8581 copper guttering

[quote=edcro;80480]I have received a quote for copper guttering and down pipes for a renovation property. The material has been choosen by the project manager/geometra. The prices seem to be trebble that in the uk, which between £32 & £40 for a 2.4 metre section. Can anyone enlighten me as to why this should be. My calculations are generous and based on the size of the property Max £5/600. in UK. £1600 in Italy. All replies appreciated.[/quote]

Hi edcro
Copper piping is very expensive , a 2 mt down pipe 60E, thats wholesale without IVA, as you know it will tone down in colour in 6 to 8 weeks and end up looking like brown plastic pipe.....ask your guy to quote for plastic as well.....I sometimes think that managers and geometras like to spend our money because they cannot afford those type of finishing touches themselves ......

Hi, Ecro.
I disagree with D&R comments, but then... I am married to a (retired) architect... He says that yes, copper is expensive but it will last you some 200 years. Plastic only lasts about 4 to 5 years average depending on weather exposure. Hence, the difference in price.
Architect adds that if the guttering and downpipes are not easily reached from the ground (single storey house against 1-2 storeys), the replacement cost is very high... Consequently, go for copper.

[quote=Gala Placidia;80489]...copper is expensive but it will last you some 200 years.[/quote]
Unless, as has been reported here, someone comes along and nicks the stuff because it's so bloomin' expensive! :winki:

Al

[quote=deborahandricky;80483]Hi edcro
Copper piping is very expensive , a 2 mt down pipe 60E, thats wholesale without IVA, as you know it will tone down in colour in 6 to 8 weeks and end up looking like brown plastic pipe.....ask your guy to quote for plastic as well.....I sometimes think that managers and geometras like to spend our money because they cannot afford those type of finishing touches themselves ......[/quote]

Find out your comune rules - in rural areas our comune insist upon copper, plastic is not an option.

[quote=AllanMason;80502]Unless, as has been reported here, someone comes along and nicks the stuff because it's so bloomin' expensive! :winki:

Al[/quote]

You are right, this is happening. The only thing you can do to prevent it is to have great neighbours and a vicious guard dog. If this fails, make sure that your comprehensive home insurance policy is current....

Copper coloured alumniium comes in at about 16 euros per linear metre, made on site with a rolling machine... Thats Sicily prices so you will have to double that up north I should think.

Aluminium will last longer than plastic, between 10 and 15 years depending on quality and the possibility of alkaline attack. There are at least 10 different types of guttering available, including ceramic, Colourbond, fibro, glass, galvanised steel... but you have to check on council requirements and availability in your area. Also, look at what kind of guttering the neighbours have... usually it is the way to go.

I think you're paying too much the going rate today locally in Italy; naturally this depends on the diameter and the "svillupo" but standard sizes for down pipes so for 100mm ø you should be paying about £12/lm fitted. Guttering depends on the width, design so for a width (sv) 33cm €20/lm fitted.

Copper/aluminium/plastic/painted galvanized...??

As usual this is a quality and cost consideration...

Copper if fitted correctly and you can afford it. Copper is nearly maintenance free and you'll never need to refit it in your life time.

Aluminium somebody pointed out life about 16 years; sounds Ok but can you really standard the noise when it starts to expand and contract on cloudy sunny days I doubt it. What a noise...

Plastic.... yes ...natural product no!.... cheap-yes that about sums it up! Just a note the two biggest environmental polluters in the EU are plastic manufacturing companies. And don't believe all you read about UV resistant... crap.

Painted galvanized sheet metel is a good compromise; if you want cheaper than go for this but you will probably need to re do after about 10 years or there abouts.

I noted an earlier reply project manager and geometra mentioned in the same sentence. Geometras couldn't project manage their way out of a wet paper bag unless .... there is something for them. They (geometras) aneed to be regulated more as it is now they get money for old rope.... They need to be held with very firm reins.

Good luck!

