8556 Required Annual Income??

[SIZE="3"]For Americans the amount seems to vary from consulate to consulate, but no one ever gives you an absolute number. One person was recently told she needed $1million! The interesting part for us was that the consulate never considered debts, only cash on hand and continuing income. We showed our retirement savings, and the 2 monthly pensions we receive, but were never asked if we had a mortgage on the house!

If you're asking how much it takes to live in Italy, I don't think there's one answer for that. Living in the north generally costs more than living in the south. Living in a big city can be very expensive, but living in the country in a luxurious villa wouldn't be cheap either!

In general we find that food costs are reasonable, and utilities aren't as bad as we thought. Cars are usually cheaper here than they are in the states, but that's probably becasue they don't come loaded with tons of usesless stuff like power windows and sunroofs. Electronic stuff costs more, but we see those prices gradually coming down.

For us, dealing with the poor rate of exchange for the US dollar, if we didn't have a mortgage, our annual pension of $31,000 would be adequate, and if the excahnge rate was better (right now one euro costs $1.47+), life would be even better. Remember that we're in Umbria, in a small town, and things are moderately priced. $31,000 in Rome/Milan or other large cities wouldn't be near enough![/SIZE]

Hi Alan
I think it all depends on your life style.
Back in the yUK both my FBLOH were both working fulltime jobs, rushing to make sure all the credit cards got paid on time, paying the kids car insurances all the other old cr$$ that goes on.
The thought of having a night out was a mere pipe dream ( so much infact we could not even afford a pipe ).
Its quiet different here, with council tax at least a tenth of what it was, lower fuel bills ( we have solar panels) we have a large veg garden , ( dont get me wrong we dont knit our own sandles).
We still have an income from the yUK, but know it goes much further.
If you asked me to put a figure on it 1500/1800 Euros would give us a very happy life.

[quote=Torchiarolan;80283]Hi D&R
Sorry but not sure what to make of your figures,do you mean this is 1500/1800 euro [B]per month[/B] or is it a typo and means 15000/18000 [B]per annum ?
[/B]
This is actually also a question after our own heart because moving out in the summer, we are also going through our figures again and again and again.
When someone states they need (for example) 25,000 euro per annum, is this just base living costs including car expenses, ... plus trips back to see relatives/friends, plus mortgages (if applicable).
If people can state, as alan h asks, that they need x amount for day to day living expenses, (food, fuel, insurance etc) then interested parties can add on their own figures for mortgages, loans, travel abroad etc.... not forgetting gross or net for tax.
As D&R also state, a very low figure can be misleading too if those people live very close to the earth too. ( "knitting sandals" :laughs:, gathering wool to spin off barbed wire etc)
Thanks[/quote]

Hi
Sorry to mislead, that figure was per month.
As are these

car insurance ( 2 cars) 84 E
house tax 25 E
food etc petrol @ 850 E ( we have 4 very fat cats as well !)
fags and booze 250 E
nights out 300E

The view from our kitchen ....PRICELESS .......

How many are in the family for that amount? We would only be two adults so I presume that would make the amount less per month?

Lorraine

the below are my guesses for my own circumstances were I to retire more or less full time to italy as of now: for 2 adults in large modern house with gas heating & year round occupation (but not resident - i.e. higher utilities costs, no discount on ICI). Mostly ball park figures for stuff like cars & winter heating costs which I don't currently know much about.

00800€ ICI
00100€ Rifuti
00300€ IRPEF
00300€ Buildings Insurance
00500€ Contents Insurance
02000€ fuel (gas) for central heating & hot water
01000€ Electricity
03500€ Basic Car (petrol, maintenance, insurance, anualised depreciation/replacement)
05200€ Basic essentials shopping (food & drink, hygiene etc)
01800€ 'basic' eating out (5 meals out per month @ 30€ average for 2 people)
01000€ Flights back to home country
00200€ Basic broadband Internet
00200€ mobile phone calls
------
16900€ Total basic living expenses

I'd then add 'contingency' of 5000€ - to cope with other recurring household stuff like boiler breakdowns; DIY materials/consumables; purchase/replacement of electrical goods; wear & tear on furniture; unexpected travel requirements; exceptional medical costs etc.

