8933 Underfloor heating & Solar panels

Do you have your own wood source? If not why not gas? A good termocamino setup won't be any cheaper to install over a gas boiler. Personally can't imagine going to the trouble of lighting a termocamino just for a little extra hotwater. So for those days when it's warm enough to not need heat do you want the hassle?

OTOH if you have your own wood then go for it. It doesn't take much of a garden to produce firewood.

Other then that remember your storage tank should be hot all night. So many nights you won't need any extra help.

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

Depending on the type of trees you'd be suprised just how much wood you'll get. Peaches need a fair bit of pruning every year. Plus they aren't that long lived. OTOH something like cherries won't help the firewood pile much.

Hi Richard

As you know we are going through the same process and have come to the conclusion that if you are going to get it right first time you need a heating engineer (not a plumber/builder) to do a proper survey. Whilst an additional cost it will save you money in the long run on installation and running costs.

If you want to bypass this step I have details of a highly recommended solar supplier in our area. PM if you want details.

R

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

It is possible to have a system using all three - gas, solar panels and a termo camino storing the heat in a large accumulator which will then supply underfloor heating, domestic hot water and swimming pool but it is an expensive installation. I only know of one such system in italy.

I see you have posted a number of times, read through the heating threads and you can hopefully glean a little that this is an interesting and complex issue and not everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet. You are absolutely right to be sceptical of both builders and suppliers.

I feel the first thing you can do is employ a thermal/heating technician for about €1500 (Adaminnarni may disagree here) in this way you should get impartial advice; you get a design filling your criteria and most importantly you get a level playing field in which to get an offer from several plumbing companies.

Our set up is as you would wish. “Termocamine” as a basis winter time and solar panels for DHW summer times and heating the 80m2 pool with a 2000 litre accumulator (heat store), the gas boiler as a back up for those times you are not in residence, no sun or just down right lazy. We have also a further thermocamine to heat the pool in the winter for the odd winter pool party.

NickZ is right you have to weigh up your needs and criteria because it is expensive if you want to be green. It’s like organic shopping – you pay premium prices. However NickZ must a youthful 30 something because forestry work is heavy and dangerous work with motor saws and the like. It’s not quite free there are some costs involved as well as time and depending on your age and your susceptibility to heart attacks – I wouldn’t recommend it.

Most studies indicate that the cheapest fuel is wood. However I would never recommend to anybody especially a holiday homeowner to do the same as us; gas would be cheaper in the long run as a holiday home.

If you’re planning to live here that’s different all together; however as I have pointed out on a number of threads the most economical with the quickest payback is insulation and more insulation; reduce thermal bridging, make sure windows have a low u-value; then you can start thinking about a sophisticated heating system.

The smaller the heat losses and the more efficient the system the less fuel you will require and the level of sophistication can be reduced.
:smile:

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

Not entirely relevant to all your points, but my house here in sunny Ireland has underfloor heating under heavy terracotta tiles, and although it's excellent for keeping the house warm when running normally with the room thermostat/timers, it's very slow to react when you want heat at an unplanned time.

The flip side is that the floors hold heat long after the water flow has stopped.

[quote=Steve Graham;84192]Not entirely relevant to all your points, but my house here in sunny Ireland has underfloor heating under heavy terracotta tiles, and although it's excellent for keeping the house warm when running normally with the room thermostat/timers, it's very slow to react when you want heat at an unplanned time.

The flip side is that the floors hold heat long after the water flow has stopped.[/quote]

No Steve Thanks this is a very relevant and important point and very contradictory.

Passive solar houses require heavy materials internally to absorb solar energy for storage for the evening and the night. However during the spring and autumn when you have warm days but cold nights this helps naturally but with underfloor heating there can be an unexpected side effect, the lag between starting the system and feeling its effect this can be as much a 8 hours depending where the underfloor heating has been placed in the floor structure.

