8595 Heating/Water Fuel Alternatives

Ah, just done a search for wood pellets and come up with some good advice, but any other comments to my specific issue would still be appreciated.

Sorry for continually following up my own posts, but I have subsequenty read about the pro's and cons of the various options available!

So maybe I can ask a direct question. We are renovating our farmhouse for rental during the warmer months and for personal occassional use during the winter. We have made no decisions for heating/hot water fuel options.

Therefore, what would anyone suggest we went for, taking into account all of the price, ease of use etc factors? We have 3 beds upstairs, 1 bed, kitchen and living room downstairs.

The way I see it we could:

1. Gas for both water and central heating
2. Gas for water, pellets for central heating
3. Pellets for both
4. Gas for central heating. No central heating but wood burners downstairs (and v cold rooms upstairs!)

Thanks

Ian

How big is your place? What temperatures do you need?

Our place is a 2 bedrooms, lounge, kitchen and bathroom - all on one floor [top floor of barn conversion, garage and stores on ground floor]

We have gas for water and CH, but when the log fire is lit we often don't need the CH on much, apart from really cold snaps.

We find when we go out for a winter holiday that [after the first night, when we are heating the walls up] the large log fire heats the place easily up to about 21C - 24C in the evenings and the temperature is still16C+ in the morning, when we light a small fire.

Logs are delivered by our local farmer - nearly all the houses around us use him.

Some use wood burning stoves[not pellets] for room heating plus CH.

.

Seems to me that your Option 3 - only pellets for both DHW and central heating - has a serious drawback: the fact that you'd have to run the pellet fire during the summer.

For what it's worth, part of our house is a self-contained flat with a pellet fire but there's also a Baxi-type instantaneous gas water heater. During the cooler months, the pellet fire heats radiators directly and also heats up a tank of water in which there's a coil connected to the DHW system. This means that there's a supply of hot water even when the fire isn't running.

During the warmer months when you don't need room heating, the gas water heater is used.

An irritating feature of this system as it was installed here is that switching from one form of heating to the other involves manually changing the position of four valves. This is a bit of a nusiance during during Spring and Autumn when you can have a cooler spell after warm weather, since it isn't possible to just switch on the fire for a few hours. Instead, you have to reconfigure the system and then switch everything back again when the weather warms up again.

I'm sure that this problem is mainly due to the plumber who installed it being a numptie (I have met him) with not much of clue about anything more complicated than installing a new tap.

You mention the possibilty of having a pellet fire in the kitchen as a positive thing in aesthetic terms. Two points; first, bear in mind that these things are wood fires and so do need cleaning out regularly. The frequency, method used and messiness of the process will vary from model to model but, regardless of what the glossy leaflets and websites may say, one should not think that a pellet fire is just as neat and maintenance-free as a modern gas boiler. Second, I'd suggest that you only plan to install a pellet fire in a living space if you've heard the exact model you're planning to buy in operation. We have both a modern cordwood fire and a pellet stove in our place. They are completely different beasts to live with since the pellet fire is a [I]lot[/I] noiser and the flames are of a completely different nature, being more like a blowtorch than a cosy bonfire!

All of which is not to say that I detest pellet fires. In fact, I think they're very useful, much more economical than bombola gas (the only gas option possible for us) and generally less hassle than a log fire. I think they are something you should seriously investigate, but I also hope you'll not be persuaded by the manufacturers and salesmen who will try to convince you that pellet fires have no drawbacks.

Al

[quote=ianj;80587]Dear All

We are currently looking at fuel options for water and central heating for our renovation in Piedmont. The current option is gas boiler for both, but we have heard that gas can become very expensive. The alternative is a gas boiler for hot water and wood pellet burner for central heating (I have heard that wood pellets work out cheaper).

The plan would be to possibly have a 'feature' wood pellet burner in the kitchen that would be run during the winter months to provide heat to the kitchen and to rads in the other rooms.

I would be interested in others thoughts or current installation configurations. I need to decide if the expense on 2 boilers would be worth the savings of not having gas for central heating. I also see the other 'benefit' of the wood pellets would be the aestethics of a nice wood (pellet) burner in the kitchen.

Any comments or feedback would be appreciated.