So, I reckon 22000€ would provide a good basic quality of life for 2 people - safe & sound and with access to home comforts & socialising/entertainment.

Finally I'd add another 5000€ for "general fun" - the ability to drop everything and go on a weekend trip, stay in a hotel, treat your OH to a slap up birthday do, buy some gadgets, take the odd week's vacation etc. etc.

So, 27000€ would be enough for my circumstances. The only major thing not itemised above would be health care - I'm assuming access to the Italian state system, but I suppose adding another say 3000€ per year for private health care would give more peace of mind.

How long is a piece of string?

Location varies things. Some times a LOT in ways you didn't expect. The bus here costs something like 7 Euros to go one way to the "big city" At my cousins place less then 75 km away it's something less then 3 Euros for the round trip to their idea of the big city.

Gas/diesel is a few cents a litre higher here then there.

Food and groceries in general are also a little higher.

But the bigger issue is what do you like? Some things will be cheaper others more expensive. Depending on what you enjoy you may find your budget higher/lower then the next person.

On the big city/small town front. It's some of this and some of that. In a big city I could manage without a car. I could shop at the supermarkets if I wanted. All saving me money. In a small town you [or at least I ] NEED a car. Shopping at the small shops is more expensive. I guess this also gets back to choice. It's nice shopping at small shops but you pay the price.

[QUOTE=NickZ;80290]

[B]Gas/diesel is a few cents a litre higher here then there[/B].

QUOTE]

Hi Nick
Our little town garage charges 138 per litre for petrol, the bigger one 133.....and the biggest surprise on the motorway.......[B]131[/B].......go figure

Diesel here is about 1.30 closer to 1.31 really. Near my cousin it's under 1.28. Gas is closer to 1.40 at both places. Makes me happy I made the choice for diesel.

I would agree with Pigro's figures as they match our own calculations. Variations could not be higher than 10% depending on areas, type of home, car,etc... but I think that they are very accurate.:yes:

[quote=Gala Placidia;80295]I would agree with Pigro's figures as they match our own calculations. Variations could not be higher than 10% depending on areas, type of home, car,etc... but I think that they are very accurate.:yes:[/quote]

That's good to hear Gala - since (with the exception of the ICI/Rifuti/Building insurance), I pretty much made them all up on the spot!!! Either I'm better guesstimator than I gave myself credit for ... or you'd better double check your own figures :-)

sorry Torch - I really must learn only to post when I know what I'm talking about. Mind you, that would pretty much rule me out of participating on most subjects here (don't all cheer at once!)

Glad you asked the question Alan H, as I've been wondering if I could afford to live in Italy on a fixed income:yes: From the replies (and thank you all!), would it be a reasonable assumption that a single person, living in say Abruzzo or Southern Italy with no mortgage, but with a car could live comfortably on €13,000/p.a.?

Whats comfortable?

The car could cost you more then 1K in insurance.

Your home might have no heat other then a fireplace. Wood to barely stay warm could cost 150 Euros or more a month. Say 3 or 4 months of that. That won't heat the whole house either. Or you could install some sort of central heating. A propane tank for cooking costs about 30 Euros. Might last six or seven weeks. Less if you do lots of fancy cooking. More if you are more basic.

Food costs can vary widely depending on your tastes. To my eyes fruit and vegetables are fairly cheap. OTOH fresh meat isn't. Cured meats and cheeses are about what I was paying. Tinned fish is expensive fresh less so. Italian products are cheaper here. So depending on what you buy your grocery bill can be higher/lower. Mine is lower I think.

TV if you want might just be an aerial or it could be the full Sky package. Big monthly difference.

Internet here is either dial up or cell phone. No DSL quite yet.

Comfortable is a personal feeling. You shouldn't have any trouble feeding and clothing yourself on that. The question becomes will it be to the standard you want?

