3478 Purchasing abroad

Great post, and I quite agree. We bought from an agent in 2001 in Marche and had no real problems. However we were well informed as to the process and did a fair bit of research, plus my brother was living in Italy.

I tell many of our guests that have come to buy, that there are no bad agents, the one with the house you want is the right one. You just have to apply the same principles as when you are buying in the UK, plus ask relevant questions - how many owners, rights of way and access, any debts on the property and of course what is involved in restoring, and this is the time to get impartial advice from an architect or surveyor. If you don't speak the language, then its a good idea to use a translator. People like Charles are obviously a great asset as are other English in the locality.

We would definitely do it all again, and have found our Italian tradesmen to be really good value and great to work with. Like most things people always complain about the bad things, and sometimes forget to mention the good. The warmth of the Italians is amazing and their patience when listening to us attempting to learn their beautiful language.

We have loads of great stories that we've now started to add to our website, maybe the forum could have a special section for this.

Sorry,going to be negative. We did ask many many of the right questions to an English middle woman and were given a load of rubbish for answers. The are bad agents, well at least I could say lack knowledge. So it really isn't all that easy at all, if you fall into the wrong hands. You can do as much research as you like but it is not possible to know everything so therefore you rely on the person who is meant to be helping you.

This is an interesting thread & I'm not sure which category we fall into.

Our search covered a wide number of agents in a broad swathe of Italy; I feel that this gave us a good indication of what was on offer & what to look for. We found that our main constraint was budget & were pleased that we had a good handle on our finances & managed to stick to them; we could have been tempted by mortgages etc.. but our aim was to buy for cash & not over stretch ourselves. I seem to recall a conversation that went "If the whole place falls down tomorrow, I don't want to lose our place in the UK".

We purchased from an agent of EPN, (I believe that they are now IPN) & had our work done by builders comissioned via that agent. When we bought the house already had plans for restoration approved (we met the Geometra), we met the builder & saw some of his other work & did all the things I thikn we needed to do. I have to confess thought that at no point did we look for alternative quotes, seek independant legal advice or independant translators........so that's rules #1, 2 & 3 broken!

Oh, we also broke rule 4 by not having a survey; we gambled on the belief that it's a stone house that's been there for n hundred years & looks OK.

We found that apart from a few financial wrangles (minimum commission was not specified) and the odd problem on the build (the replacement roof had chopped off the chimney & there were no plans to replace it!) we came out the other side with a delightful house that still fills us with joy to think about; it's a delightful place to run away to!

Anyway, part way though our saga we discovered that the agent had gone freelance & split from EPN; we maintined our relationship as we'd been happy with the work...we even started to work in collaboration with them. After a point we decided that this was not the best option & with too many rumours abounding we felt it was time to go alone.

I'm not too sure whether it was by luck or judgement that we progressed, but belive that it was a combination of both, as well as by the goodwill & advice from a number of friends we met along the way.....maybe it was also a fairly well honed bulls**t detectors too!

The whole process of purchasing, renovating, renting etc... taught us much, if not caution. It also gave us an unshakable belief that there are many excellent local craftsmen & professionals.

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]Sorry but I could'nt disagree more .

When I joined this forum I was totally ignorant yet that didnt put me off putting in an offer on a 'cheap' house in Abruzzo.It makes my hair stand on end now thinking about all the things I didn't do or check...for example both times we saw the place the trees were in full leaf. In February armed with the plans I saw one of our plots is on so steep a slope it looks like it may be a risk...for the whole property.I've had a geologist look at at and he says its ok but I still we are worried and wait to see in June what the full extent of the problem may be.

I'm sorry but being on this forum for 6 months I've seen just how many people have come unstuck buying in Italy.Its simply not fair on future buyers to paint too rosy a picture.PLUS your comments on a laywer are fine but many people like us are not very well off and are just buying a little trullo/rustico to restore.We cannot get involved in years of litigation,which could be avoided if we went in with our eyes open and didn't believe everything we were told by the agents!