[quote=lotan4850;80601]I noted an earlier reply project manager and geometra mentioned in the same sentence. Geometras couldn't project manage their way out of a wet paper bag unless .... there is something for them. They (geometras) aneed to be regulated more as it is now they get money for old rope.... They need to be held with very firm reins.[/quote]
I would hate for people to get the idea that, somehow, a Geometra is an optional extra here in Italy. Without a REAL, registered Geometra on your side, things will be very difficult for you - particularly at the local commune. You need a Geometra to get your DIA and you MUST have a Geometra as a project manager (even if they don't actually do anything) on your DIA displayed on the outside of your house before you actually start any work. All of the Geometre I have met have actually been very nice, educated and well-informed people. remember, they have to be both qualified and approved before they can call themselves a Geometra. Because of this, you can easily lodge a complaint against one should they fail to "perform" to your reasonable satisfaction.

Dear Nardini,

My opinions here must be tempered with local conditions that vary greatly throughout Italy.

You do not need a geometra for any project you can use an architect a much better proposal. So yes one or the other is applicable. New rules are currently being put in place to stop/curb geometras enthusiasm playing at being architects; they are administrators - at last well designed houses!

A geometra is not a project manager in no way shape or form. Otherwise most jobs would be finished on time and to budget. Which most aren’t!

They do a great job administratively (who couldn’t in administrative Italy- don’t you just luv it!) but what they know building technically using modern constructional methods you can write on the back of a fag packet.

A good bilingual project manager will save you between 5-25% on discounts alone locally and Europe wide more; when did you last see a geometra do that. And on top of everything you get piece of mind.

Oh I know and I’m sure there are more good geometras out there that do a great job but in my experience and those I help - they are few and far between.

Have you ever tried to lodge a complaint – my god - what a waste of time and effort. They cover each other’s backs!

The problem with geometras are they are completely unregulated they need to be curbed.

Your attitude (Nardini) is wholly subservient to geometras – They are like banks good servants but bad masters. Put projects back in the hands of the customer because geometras just luv spending your money.

You’re spending the money and they dictate. I’m sorry in my book the client is (nearly) always right - naturally clients must curb their enthusiasm here in Italy but I’m sorry touch your forelock to a geometra never!!

I'm sure that these would have been mentioned to you if you are in that kind of area where roof eaves have huge overhangs, but chains hanging down to a rock filled soakaway are very common up north & in mountain areas for transporting the outflow from gutters to the ground obviating the need for expensive copper down-pipes.
Pilch

Sorry to upset any 'proper' geometre here but as far as I can see its possible to buy a piece of paper which states you are a registered geometra or the other route just a one year course at the local college.

Doesn't actually fill me with confidence considering the power they have.

Just my experience, but our geometra was very good. He stuck with us when the initial Architect walk away and abandoned us mid project when things went very wrong, he also sayed with us when the initial rubbish builders did a bunk. He found us a new Architect and builder who were both great, and saved us from economic disaster. So to generalise is not really fair there must be some more good guys out there.
A

Sorry but after seven years of buying property and refurbishing in Italy using the all powerful geometra I'm a bit weary of them and their shenanigans.

I am unfair and you are right there are some good ones out there ... somewhere?

My two encounters with geometras:

The first acted as agent for the house I now live in. He was inefficient, unprofessional, annoying and generally incompetent in too many ways for me to recount here. Fortunately, he's too dim to be as [I]furbo[/I] as he'd like to believe he is, so I survived that encounter.

The second I hired to deal with alterations I wanted done to the house. He also seemed generally inefficient in that he hardly ever appeared when he said he would. He too seemed incompetent in that his original estimate for the work was €30,000, but when he had a builder in to do a detailed quote, [I]his[/I] estimate was €100,000.

I would not be much surprised to learn that both had bought their geometra certificates off the internet.