[quote=GerryH;80313]Glad you asked the question Alan H, as I've been wondering if I could afford to live in Italy on a fixed income:yes: From the replies (and thank you all!), would it be a reasonable assumption that a single person, living in say Abruzzo or Southern Italy with no mortgage, but with a car could live comfortably on €13,000/p.a.?[/quote]

Mmmm:no: I don't think so, following Pigro's and our own calculations you really can't. One person will still be paying all the charges stated... May save a bit on food (not too much), travelling (not much either...)... I would say that a single person would need to budget for 70 to 80 % of a couple's budget.

13K is about 1100 a month. Plenty of Italians make less then 1K a month. Plus have rent to pay. He can manage. The question is will he be happy? Only he can decide what his needs are.

Pigro's numbers include 800 for ICI. Not a small modest southern home I guess. 3K for energy. I wonder how many Italian families are spending that much.

[quote=NickZ;80316]Whats comfortable?
...Wood to barely stay warm could cost 150 Euros or more a month. Say 3 or 4 months of that. That won't heat the whole house either.[/quote]
It seems to me that energy costs are possibly the most significant variable in the "how much does it cost" question.

Our fireplace heats radiators in seven rooms of a traditional (i.e. thick, stone walls that suck up heat) farmhouse. As far as I can recall, we started burning wood in late October, although at first it was only in the evenings. Since then, we've got through 50 quintali (5000 kilos) of wood that cost us around €700. And of course the winter is far from over...

A temperature of 20° feels comfortable to us and so that's what we've aimed to keep the place at.

If this winter had been like the last, we would probably have used half the wood we have. If we weren't at home almost all the time, our heating costs would clearly be less. If we were happy to let the fire go out in the evening and wake up to a chilly house, the costs would be still further reduced. Obviously, they'd be a [I]lot[/I] less if we were content to wear thick jumpers, hats and gloves around the house and use the fire only to knock the edge off the frost!

As Nick says, comfort is a very personal thing. Some people really enjoy the challenge of living on the proverbial shoestring and there are things you can do much more easily in Italy than in Britain - like grow a lot of your own food - that would have such people well inside their comfort zone. Others would be made seriously anxious every time they heard the central heating system switch on because they'd know it was sucking expensive GPL from the bombola at a ridiculous rate. (Our costs for using that form of heating to keep the house temperature above 17° work out at more than €100 a week when the outside temperature is in the single figures.)

Al

I would say that heating and car insurance are the two highest costs. Food whilst on a par with UK, is of much better quality and freshness, and we only buy in season, so no expensive imports. We also have a large orto, fruit, olive and nut trees,so eat well. Meat is very good but as we buy locally reared, organic is not cheap.
Eating out in our part of Marche is very reasonable, and wine and fags not a luxury item as in UK.

Clothes also need to be replaced, but there are good factory outlets close by, especially one that sells excellent wool and cashmere, at a fraction of UK prices, and leather goods (dont get started Pigro) are also of good quality and price.

I think your budget depends on the area you live in, your lifestyle, and possibly on whether you have land and can grow enough to suppliment your diet.we lived simply in England, and so for us it was not difficult to adapt, others may not find it so, I think you do need to be realistic about what you need to give up to enable you to live here, it has its compensations, which for me far outweigh any disadvantages.
A

Thanks for responses so far - most interesting.

However, having got some figures for what you need to spend - how does that equate to earnings, before taxes etc?

For example [and to make things [hopefully] less complicated by lots of extraneous figure].

Assuming the following;-

Single Person .................. Spends E15,000 per annum
Couple .......................... Spends E 25.000 per annum
Family............................ Spends E 30.000 per annum

1. How much would they need to earn in Italy to get that spending money?

and

2. If it was from income from UK, what would it need to be? [I assume taxes may be different in the 2 countries]

I should say that these are 'theoretical' questions from me - [I do not intend to move to Italy - my holiday place gives me more than enough enjoyment/pleasure] - but I do feel it would be a useful 'broad brush' guide to those intending to move over and stay 'permanently

.

Hi

I also suggest that the type of accommodation you live in also has a large impact on spending levels. Modern city aprartment would have nothing like the running/maintenance costs of a country house, plus as stated before the need for a car and the increasing fuel costs.