Regards

Ian[/quote]

Hi Ianj
have you had any thoughts about Solar ?

Have you considered electricity (immersion heater/s) for your water heating requirements? Italian immersion heaters (scaldabagni) are very well insulated and quite sightly items, and would let you get away with a pure pellet boiler rather than having to install gpl gas (assuming you don't have metano available). When the boiler is running, you can send the hot water through a coil in the immersion heater if you want.

Considering the installation costs of an immersion heater (you could get about 7 of them for the cost of a gas boiler), the fact that running them would cost about 50% more than using gas pales into insignificance. One or more immersion heaters can be put onto individual timers (just the sort of thing you plug into a socket, nothing fancy) so that they only warm up when there is no other draw on your electricity supply.

We have found our electric scaldabagno extremely slow to get going- a lot slower than a UK immersion heater. On arrival in winter it takes at least four hours to get sufficiently hot to do anything worthwhile. It's better once it's going and can be left on overnight to guarantee starting the day with hot water- although a single bath exhausts the supply. The heating element seems tiny, given the size of the tank.

[quote=ianj;80587]Dear All

We are currently looking at fuel options for water and central heating for our renovation in Piedmont. The current option is gas boiler for both, but we have heard that gas can become very expensive. The alternative is a gas boiler for hot water and wood pellet burner for central heating (I have heard that wood pellets work out cheaper).

The plan would be to possibly have a 'feature' wood pellet burner in the kitchen that would be run during the winter months to provide heat to the kitchen and to rads in the other rooms.

I would be interested in others thoughts or current installation configurations. I need to decide if the expense on 2 boilers would be worth the savings of not having gas for central heating. I also see the other 'benefit' of the wood pellets would be the aestethics of a nice wood (pellet) burner in the kitchen.

Any comments or feedback would be appreciated.

Regards

Ian[/quote]
Why not have a air/water geothermal system. Heat to radiators up to 65C, water to 50C or with the electrical backup tank even higher. No buying pellets, wood or worrying about clouds in the sky!!!
An air/water system can also work to -20C.

Some good stuff in all the posts so far, so I can only add personal experiences.

We have a very large place and have a GPL (LPG) tank and boiler which we inherited when we moved to Piedmont 3 years ago. After the (prohibitive) cost of heating in our first year we researched alternatives and settled on a wood pellet system (furnace not esthetic) and a new build fireproof boiler room to house it (be aware that any new boiler installation has to have certification and registration with the appropriate authorities which include the suitability of the room in which it is installed, so sometimes replacement can be more costly than you think due to newer regulations).

We can now switch between gas and pellet (CH and water) but categorically not economical to run our pellet giant for water only - the nature of our beast means it has to run all the time and even in idle it consumes pellets. In winter exactly the oposite, saves us a fortune (versus GPL).

Interstingly (!) wood pellets are lower in price this year than last, with a good quality 15kg bag costing Euro3.70. Our current average consumption is 6 bags per 24 hours (we do have a big place). The post about cleaning/labour for wood or pellets is well made - this requires regular attention and is a new set of chores most "younger" generations are not used to.

Clearly depends upon your own circumstances, but if you go for pellets as part of the solution I would think you should include water heating in the circuit too (heating the water circuit is almost a by-product of CH) unless you like the electric water heating only mentioned above (IMHO Italy is not the best place to go electric water heating unless you have to - both on cost and supply wattage limitations).

Gas only - current condensing boilers are more efficient than ever, so a brand new implimentation must (?) be more efficient than a 5 or 10 (or in our case 15) year old boiler, so the price gap may not be as large - but we saw a reduction in monthly costs of 2 thirds moving to pellet - in Piedmont gas prices have gone up twice recently - would be interested to hear views from those with gas only solutions.

That seems very expensive for heating PP, 6 bags at 3.70 euros a day, even for a big house.

I would rather not pay it if that's what you mean. We are a bag per day up on last year - but it has been pretty cold (not quite so cold this week). 2 weeks ago daytime high of 1 degree.

We have two zones in the main house - each of 230 m sq, with the upper floor having a double height (i.e. to roof beams) main lounge of 80 m sq. Aditionally we have two apartments - although they are only on "frost guard". Being a "Vecchio Podere" we have thick but solid walls.