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

[COLOR=black]Martin, just to reassure you that in fact posts are not all negative, even though people like manopello, us and others point out what can or has gone wrong, the underlying vibe is that we still feel positive about the outcome because we are happy with our properties and ultimately that is what matters. It is better to help people than to pretend that it is all so easy. [/COLOR]

If reading a post about somebodies problems makes us more careful of what could happen then great, and come on, it is always fun reading about some one else's problems, thinking what a complete and utter idiot......just before we do some thing so blindingly stupid, we have not got the guts to post them:(

This morning was I reading the thread on planning permission thinking 's...t. something else I had not thought about'. What is the most important thing to know before buying a house here? It must be information. In a country where you can ask 10 different people the same question and get 11 different answers, correct information(or even 2 bits that are nearly the same) is like gold.

[quote=manopello][FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3]many people like us are not very well off and are just buying a little trullo/rustico to restore.We cannot get involved in years of litigation,which could be avoided if we went in with our eyes open and didn't believe everything we were told by the agents![/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3]Becky[/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

I'm sorry but if you can afford a little trullo/rustico you can afford a lawyer and part of the purpose of having a lawyer is to avoid the years of litigation. I maybe am being a bit simplistic here and I don't want to turn this in to another lawyer thread but to me it is simple. When I'm buying a house in the UK I wouldn't believe everything the agent told me and I'd make sure I had a lawyer - why would I do any differently when buying a property in a foreign country with it's own systems and language?

I agree with Martin, the process and certainly the end result can be amazingly positive..if you've got the right precautions in place at the start.

[QUOTE=brendangfc]I'm sorry but if you can afford a little trullo/rustico you can afford a lawyer and part of the purpose of having a lawyer is to avoid the years of litigation. I maybe am being a bit simplistic here and I don't want to turn this in to another lawyer thread but to me it is simple. When I'm buying a house in the UK I wouldn't believe everything the agent told me and I'd make sure I had a lawyer - why would I do any differently when buying a property in a foreign country with it's own systems and language?

I agree with Martin, the process and certainly the end result can be amazingly positive..if you've got the right precautions in place at the start.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Brendan, my point exactly. I can see that some members have slightly missed my point.

TrulloMartinaFranca, I am sorry you experienced problems but had you instructed a reputable lawyer you would not have the negative story you have now.

If people are not intructing lawyers I sincerely hope it is not for the sake of saving a couple of thousand euros which could save themselves from heartache!!

Martin,

That's not quite true. There are plenty of people who have instructed "reputable lawyers" and it was the reputable lawyers who caused the negative outcome!

:) :)

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]I've said this before and I know I'm reapeting myself but every time I go out to Abruzzo I speak to buyers on the plane who haven't used a lawyer.They've been told that they dont need one and have decided that if the house cost them £30,000 they won't bother!

I've put my hand up and said that I was very foolish.I would try to advise everyone to get independant legal advice BUT I think many many problems could be resolved easily and less expensively if buyers had the right information.This is where this and the expats forum are so brilliant.

Yes use a lawyer but also do your homework.Dont just leave it all to them.

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

Couldn't agree more Becky- We were complete novices at buying abroad and didn't use a lawyer. HOWEVER we did our homework and spent a good six months checking out agents websites, reading magazines like Italy Magazine and looking at forums like this one.

In hind site we were very lucky but we did not go out blind and whilst things could have gone horribly wrong we tried to keep a level head and get as much information beforehand as possible.

If you are on a buying trip don't get carried away. Come home, think about the area and the house and then go again perhaps with a sane friend or relative before putting your offer - yes OFFER (don't be hoodwinked in to going straight in at asking price)- forward.

As always - buyer beware

Jackie

[quote=martin ware]Thanks Brendan, my point exactly. I can see that some members have slightly missed my point.

TrulloMartinaFranca, I am sorry you experienced problems but had you instructed a reputable lawyer you would not have the negative story you have now.