No mention yet about the lowest £ v Euro rate ever!!
For those with a UK income or business based in pounds this could be a very significant issue regarding spending levels - less income ? less spending. Unless of course, those in Italy take the UK live today and pay tomorrow approach.

It seems that the UK has just realised that the party is over and the rest of the world agrees hence the low £.

Any thoughts?

Who knows what is really going on? There have been suggestions of some manoeuvering taking place to get parity between the pound and the euro and that whenever this will happen then the UK will switch to the euro as currency.... Well, not that long ago we would not imagine that the US$ will be at such a low level when comparing it to such a strong euro... We need a crystal ball to tell what will happen next.....
No doubt that this may affect the present and future plans of many people.

Re. "how much do you need to earn to generate X€ after tax" .... that is so specific to one's circumstances that it's not really answerable generically.

It's very dependant on how the money is earned ... is it interest from capital in the bank; dividends on shares; earned income from normal employment; directors divdends from company ownership; rental income declared as personal income; rental income via a 'shell' company's profits; How much of the gross income can be written off as expenses etc. Then, factor in whether the income is being generated by one, two, or more people (each with personal tax allowances). Finally as you say, the tax regime (UK/Italy/wherever) and the currency markets will all have a major impact.

Taking my own putative case, (income generated jointly by a couple, from property rental in UK declared as self employed income) -

If the 25,000€ you specify was the objective, you need £19K net @ 1.32 (the rate you'd get today from an FX broker).

Each person in the couple would get a personal tax allowance, and the two allowances combined is about £11.5K. Legitimate deductible expenses for the rental business (property management, maintenance, wear & tear etc.) would come in around £3K.

Assuming income flat rate tax @ 22% (i.e. ignore the small 10% band for ease of calculation) and 8% National Insurance for self employed, the total tax burden would be 30%. If 'X' is what the couple needs to earn (in thousands) in UK from self-employed rental income in order to to generate £19K net, then:

X - ((30/100) * (X-(11.5+3))) = 19

so X is approx £21K. Until the £/€ rate shifts again, that is :-(

Once again, I have to agree with Pigro. If we put the figures in Euros, a couple wanting to be able to spend 25,000 Euros a year should have a gross income, before tax of some 32,500 Euros... That means that they will have a tax - social security retention or payment of about 30% of their gross salary or income... which sounds pretty normal.

I guess I should have said "modestly" which would describe my lifestyle even here in Canada. The €13,000 was calculated on a "worst case scenario" - I hadn't figured in earnings from equity on my current house though. If I were to rent rather than buy, I'd have around €25,000/p.a. However if I bought a place I'd have around €17,000/p.a which would work out to €1,400 a month.

So all in all, its looking very good :bigergrin:

[quote=AllanMason;80320] (Our costs for using that form of heating to keep the house temperature above 17° work out at more than €100 a week when the outside temperature is in the single figures.)

Al[/quote]
We filled our gas tank 5th November, last Thursday (3rd January) it cost us [B]1500 Euros[/B] to fill it up again. That is to heat a 3 bedroom apartment (2 bedrooms not in use at moment so radiators turned off), and cooking for 3 of us. And we are down in Puglia, not up in the cold north. Definitely thinking of buying shares in Butangas:madd:

The obvious things are you don't need to heat the whole house. Get something to heat the bedroom before bed. Even a small woodstove. Spend the evening at the bar losing at cards against the locals. Go for a hike during the day.

I'm sure other choices could be made to keep the running costs down. They might not be fun choices but it's doable.

13K Euros is about 19K Cad right now. Considering it's not too hard to spend 3-5K in just property taxes in a major Canadian city you've got a bit of room to spend on other things. Cold weather here in Abruzzo doesn't match the vast majority of Canada. One night before Christmas we hit -4C. The next morning everybody was out discussing how cold it was :laughs: so even heating is managable if you want it.

One idea is to grab some of the online supermarket flyers and put together a few weeks or a months food budget. Pick the things you like and see how they stack up. The fact I'm thrilled to buy chestnuts for less per KG then I paid per pound in Canada might not matter to you if you're allergic.