Al

Unfortunately, having a bad experience (or many) of a geometra not performing as you would like doesn't change the fact that you MUST have one to do all of the paperwork. Your alternative is to either use an architect or study for the exam - and then pass it - yourself. Concentrate on finding one that you can work with and strike up a working relationship with them. It will save a lot of time and money in the end.

Prices here are very much a matter for local circumstance. You will find that your geometra will try to give you an idea as to price - but he works from the municipal price list which is laid down for council works. Builders (plumbers, electricians, etc) tend to use their own price list which will be highly variable and will change according to the weather, their holiday plans, your own likelihood of paying and how busy they are. Not dissimilar to craftsmen costs in the UK, in fact.

So, despite what your emotions might tell you, be nice to a good geometra and change a bad one, before any work starts. Your geometra can (and will) charge you for his work, whether he has completed it or not. There is nothing you can do about this fact of life, only inflame the situation even more by getting angry and threatening to do something about it/to him. That is not how things work here.

Nardini the problem with your advice is that its not usually [B]until[/B] work starts that a geometra shows his true colours!!!

Does anyone recall the couple in Tuscany from Grand Designs whose Geometra produced fake papers for their building permissions? They only found out once they'd been fined by the comune.At least he went to jail!They got a £20,000 fine I believe.

I don't understand you argument about accepting the situation.To my mind this is exactly why Geometras have become so powerful.They need the very oppersit of understanding and acceptance !

[quote=manopello;81875]Nardini the problem with your advice is that its not usually [B]until[/B] work starts that a geometra shows his true colours!!!
...
I don't understand you argument about accepting the situation.To my mind this is exactly why Geometras have become so powerful.They need the very oppersit of understanding and acceptance ![/quote]
The logical answer to your main point is to suggest that you "try out" your chosen geometra with a small job first. Or ask people around you. All perfectly logical and reasonable things that any sensible person would do, surely, before committing an appreciable sum of money to a new project.

As far as your idea of treating a geometra with a rod of iron, please - would you treat a policeman badly because he won't let you park wherever you want? You use a geometra to oversee and regularise your building work because it is the law - not because you have a choice.

[quote=Nardini;81854]Unfortunately, having a bad experience (or many) of a geometra not performing as you would like doesn't change the fact that you MUST have one to do all of the paperwork. Your alternative is to either use an architect or study for the exam - and then pass it - yourself.[/quote]
My feeling at the moment is that in future I'll avoid the tech-school amateur wannabe architects and pay for the services of a real one.
[quote=Nardini;81854]Prices here are very much a matter for local circumstance. You will find that your geometra will try to give you an idea as to price - but he works from the municipal price list which is laid down for council works. Builders (plumbers, electricians, etc) tend to use their own price list which will be highly variable and will change according to the weather, their holiday plans, your own likelihood of paying and how busy they are. Not dissimilar to craftsmen costs in the UK, in fact.[/quote]
What a shame the geometra I hired didn't bother to mention to me that his estimate was based on probably irrelevant figures and the final bill could be more than 3 times the total on the list of works his software churned out.
[quote=Nardini;81854]So, despite what your emotions might tell you, be nice to a good geometra and change a bad one, before any work starts. Your geometra can (and will) charge you for his work, whether he has completed it or not. There is nothing you can do about this fact of life, only inflame the situation even more by getting angry and threatening to do something about it/to him. That is not how things work here.[/quote]
Good thing I have so much difficulty recognising when I'm being patronised. :eerr:

It seems you're saying we're obliged by law to pay a geometra whatever he may demand for his services, no matter how incompetent he is. If so, it begs the question of why anyone should spend the time and effort necessary to become educated enough to work as, for example, an architect or lawyer.

As it happens, I have paid "my" geometra with the worthless quote. It only took four requests from me and three month's time for him to get organised enough to issue the bill. But perhaps his reluctance was due to my insisting that I wanted an official invoice and I wanted to pay IVA on the bill. I was absolutely certain by that point that I was not willing to hand over cash and therefore not have any proof that I'd paid the dweeb.

