryconfused:[/quote]

No, but all drivers on the motorway/autostrada have a duty to make proper observation at all times. And should be particularly careful before performing a manoeuver that may obstruct, impeded or hinder the progress of another vehicle.

[quote=AllanMason;79585]Doesn't the Highway Code also mention something about complying with posted speed limits? :eerr:
[/quote]

Indeed it does, but it doesn't say that obeying the speed limit absolves the driver of responsibility for obeying the rest of the Highway Code. There are three rules in the Highway Code relating to speed, and 304 relating to other issues.

[quote=AllanMason;79626]Yes, it can rapidly get annoying if people start bragging about how their driving skills are so superior to everyone else's, can't it? :eeeek:

Since you're certain that you are citing fact, rather than just stating [I]your[/I] opinion, I'd be interested to see those statistics. Maybe you have a link handy?

You dispute Mungo's assertion that the reason there are fewer accidents at higher speeds is because most miles/km travelled are not on motorways. Seems to me that we therefore need to compare like with like.

So if we consider only accidents on motorways, can you cite studies which show that the faster a car is travelling, the less likely there will be a collision and the less serious the consequences will be if one should happen? Given the facts of Newtonian physics and the limitions of the human nervous system, that seems counter-intuitive to me.

...But then intuition is sometimes completely wrong.

Al[/quote]

Firstly merely stated stats that are thrown out every now and then by insurance assesors and police stats ect.

Now clearly you are now confusing speed with plain old "bad drivers",worst still you now make the mistake of assuming because 20,000 mothers with children drive 1 mile to their nearest school everyday,that their combined mileage comes anywhere near to that of the regular m/way user doing 100 times their mileage!
So therefore it is you who are not comparing like with like,as mile per mile,m/ways are safer than A,B,C type roads

And further more please do not try to confuse issues by siting newtons physics,and consequences of collision to somehow back up what is afterall only an opinion, as you asked for me to provide facts,which if you had any at hand yourself you would have clearly posted.

never the less the fact remains i site reputed stats, i also mentioned what i thought of these states anyway,and of course speed kills, but then speed is not a figure above or below a speedlimit,it is a discribtion of an action,therefore 10 mph is speed as is 100 mph.

"Speeding" this too has no definitive numbers attached to it, it is merely a discribtion much along the lines of "what a gay day"

Of course on m/ways when incidents do happen,they do indeed happen in a major way, but in any one day the A and B roads will see numerous accidents of all types minor to major.

What is clear though is the high horses have come out!

Quite amazing really, do you see anywhere in any of my post where i have advocated "speeding" to be something i support? No, just others assumptions that to actually state a veiwpiont based on and supported by insurance and police assesers,is to assume i'm on the other side of the fence!

just to chuck alittle petrol on the fire [url=http://www.safespeed.org.uk/]Welcome to Safe Speed[/url] told you i distrust stats

[quote=lotaresco;79633]You wou.dn't be a responsible adult if you drove a horse and cart on the motorway. Or even if you drove a car at the same speed as a horse and cart on the motorway. In the UK recently a driver was arrested and charged with dangerous driving or driving at 10-15mph on the M5 near Bristol. She has been found guilty, is awaiting sentence and has been told that a ban is inevitable.[/quote]

I think a ban is inevitable no matter what - especially if I ever do drive a horse and cart down some roads as it wont be to collect any old scrap. I'm very particular about my scrap.

Not so sure about high horses, but I'd love to add a a prancing one to the stable, alongside the Yuletide donkey. :winki:

[quote=AllanMason;79626]Yes, it can rapidly get annoying if people start bragging about how their driving skills are so superior to everyone else's, can't it? :eeeek:[/quote]

Has anyone done that? I see no evidence of such claims in this thread.

[quote=AllanMason;79626]Since you're certain that you are citing fact, rather than just stating [I]your[/I] opinion, I'd be interested to see those statistics. Maybe you have a link handy?[/quote]

I certainly have many handy, however I also suspect that those who believe that anyone who exceeds a speed limit is a psychopathic killer won't like the results. Firstly with respect to motorway speed limits, the data shows that the country with the highest motorway speed limit (Germany) has a death rate which is lower than that in Belgium, Finland, France, Italy, Austria, Portugal and Spain, which all have lower limits.