If people are not intructing lawyers I sincerely hope it is not for the sake of saving a couple of thousand euros which could save themselves from heartache!![/quote]
[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]Hi Martin, Yes we messed up at the start but mainly because we believed the research we had read about using a notary only, not because we were saving a few pounds. We did actually ask the agent about a lawyer from the beginning but realised maybe not a good idea to use their recommendation. It was tricky finding one but we did and all is ok now. The thing is for many who buy in [/COLOR][COLOR=black]Italy[/COLOR][COLOR=black] little is understood about the whole process, even with research. There are different laws and rights that need to be looked into BEFORE signing anything. Even some who have used lawyers have still picked up issues that hadn't been by the lawyer and also issues not picked up by the notary. What you have to think about is, just because there are negative stories about purchase gone wrong does not mean it's a bad thing, it's good, forewarned forearmed. I wish we had found this forum before not after we had signed the proposal. Surely it's positive for others to learn from our mistake and not be so humble to think everyone is soooo clever to get it right first time. ;) :) [/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]

I agree that it is not always necessary to appoint a solicitor, but since there is no such thing as a standard purchase, it is foolish to make generalisations or to infer that just because another party’s transaction was successful, yours will be too.

Italians operate in a different environment to one we are accustomed to in England and although some of the formalities may appear to be similar, the legal system in Italy is different and so it pays to be prudent at all times. If you are uncertain about your legal position then it is better to seek proper, professional advice right at the beginning. It is true that legislation in Italy, albeit prolific, offers the same protection to overseas buyers as it does to Italians, but the majority of problems arise when buyers neither speak the language nor understand the culture. More importantly, they arise when people throw caution out of the window and make false assumptions about their rights and obligations. Remember, if something were to go pear shaped, you cannot plead ignorance in an Italian court of law.

Sometimes we tend to rely on pure intuition and instinct and many other subjective factors when embarking on a journey to buy a property overseas. Whilst there is nothing wrong with that approach, we have to remember that there is always an element of risk and uncertainty involved, especially when dealing with derelict rural properties that are in need of renovation for example.

As with any journey, preparation is the key and providing you take your time and don’t allow yourself to be rushed into making hasty decisions, the process should be no more difficult than buying a house in the UK. We can all do something about mitigating the risks, however, but uncertainty is not something we can measure. Anyone can get caught out if they are not too careful.

If a particular situation leaves you in doubt then don’t leave matters in the hands of just anyone, it is far better to obtain the opinion of an independent professional who is conversant with both legal systems. Unlike buying a property in France for example, where there is a cooling off period of seven days after receiving a signed copy of the Compromis de Vente, no such luxury exists in Italy.

I had an eye opening experience today - the sort of thing which a "first time buyer in Italy" rarely gets - because they rarely have a sufficient command of Italian. I was doing a compromesso in a notaio's office (the English buyers wished to run this past the notaio, ahead of the atto), and the discussion turned to buildings "in corso di costruzione": the very well respected costruttore was being instructed in his obligations by the notaio (had the permesso di costruire been issued post 2005, which was not in fact the case in this deal) - but the discussion was wide ranging and very educational. It seems to me that the recent changes in conveyancing practices (for new build, or buying "off plan" deals), have become ridiculously favourable to the buyer, and onerous on the constructor. The builder asked the notaio if he could see a completed atto relevant to his concerns - the notiao replied that none was available because no constructor had been willing to commit to the burdens imposed! So, it is looking to me as if the mutuo culture has finally reached Italy - and it is the moneylenders who feel the need for mega protection (and will put the prices of new build properties up, inevitably, and unpredictably until the "insurance culture" (basically the same people as the "moneylenders) have decided how much pain the purchaser will bear.)
All this stuff depresses me - it is why I left the UK 20 years ago for Italy - but now - who knows where I'll go, even Turkey seems to be embracing the "need a lawyer" philosophy. It is a long way from putting a value on your own estimation of another human being - which I sort of kind of hoped was what life was all about. Sorry - just wanted to sound off on this subject - any life decision should be considered, but should also be personal, and "from the gut": and if you made the wrong analysis, then you stand by your choice. At least that way it is down to you whether you win or lose, (and you haven't got the lawyer to bleat about).