I'm single and rent so the following monthly figures might be useful taken from my spreadsheet:

spese condominiali 130
electricity 24
gas 14
motoring fixed costs 80

I cook normally at home and even use a gas oven as well as sometimes heating water for washing up using gas. My electric is reasonably low as I don't have a dishwasher or TV and virtually all my bulbs are low energy. Heating is covered by the block expenses and were more last year and will probably more next, but have been reduced this year I imagine because last winter was so warm.

I'm lucky to have cheap petrol (around 65c-70c a litre) but I don't use my cheap allowance every year.

As somebody else has pointed out, 'comfortable' is a variable term and I would consider myself to be in that situation. I go skiing 3/4 times a week and even eat out: both things I hadn't been doing for a while in the UK! As I'm renting and it's going to be temporary I am quite comfortable with cheap IKEA kitchen components, although to listen to some people the thought appears to give them a fit of the vapours. I have clothes racks but no wardrobes. Clothes are another expense which I keep quite low, so cashmere, for example is not a worry. Wouldn't mind some cashmere, you understand, but a lot of such spending is discretionary, and you can live reasonably cheaply.

Go for it, I say! :smile:

[quote=MargaretM;80361]We filled our gas tank 5th November, last Thursday (3rd January) it cost us [B]1500 Euros[/B] to fill it up again. That is to heat a 3 bedroom apartment (2 bedrooms not in use at moment so radiators turned off), and cooking for 3 of us. And we are down in Puglia, not up in the cold north. Definitely thinking of buying shares in Butangas:madd:[/quote]
Have just worked out our heating cost for the last 12 weeks....... approx 400 Euros with all the house heated and domestic hot water.

[quote=sueflauto;80365]
I'm lucky to have cheap petrol (around 65c-70c a litre) but I don't use my cheap allowance every year. [/quote]

Sue,
What do you mean by cheap petrol and your allowance, please?

Sounds interesting!
Regards, Lesley

[quote=NickZ;80364]The obvious things are you don't need to heat the whole house. Get something to heat the bedroom before bed. Even a small woodstove. Spend the evening at the bar losing at cards against the locals. Go for a hike during the day.

I'm sure other choices could be made to keep the running costs down. They might not be fun choices but it's doable.[/quote]
After I posted earlier today about the cost of wood, I was doing some work outside and noticed our over 80 year old neighbour putting down the road with his little tractor. He stopped next to the pile of tree limbs left by the side of the road by the Comune workers yesterday after they felled a huge acacia. The Comune chaps had taken the big logs with them (am I unduly cynical to think they were sold to some firewood place to subsidise the workers' pay?), but our neighbour gathered up all the smaller stuff to use in his fire. Since it was fallen wood on common land, I suppose any of us could do that (if we were confident enough about the rules to do so!).

Al

[quote=iwanttobeinitaly;80372]Sue,
What do you mean by cheap petrol and your allowance, please?

Sounds interesting!
Regards, Lesley[/quote]

In the Valle d'Aosta, which is a semi-autonomous region, residents currently get 700 or so litres of tax free fuel a year, hence the number of big 4x4s here! As I live in town and 5 minutes from the nearest ski lift :smile: I don't use all my annual allowance. The EU is trying to get this stopped. From an environmental point of view I can't really object as it just encourages more and bigger cars, and people without cars don't benefit directly.

Goodness!
That's amazing.
The man we bought our house from here in Calabria lives in Val D'Aosta.
He moved there after he left school, we believe, as there was no work here at that time and he never came back.
Still amazing stuff about the allowance and something I would never have expected.
Thanks for your answer, Lesley :smile:

Loads of Calabrese here, all here for work, particularly from a small area whose name I can't remember, but they have an annual festival/fair here - called something like St Giacomo and St Giorgio -where they all dance a version of the tarantella to one-row melodeons, buy salami piccante etc etc.

[quote=Geotherm;80371]Have just worked out our heating cost for the last 12 weeks....... approx 400 Euros with all the house heated and domestic hot water.[/quote]

Tell us more please:yes:

[quote=AllanMason;80373] Since it was fallen wood on common land, I suppose any of us could do that (if we were confident enough about the rules to do so!).