[url]http://www.abd.org.uk/images/mway_sl1.gif[/url]

The data in Road Casualties Great Britain 2005 (the latest publication) shows that 176 people were killed on the motorways, 1714 on rural roads with a speed limit of 60mph and 1023 on urban roads with a 30mph (50kph) speed limit.

The report also shows that "Failed to look properly was the most frequently reported contributory factor and was involved in 32 per cent of all accidents. Five of the six most frequently reported contributory factors were some kind of driver or rider error or reaction."

Exceeding the speed limit accounted for fewer than 4% of all accidents.

[quote=AllanMason;79626]You dispute Mungo's assertion that the reason there are fewer accidents at higher speeds is because most miles/km travelled are not on motorways.[/quote]

Unfortunately Mungo's assertion is no longer correct. Motorways accounted for 99.2 billion vehicle kilometers in 2006, urban 30mph limit roads accounted for 82.2 billion vehicle km.

[quote=AllanMason;79626] Seems to me that we therefore need to compare like with like.

So if we consider only accidents on motorways, can you cite studies which show that the faster a car is travelling, the less likely there will be a collision and the less serious the consequences will be if one should happen? Given the facts of Newtonian physics and the limitions of the human nervous system, that seems counter-intuitive to me.

...But then intuition is sometimes completely wrong.l[/quote]

RAGB shows that of the 176 deaths occurring on motorways approximately 40 were attributed to driving "too fast for the conditions" which does not mean "driving faster than the speed limit" it means that the drivers were, even when driving within the speed limit, driving too fast for their limits of visibility and ability to control the car. This category replaces the old "driving faster than the speed limit" category which showed fewer than 4% of accidents were caused by driving faster than the speed limit.

That means that 136 deaths, about three times as many were due to drivers who failed to make proper observation or were in some other way not paying appropriate care and attention to their driving.

As you say sometimes intuition is completely wrong, speed isn't the major killer on the roads, far from it. The major killer is inattentive drivers.

Just a small point chaps ,but is it not illegal to drive above the speed limit , something that I cannot see highlighted here.

[quote=giovanni;79636]just to chuck alittle petrol on the fire [url=http://www.safespeed.org.uk/]Welcome to Safe Speed[/url] told you i distrust stats[/quote]

I knew Paul Smith, the founder of Safespeed and corresponded with him on the interpretation of accident and injury statistics. Mostly he took the common sense view that drivers shoudl take more responsibility for improving their driving skills, and that merely obeying a number on a stick does not guarantee road safety. I think he's been vindicated by events and even the most vociferous "speed kills" campaigners were forced to retract many of their statements and to admit that Smith's analysis of the data relating to speed and accidents was correct and that they had made serious errors when they claimed that introducing speed cameras saved lives.

Accidents appear to have actually risen at speed camera sites, and presumably this is because of the panic braking that occurs as unobservant drivers slam on their brakes at the last minute. It's certainly behaviour I see day after day, because most drivers seem to be unaware of the speed limit on the road and brake to a speed that is usually 10-20mph lower than the actual speed limit.

It's also worth noting that Paul died recently. Not in a motor accident but at home, from a heart attack. One of the things that has upset me is that his opponents on hearing of his death actually celebrated and then issued liong statements of personal vilification against Paul, knowing that because he is dead they can no longer be sued for libel.

I found that shocking and I still can't see why people thought it permissible to vilify the recently deceased.

[quote=Angie and Robert;79643]Just a small point chaps ,but is it not illegal to drive above the speed limit , something that I cannot see highlighted here.[/quote]

It is, it's also illegal to do many other things that people do on a daily basis. It is for example illegal to drive while talking on a mobile phone, to drive without paying due care and attention, to fail to stop at a stop sign, to fail to give way at a give way sign, to stop on the motorway other than in an emergency (the list is endless).

I've encountered many people who have raised the fact that breaking the speed limit is illegal in the past. I've observed some of those people driving on the way to the meeting where they made the point. Every one of them driving in excess of the speed limit, usually at about 40mph in 30mph limits. Most of them comiiting some other illegal act of which talking on the phone while driving, driving an unroadworthy vehicle, and failing to obey STOP signs were the most common failures.