Nardini, your frantic defence of geometras leaves me with a question: are you a geometra or do you have some other close involvement with the "profession"?

Al

After 7 years working against geometras my opinion is rather extreme regarding these beings.

Get an offer from several geometras, make a payment plan on condition of each part completion. All you need then is a get out of jail clause for non compliance and you can get rid of him without any problems.

As far as I’m concerned they do the paperwork, are the director of works in name only and that’s it.

Most couldn’t build there way out of a wet paper bag as far as a modern house is concerned and what is technically available on the European marketplace.
:smile:

[quote=AllanMason;81902]

Nardini, your frantic defence of geometras leaves me with a question: are you a geometra or do you have some other close involvement with the "profession"?

Al[/quote]
Alan, I'm not a geometra. I do not have any family member who is a geometra and I have no personal friends that are geometras.

If one is undertaking any kind of a building project in Italy, one need it overseen by a QUALIFIED person, to ensure that it complies with all of the legal liabilities that one has to comply with under Italian law.

This work can be done, legally, by an architect, a specialist engineer or a geometra.

The cheapest option that you have is to use a geometra - merely a chap that can draw a plan and has the responsibility for complying with current legal requirements.

As in the UK, should you use an architect to design and project manage your house, you will get a better, more professional job than someone that offers to "do" your plans for you from an ad in the local newspaper.

I happily accept that an architect will do a far better job than a geometra will in, probably 90% of cases. I fully accept that a properly qualified and registered ingegnere will be far superior in his services to that of a geometra.

But, the bottom line is that you MUST have one of them and the geometra is where it all starts. In fact, if you engage architects or an ingegnere, you will find that you will be talking to a geometra very quickly, being as it is only a job title of someone that actually draws and ensures the law is complied with - putting it very simply.

It is very simple as soon as one can strip away the emotional issues and the misunderstanding of what, exactly, a geometra is and what he does.

If anyone is about to undertake work on their house, it is - as I have said many time before - a legal requirement of Italy and has nothing to do with any option. Perhaps you might find it easier to equate the role with that of a building inspector in the UK. Not exactly, of course, but just as necessary.

There are currently new rules under review to stop geometras drawing ill-conceived houses; naturally the larger studio tecnico will employ a junior architect to get round this. However I personally feel this is a necessity as there are so many examples of badly designed houses. That’s not to say there are no well-designed houses done by geometras… somewhere???

As far as approved as long as you have the qualifications and the experience you can over see the work yourself; however a geometra is necessary to administer the works – the bureaucracy!!
:smile:

[quote=lotan4850;81933]..however a geometra is necessary to administer the works – the bureaucracy!!
:smile:[/quote]
Which is exactly my point. When all else is said and done - no matter how much you might wish to the contrary - it is absolutely a legal necessity to have a legally enabled person to oversee your proposed building project. Failure to do this could mean that your work is not legal and will be liable to be removed/demolished - as is currently such an issue for Brits in Spain.

If you have any proposals to build something - or renovate something - get permission FIRST. It matters not that you don't like the law, or think there is a way around it, it is still a legal requirement. A geometra is the cheapest option - an architect the most expensive. You pays your money and takes your choice, at the end of the day.

Good luck with your projects. Just try not to get stung on the way and don't believe anyone if they tell you that you don't need authorisation. You do.

:smile:

..... as long as you have the qualifications and the experience you can over see the work yourself; however a geometra is necessary to administer the works – the bureaucracy!!
:smile:[/quote]

They are only necessary for the paper exercise as a foreigner it is very difficult to oversee the bureaucracy. I am fortunate with enough qualifications and experience to oversee my own works.

They are administrators - they are not architects, nor are they project managers, they are over priced and over rated, et cetera, et cetera.
:smile:

One point that should be made most geometras are not authorised to oversee superstructures in reinforced concrete you need a structural engineer to do this or a geometra of a higher qualification. Most are allowed to oversee brickwork structures only.