So Charles basically agrees to obtain the services of an independent professional.

I do understand TrulloMartinaFranca's situation of being told not to worry and use only the notary. The reason for this as far as I have gathered is that Italian agents are paid their commission at "compromesso" and not at closure. Obviously they do not want to waste time or the possibility of negative results of the searches a lawyer would carry out.

From what I understand it is fundamental, as I have always done anywhere, to instruct a lawyer to ensure the safety of proceeding with a purchase before handing over any kind of deposit whatsoever.

Rule No.1: Never give into pressure sales!!

I don't think you are being quite fair to Italian agents. Certainly in the past they would take their "cut" at the compromesso stage, (as is the norm in the UK, where the sole requirement of an estate agent is to bring together buyer and seller): but increasingly "good practice" in Italy is for an estate agent to take the whole deal through to the final atto di compravendita.

I have a bit of experience with agents.
As in all the situations, there are some of them very competent and some not.
The most of them give a good pre and post contractual assistance 'till the atto pubblico, some of them leave the parties alone with their problems.
I think that you have to consider what is the agent's job.
It isn't their job to give legal or technical adivices: they have no specific preparation for this.
It does't mean that some of them aren't able to it, but it also means that some of them can [I]TRY [/I]to do it, without having any skill at all and causing, therefore, a lot of problems with wrong or confusing informations or advices.
I've often written that italians have "antybodies", having a general knowledge of the system and how to handle a purchase, knowing the person (generally the notary) to ask for help or assistence from the first steps of the purchase process.
Foreigners buyers are a special category and, as far as I'm seeing from this forum, there's a special category of agents "for foreigners" too.
These agents do not limit their job to bring together buyer and seller, but try to sell an "all inclusive" service: surveys, renovation projects, builders etc.
It isn't a bad thing at all.
If I bought a cottage in Devonshire, in a place far from home, whit people specking a language i do not understand, I'd prefear to have a "no problem" assistance from the first visit at the cottage untill the end of the renovation.
The point is the quality of the agent.
If all the agents were like Charles (higly competent, good knowledge of the italian system etc.) there would be no problems, but this forum has showed that thare are some (many ?) with "approximate" behaviours.

BTW how are the cottages in Devonshire ?

You'd love the cottages notaio but weather not so good much of the time!

You are right different situations will produce different outcomes and why people can not see that I do not understand. ;)

[quote=Relaxed]It seems to me that the recent changes in conveyancing practices (for new build, or buying "off plan" deals), have become ridiculously favourable to the buyer, and onerous on the constructor. [/quote]

Don't forget that one of the reasons why the new legislation was introduced last year stems from the fact that a number of people lost their money in the past when builders went bust.

For Notaio.

These are cottages in Devon. Different areas of Devon have specific styles and colours; in the south, they use a lot more thatch for the roofs than in the north of Devon, where they use slate more often, as it has more rainfall. They are very 'pretty' houses, but have just as many problems as any very old Italian house!
[CENTER]Mid Devon cottage South Devon cottage

[ATTACH]655[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]656[/ATTACH]
This is a traditional Devon Longhouse
[ATTACH]657[/ATTACH][/CENTER]

Enjoy!

:D :D

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]Yeah your biggest problem would be finding the dosh to buy one.In Salcombe a 1 up 1 down goes for £200,000!

Notaio I love your use of the word Devonshire.When I was a little girl All the counties seemed to be shires,even ones in Wales and Scotland but this practice has been dropped.Nowdays 'Chiantishire' is only remaining one! Apparently they're trying to get in on the act in Abruzzo by calling it 'Abruzzoshire' (honest read it in an Italian ezine).Dont think it will catch on.

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]