Al[/quote]

We were told by our Italian neighbours that dead wood on common land is anybody's for the taking, however, if the land is owned only the owner can legally take it. Alot of the land near us is unfenced - some is common land some is not, so the problem is knowing which is which as a result any dead wood is often just left alone to rot.

[quote=MargaretM;80408]Tell us more please:yes:[/quote]
Best to look at the Geothermal Heating Facts thread in building/renovation Margaret, or PM /Email me for more specific information.

[quote=MargaretM;80361]We filled our gas tank 5th November, last Thursday (3rd January) it cost us [B]1500 Euros[/B] to fill it up again. [/quote]

Hi Margaret,
What size tank do you have, do you know?
(We had a Calor gas tank back in Cumbria and it was 1200 litres but the ones I have seem around here seem a lot smaller than that).
And what is the current price per litre of GPL here?
Does it fluctuate the way it did for us in the UK?

Lesley :veryconfused:

[quote=iwanttobeinitaly;80631]Hi Margaret,
What size tank do you have, do you know?
(We had a Calor gas tank back in Cumbria and it was 1200 litres but the ones I have seem around here seem a lot smaller than that).
And what is the current price per litre of GPL here?
Does it fluctuate the way it did for us in the UK?

Lesley :veryconfused:[/quote]

no, gas tanks can be even enormous if you want and are easily found up to 3000-4000 capacity.
generally the gas tanks are not charged by the gas companies providing you use exclusively their gas which is regulated by contracts etc.
usually the tanks are buried underground not above ground.
there is no current price for GPL one has to negotiate the price directly so the variations can be big.
we use a lot negotiated a good price and have a mountain community discount nevertheless it's been creeping up lately and has now reached Euro 0,64 per litre (for us) but i know of people over a year ago paying as much as 1 euro per ltre.

Without morgage repayments and only needing heating Nov-April rather than Sept-June in UK I think our spend would be modest

I'd be amazed if we couldnt manage on under 1,000 euros a month very comfortably.None of our houses have ever been heated to 20 degs except perhaps when the Rayburn is going flat out at Christmas.I wear warm fleeces and ski thermal pants!!I bought the best goose feather duvets I could afford and these keep you warm as toast at night.

We're spending a lot of our budget on putting in solar hot water and a pellet boiler and don't use tumble driers or dishwashers so our electric bills will be pretty small.

The weather is much better so you can spend more time outside with no need for heat and light!

But we've always lived very happpily like this prefering to save money for treats and travelling rather than boring things like petrol and heating! It's a different matter if you've been living a lavish lifestyle then have to suddenly alter- going cold turkey.Try it for a few weeks and see if you can stand it before you move.

Recently saw a survey that claims you can save up to 50% of your heating bill by reducing the temperture inside your house from 20 to 16 and that reducing the temp has a knock on effect of improving the bodies resistance to colds.
I know a family that lives need me who are English. They have a monthly budget of 400 euro's to live off. That includes running a car + 2 children. I couldn't do it myself, but shows you what is possible.

I agree with Manopello. Some of our biggest expenses are car-associated (petrol at full whack here in Le Marche - lucky you Sue!), and heating. We use a minimum of gas, heating the house (uneconomically enough) with wood in the fireplace. When the house is restored, we should be able to have a stufa, which will heat better and cut down on the amount of wood we need to buy. But this winter we've spent over €500 on wood.

Don't underestimate taxes and INPS - they can swallow 40% of your gross income if you're a freelancer like myself. Too make €1000, I need to invoice €1600 or thereabouts. Not impossible, but that's a lot of teaching hours!

I don't find food very expensive here, and I grow modest amounts of veg to offset the weekly spend. Even so, we only probably spend around €15 a week on fabulous fresh veg and fruit - not an expense I object to. Good quality meat can be pricey, but if you're used to buying from a butcher in the UK, you'd probably find the same or less prices here.

I think that water costs are only going to go up, so the more you can save and recycle, the better off you will be over the next few years. Water shortages were a definite issue for us last summer, and there still hasn't been enough rain this winter to top up supplies.