I'm not for one moment suggesting that you have ever driven other than 100% within the law at all times. But your argument is one that is used often by people who take umbrage at other's failures while being blind to their own. In my opinion its a rather impoverished argument at best, and fails unless the person arguing can demonstrate that they have never broken any traffic law themselves.

[quote=Angie and Robert;79643]Just a small point chaps ,but is it not illegal to drive above the speed limit , something that I cannot see highlighted here.[/quote]

Its also against the law to drive without due care, which stats wise is a far worse crime, but i do not see you highlighting that.:bigergrin:

Impoverished or not, it is not an argument it is a fact. Speed does kill, and whilst many things illegal can be fun when they dont harm anyone else, this does. You may think you are safe but you are not responsible and are a potential danger to other road uses, dont kid yourself that because you are a brilliant driver you are OK, it is a selfish and reckless attitude, which might get you ,or a harmless driver abiding by the rules injured or worse.
And on that note
A happy New Year to all
Drive carefully.
A

[quote=Angie and Robert;79648]Impoverished or not, it is not an argument it is a fact. Speed does kill, and whilst many things illegal can be fun when they dont harm anyone else, this does. You may think you are safe but you are not responsible and are a potential danger to other road uses, dont kid yourself that because you are a brilliant driver you are OK, it is a selfish and reckless attitude, which might get you ,or a harmless driver abiding by the rules injured or worse.[/quote]

I'm sorry but I disagree with the majority of what you have said. Firstly the statistics prove, not suggest but prove, that the line "Speed Kills" is incorrect. I know it is repeated as a mantra by many, but there's no evidence to support the claim. As I published earlier, fewer than 4% of road fatalities are caused by speeding, the vast majority are caused by people failing to make proper observation.

To say that I am not responsible is not warranted and I suggest that it is a personal attack that should not have been made. I am an extremely responsible driver and I moderate my speed to match the conditions. Often this means driving much slower than the posted speed limit, and I hasten to add slower than a number of drivers who seem to think that as long as they stick to the speed limit they are "safe".

I don't kid myself that I am a brilliant driver, have said nothing to that effect and have never suffered from that delusion.

And the last comment also seems to me to be bordering on personal attack and is unwarranted.

There's more to good driving than obeying one rule, and road safety cannot be condensed to "speed kills". If you refer to the previous chart you will see that the US that has the lowest speed limits has an accident rate worse than Germany which has the highest speed limit.

[quote=Torchiarolan;79659][B]Q.[/B] What goes ... Clip-Clop, Clip-Clop, Clip-Clop ?[/quote]

Tssk, meanwhile since the point has been made that driving at 240km/h on a public road is inherently unsafe, what would happen if a driver were to drive at 312 km/h (194 mph) on a public road and encountered another driver in a slow vehicle?

[url=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b12_1198955030]LiveLeak.com - BMW M6 - 194 mph on the autobahn[/url]

As we can see from that clip, absolutely nothing.

[quote=lotaresco;79664]Tssk, meanwhile since the point has been made that driving at 240km/h on a public road is inherently unsafe, what would happen if a driver were to drive at 312 km/h (194 mph) on a public road and encountered another driver in a slow vehicle?

[url=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b12_1198955030]LiveLeak.com - BMW M6 - 194 mph on the autobahn[/url]

As we can see from that clip, absolutely nothing.[/quote]

nice video, and yes i have edited this post because i have no issues with speed,but never the less feel that bloke was a pratt.

If you watch the video again you will see that he wasted a good 2 seconds of time trying to get an extra few mph out of the bm, when it was clear to see through the windscreen of his car,there was a car blocking his path.

had that car been forced to do an emergency stop, then the bm would have smashed into the back of it.
In my mind that is bad driving as the pratt hasn't acted quickly enough nor anticipated possible problems ahead.

[quote=giovanni;79669]nice video, "slow vehicle"? no, just a slower vehicle,[/quote]

It's all relative. That Einstein said so.

[quote=giovanni;79669]and given that the buggati, with its carbon discs and rear airbrake stops faster than anyother roadcar out there and at 200 mph takes 5 full length football pitches to do so,[/quote]

Point of order it's more like four football pitches, and that is the distance for braking to a standstill. It means that i the driver were lookign ahead by our marker posts he'd be driving safely. Indeed more safely than the average driver who drives less than 5 metres from the car in front at motorway speeds.