OK I am typing this in a t-shirt, so perhaps the thermostat is a little high :-)

A winemaking friend over the hill is using GPL, is smaller and is in a modern property and spent Euro 950 for 34 days (the cost of a refill of his tank after 34 days) - and he wears a coat and wool hat in his office!

[quote=piedmont_phil;80624]I would rather not pay it if that's what you mean. We are a bag per day up on last year - but it has been pretty cold (not quite so cold this week). 2 weeks ago daytime high of 1 degree.

We have two zones in the main house - each of 230 m sq, with the upper floor having a double height (i.e. to roof beams) main lounge of 80 m sq. Aditionally we have two apartments - although they are only on "frost guard". Being a "Vecchio Podere" we have thick but solid walls.

OK I am typing this in a t-shirt, so perhaps the thermostat is a little high :-)

A winemaking friend over the hill is using GPL, is smaller and is in a modern property and spent Euro 950 for 34 days (the cost of a refill of his tank after 34 days) - and he wears a coat and wool hat in his office![/quote]
Must admit i turned our heating down from 20.5 to 20 about a week ago as it was getting too warm in the house. I thought my 400 euros for 12 weeks for everything was too high as well.

just the discussion the doctor ordered for me, thank you ianj and all those who have replied.

We are just ( at long last) about to finish sorting out final details for our project in piemonte.
This will be a full time home
I am now trying to finalise heating / hot water systems.
House is in center of small village, no garden so no heat exchange possibilities unfortunately.
Ground floor, 1st floor, 2ndfloor, 3rd floor. approx 320m2 living space plus garage and cantina.

Solar panel water heating ? I would love it but two problems, only possibble roof available faces East south east. Does anyone have any views if this is viable, my understanding is between south east and south west facing is only option.
2nd prob is Government says must put up panels but , and rightly so, local comune are concerned with keeping historic centres looking historic therefore panels IF allowed must be within roof / tiles and not protruding/ not visible from anywhere. This means not possible to place at ideal 45 degree from horizontal. Any views ?

I have HALF decided that pellet boiler for heating and gas boiler (s) for hot water. Problems are that 35kw boiler allowance for appliances inside house has raised its head.No outside space for boiler shed available.
We will be building a 2 by 3 meter technico room inside largeish garage for the pellet boiler which will be approx 30-35kw. Forgot to say that we plan on only heating 250m2 and not central heating top floor.After some phone calls it has been decided that I can put 1 or more gas boilers in other parts of the house to go over 35kw in total.Problem of where and how still to be resolved.
Still problem of hot water storage tank or not ( if solar panels then definite yes) We will have 6 shower rooms plus kitchen and 2 further servizi.
Highly Unlikely that 6 will be in use at same time,but I am hoping for a large family so best to plan ahead alittle.
I have still to ask if I put a partion wall in already small boiler room will this mean I can then put a largeish gas boiler very near pellet boiler ? or small gas boiler in two shower rooms or one larger one in a toilet room the wrong side of the house and loose a toilet room.

Pellet stuffe in living spaces are very popular here in piemonte but do check out one in action first to see if the fan noise they make is going to get on your nerves or not. Seems strange that 35kw limit ( inside house structure )is set and then you can easily add pellet stuffe inside house of extra 5 / 6 kw no problem, or have I understood that incorrectly ?.
We will probably be putting one in the main living space also for extra control if this winter is anything to go by.

Our top floor will eventually have a pellet stuffa for heating living space and for the bathroom on top floor have been advised about using electric wall panel convection heaters with built in timer and thermostat. I was very sceptical about the use of elec heating but a specialist heating engineer here in piemonte suggested it and said it would not be so expensive to run, anyone else have any experience of these things. They do not have a fan and for a showerroom 5m2 by 2.8m high they say 500watt is needed.

This same engineer was also talking about electric underfloor heating ( not for our house ) and projects he has done in houses in the mountains further north. Even with 3kw elec limit 120m2 house with all appliances can be heated economically by underfloor electric panels and a control system that prioritises zones and appliances etc. Would be a whole lot simpler to instal ( in a new build) but all electric ! It would take some persuading to make me go for it.Would be interested to hear from others on this one. We struggle with kettle and electric oven on 3KW.

Steve