[quote=iwanttobeinitaly;80631]Hi Margaret,
What size tank do you have, do you know?
(We had a Calor gas tank back in Cumbria and it was 1200 litres but the ones I have seem around here seem a lot smaller than that).
And what is the current price per litre of GPL here?
Does it fluctuate the way it did for us in the UK?

Lesley :veryconfused:[/quote]
Hi Lesley

Missed this until now. Will check in the morning and get back to you.

[quote=manopello;82490]Without morgage repayments and only needing heating Nov-April rather than Sept-June in UK I think our spend would be modest

I'd be amazed if we couldnt manage on under 1,000 euros a month very comfortably.[/quote]

Once setup I don't doubt that number. OTOH the first bit when it seems every time you turn around something needs to be bought would be hard IMHO.

Furnishing. Home repairs/renovations. Odds and ends that you never knew existed.

Around here I'd say fruit and veg are fairly cheap. Cheese and cured meat isn't bad. Fresh meat can be expensive but it seems the local supermarket does have offers so even that can be had for reasonable prices. But the butcher's prices are much higher he also grinds high quality meat right in front of me so part of the difference is that.

For me I eat a lot more fruit and vegetables then I do meat so cheaper fruits end up with a lower total shopping bill even with the higher meat costs.

Of course Italian foods are cheaper :laughs:

Yes you would need a pot of at least £10,000 to cover emergencies.If you keep pets even more.

I was just talking about everyday items and the other thing to take into account is that Itay has no charity shops so no brand new M&S leather boots for £3!! Or furniture from recycling centers!As to the pice of duvets in italy!

[quote=MargaretM;82504]Hi Lesley

Missed this until now. Will check in the morning and get back to you.[/quote]

Thanks Margaret,
Just check our last Calor bill for the UK which was dated March 2007 and we were paying 33.65p per litre.
Thought it expensive at the time but doesn't seem so bad now! :yes:
Lesley

[quote=manopello;82647]Yes you would need a pot of at least £10,000 to cover emergencies.If you keep pets even more.

I was just talking about everyday items and the other thing to take into account is that Itay has no charity shops so no brand new M&S leather boots for £3!! Or furniture from recycling centers!As to the pice of duvets in italy![/quote]
We need a TK.Maxx type of shop here in Calabria!! All household items are more expensive than UK.

Regards Cilla.

I was just talking about everyday items and the other thing to take into account is that Itay has no charity shops so no brand new M&S leather boots for £3!! Or furniture from recycling centers!As to the pice of duvets in italy .....

(Boots from M and S for £3!!! WOW That's as good as my swimsuit bought there recently reduced from £30 to 20 pence!!!)

Joined the forum a few days ago, so providing my 2 cents where I can. This thread is a contentious one for me. The cost of restoring my house is a great strain, an absolute money pit as I said in my introduction. When I think I have reached rock bottom with my finances, I (or my builder) always find ways to start digging deeper! All I can say on the subject 'how much do you need for survival' is: god bless my local Lidols (or is it Lidl? cheap German supermarket in Narni for food and cleaning products), my woodfuel burner - termocamino (saved thousands on heating), my solar panel, and my vegetable patch which produced scrawny vegetables (irrigation system failed last year when I was back in Blightly) but still managed to eat them. With most of my hard earned income going towards renovation costs, I have proven that myself, my wife and my babies can live on Euro 600 per month (excl. travel costs) and still go out for a meal or two. It's tough though - I am not in denial!

As you said, Adam, restoring a house can be a money pit: however it will give you great satisfaction once it is finished. And it is great to see that you can survive and keep your sense of humour. Keep us tuned.

Sounds like your Lidl is better then my local. Here it's no cheaper then say the Conad shops and often seems higher.

What we have around here is Eurospin, another stack it high enterprise I guess like Lidl. But their vegetables, meat and dairy are good value, much cheaper and no seeming lack in quality from Conad/Coal, also cleaning stuff is cheaper and wine is at bargain prices, very popular with everyone around here and I see our local forum members shopping in there when we visit.Looks like they have lots of parties! or are stocking up for a siege.

A