[quote=giovanni;79669]and that car was not a buggati,then i'd have to say the bloke was a bit of a pratt,what with all those vehicles around.........[/quote]

Possibly, although I've seen more out of control drivers at much lower speeds. There's a person I work with and I refuse to sit in his car because he's a danger to himself and everyone else at a speed of 50mph. I don't think I've encountered a less attentive and more aggressive driver. I wish the police would take time to remove drivers like that from the road.

Setting it in context I've never hurt anyone on the road, my colleague has killed one person and seriously injured at least five others. Yet he's still allowed a driving licence and his driving is still appalling. I don't think he's ever exceeded the speed limit either.

[quote=lotaresco;79670]It's all relative. That Einstein said so.

Point of order it's more like four football pitches, and that is the distance for braking to a standstill. It means that i the driver were lookign ahead by our marker posts he'd be driving safely. Indeed more safely than the average driver who drives less than 5 metres from the car in front at motorway speeds.

Possibly, although I've seen more out of control drivers at much lower speeds. There's a person I work with and I refuse to sit in his car because he's a danger to himself and everyone else at a speed of 50mph. I don't think I've encountered a less attentive and more aggressive driver. I wish the police would take time to remove drivers like that from the road.

Setting it in context I've never hurt anyone on the road, my colleague has killed one person and seriously injured at least five others. Yet he's still allowed a driving licence and his driving is still appalling. I don't think he's ever exceeded the speed limit either.[/quote]

You are far too quick.:smile: I deleted most of that post straight away and then mentioned my reason why i thought he was driving like a prat.....It had nothing to do with speed, more a case of not reading the road conditions and acting immediately.

No it is not a personal attack at all it is an obsevation of mine on everyone who has posted who has said they like driving really really fast. I dont agree, you dont agree with me. I think you guys are wrong, but there was nothing in my observation that should have upset you to such a degree,, hey you did say my argument was impoverished!!!.

So now what I am interested in is what make of cars are you all whizzing around in to achieve such speeds?.
Toot toot
A

[quote=Angie and Robert;79680]...................So now what I am interested in is what make of cars are you all whizzing around in to achieve such speeds?..............[/quote]

Also - how do we get Tutor fitted everywhere?, as it obviously keeps some fast drivers away.

.

[quote=lotaresco;79651]As I published earlier, fewer than 4% of road fatalities are caused by speeding, the vast majority are caused by people failing to make proper observation.[/quote]
I have no difficulty accepting that assertion. I do have problems when it's suggested that it logically follows that speed limits are unnecessary.

What are the figures for the number of road fatalities or collisions in the UK caused by mechanical failures? I suspect the numbers are tiny. Does it follow that annual vehicle inspections are a waste of time? I'm sure that some believe so, but I can't accept that.

Responsible drivers (by definition) make sure their car is mechanically safe and road-worthy at all times, not just when the MOT is coming due. But I'm sure we've all known people who knew their car needed new tyres or some other work but put it off because of other pressures on their time and finances, only getting around to doing it because they knew they would soon be without a car if it didn't pass the MOT. (And, yes, I know there are people around who drive cars that are death machines on wheels with forged MOT certificates in the glove box and a stolen tax disk on the windscreen. I do appreciate that the MOT system, just like posted speed limits, can do little to curb the behaviour of sociopaths and total idiots.)

I'm perfectly willing to accept that lotaresco, giovanni and others here may be highly-experienced, ever-attentive and ultra-sensible drivers who could be relied upon to always read the road conditions accurately and set their speed accordingly. Unfortunately, I know that I'm not so infallible. I also know there are many who drive while emotionally agitated or while preoccupied by work or family problems. Also on the road are adrenaline-junkies and drivers who, because of inexperience or just being plain thick, are completely incapable of making a sensible decision about a reasonable speed for a particular car in particular conditions on a particular road.

It seems to me that, just as the MOT is a blunt tool to try to make sure that most cars on the road are mechanically sound most of the time, so all that posted speed limits do is try to make sure the carnage caused by bad drivers is somewhat limited. It's unfortunate that this means that all those excellent drivers out there who could safely drive much faster than the rest of us are delayed in reaching their destinations, but I guess that's just another of the prices we have to pay for living with other people.

Speed-limit free German autobahns are often mentioned by those who think speed-limits are an unacceptable restraint on their personal liberties. I recently made several trips through Germany after not having visited for nearly a decade. Three things struck me:

First, I was surprised by how often one [I]does[/I] encounter speed limits on autobahns. Popular belief outside Germany is that all German motorways are a free-for-all in terms of speed, but it just ain't so. What's more, German drivers are meticulous about complying with the posted limits.

Second, after getting used to autostrade, I was struck by how well-designed the curves are on autobahns and how the lines of sight are very open. Perhaps they were working within non-obvious constraints, but I have often wondered if autostrade planners drew a few extra curves on their blueprints just because they thought that would make the road more [I]interesting[/I] to drive. As for the two-metre high guardrails that one sees on most of the autostrade network, well, they would definitely prevent HGVs careening across into oncoming traffic, but they also often make it seem like you're driving though an open-topped tunnel.

The other thing that struck me (particularly so after getting used to Italian driving habits) was how fastidious German drivers are at keeping to the right lane. One very quickly realises that German drivers are (as a rule) very sensitive to driving conditions and constantly aware of the location of cars around them.

Perhaps this is due to Germans having had around 80 years of experience with motorway driving. Perhaps it's a reflection of the German character (if such exists) or German culture. Or perhaps it's just due to driver training being much better than elsewhere.

Whatever the case, I remain convinced that the consequences of eliminating speed limits (or - to divert the thread briefly back on topic - shutting down the Tutor system) on Italian motorways tomorrow would not be pretty.

Finally, you mention a colleague whose driving is literally lethal, lotaresco. While you say that you never ride in a car with him, you also believe he's never exceeded the speed limit. Would you really be happy knowing you might encounter him on the motorway driving even faster than he does now?

It seems to me that some people take speed limits as a personal insult; an allegation that they're incapable of safely driving any faster. I see them as a way of making driving a little less stressful by imposing a slight constraint on people like lotaresco's friend.

Al

[quote=lotaresco;79481]
I must say that so far that despite having hit speeds of 240km/h on the autostrade I haven't had a knock on the door or a letter from anyone. BTW, if anyone knows the lat/long of Autovelox and Tutor positions I would be very interested, because I'm helping to compile a GPS database of positions.[/quote]

240 km/h .... if that is true and not some bravissimo ......lets hope you get caught very soon and banned so the rest of us can enjoy driving safely.....

Having broken the speed limit once. I swear only once. I'll say I'm a safer driver at a higher speed then a forced lower speed. Reality is with low speed limits I can nap and still keep going the right way. :SLEEP: The faster I go the more attention I need to pay to just stay alive.

OTOH any slight problem at speed requires more effort to avoid becoming a red stain. :eerr:

I also believe the other guy on the road is nuts and that helps keep me attentive to all their issues. :wideeyed::wideeyed:

When speed limits are set by engineers for safety reasons I have no problem doing the speed limit or less. When they are set low for other reasons is when I run into problems.

Let the highway engineers set the limits then enforce the hell out of them. I'll manage fine.

There was a study done on German free limit autobahns a few years ago and it found that the vast majority of drivers (I cant remember exactly, but it was something like 95% +) settled down to driving at a speed of...... 74 mph!

[quote=Angie and Robert;79680]No it is not a personal attack at all it is an obsevation of mine on everyone who has posted who has said they like driving really really fast. I dont agree, you dont agree with me. I think you guys are wrong, but there was nothing in my observation that should have upset you to such a degree,, hey you did say my argument was impoverished!!!.

So now what I am interested in is what make of cars are you all whizzing around in to achieve such speeds?.
Toot toot
A[/quote]

I'm sorry but once again I must disagree you made your comment personal to me "you are not responsible". Whereas I took pains to point out that I accept that your driving is lawless and I place no blame upon you, merely indicating that your argument is impoverished. If you prefer "simplistic" then let it be that.

I don't have that car anymore but when I did it was a supercharged Jaguar.

[quote=alan haynes;79686]Also - how do we get Tutor fitted everywhere?, as it obviously keeps some fast drivers away..[/quote]

The society that you are proposing, with Big Brother watching every move isn't one I would like to live in.

[quote=arty;79689]240 km/h .... if that is true and not some bravissimo ......lets hope you get caught very soon and banned so the rest of us can enjoy driving safely.....[/quote]

Umm hmm, and how many accidents have you been involved in?