As usual this must be a compromise; the norm is to have a 25-35 mm reinforced screed and then tiled. You must also think about the different materials you may be choosing such a tiles and timber. Timber is a more insulating material and the underfloor heating temperatures must be higher to counter this effect.
:smile:

Good points Lotan, we even say allow approx 24 Hours when making adjustments to the room temperatures to allow time for the floor density to absorb the extra heat required.
Timber definately insulates against underfloor heating and although it may be good to walk on as against a tiled floor, it has its disadvantages as you say that the temperature needed is higher. Another consideration is that as a lot of wood has not been well seasoned, then you also have the riskof ot splitting as it dries out further.
With underfloor heating here, we do not really get any side effects, as the external & indoor sensors "talk" to each other. If the temperature outside drops, with each 10th of a degree it alters the return water temperature heat curve, so there is very little disparity or delay in the heating.
You would probably know if this is available with a solar heating system, through all the new electronic controls now available.

geotherm,
My hardest problem the first winter was finding a reliable supplier of seasoned wood under 16% moisture content. The locals didn't appreciate me measuring their moisture content and then discussing a price adjustment. Real rogues the wood merchants and the farmers as I can be...

Then there is the cooling effect this high water content wood has on the efficiency of the boiler. It's always better to have as low a temperature as possible for the underfloor heating so tiles is the better choice from this aspect.

Now to the spitting and of course with wet wood you need more oxygen so most will put their "thermocamine" door ajar and then with wooden floors a definite fire hazard.

As regards the solar regulation no problem there we used Resol in Germany very efficient as you would expect them to be; and they integrated all the controls for the whole house not just the solar system but also acc tank, boilers both wood and gas, also the pool runs automatically.
:smile:

I have an interesting one that we are just resolving. Summer pool heating + passive house cooling at the same time. 2 circulating pumps, one already in the heat pump and the second to cool the floors in the house.
Things you get asked to do !!!!!!!!!

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

Geotherm,

That's nothing new you could look at a company called [url=http://www.climatewell.com]ClimateWell[/url] who do just that using twin chemical acc tanks. The science and regulating of these tanks is mind boggling.

Costs today about €10' just the twin acc tanks but getting cheaper by the year.

I'm sure I don't need to tell you about the temp in the floor and not to go below 15ºc or water will condense in the floor - that's right isn't it??
:smile:

[quote=lotan4850;84221]Geotherm,

That's nothing new you could look at a company called [url=http://www.climatewell.com]ClimateWell[/url] who do just that using twin chemical acc tanks. The science and regulating of these tanks is mind boggling.

Costs today about €10' just the twin acc tanks but getting cheaper by the year.

I'm sure I don't need to tell you about the temp in the floor and not to go below 15ºc or water will condense in the floor - that's right isn't it??
:smile:[/quote]
Very true Lotan. that is why fully reversible systems need dehumidifiers as well. With the first start up on passive cooling then there is a possibility of some condensation, but it is minimal. Solution to the client we have should only be a few hundred Euros.

[quote=Torchiarolan;84220]Can anyone suggest what they think would be a good system, and what devices would be needed for my proposed installation, I am not really a techie when it cames to this tchnology, and just want to have an idea in mind ( and rough cost total or per m2) so that when talk to the engineers, installers,sellers, firstly I wont look and sound like a complete muppet, and secondly wont be viewed as a walking pay cheque.
A case in point, one engineer down in Puglia, told me that it is not possible to use a termo-camino with underfloor heating as it gets too hot and collapses the underfloor pipes... very convincing he was too then screwed it by telling me there was however a solution and proceeded to try to sell me his brand of gas condensing burner instead. I had my doubts as to his explanations but could not argue with him due to my insufficient knowledge.... now I see several people on this thread, happily posting about how welll their termo-caminos work with underfloor systems..... likewise he advocated a 500 litre cisterne for hot water but here people are chatting about much bigger "accumulators" not cisternes .... though maybe they are the same thing.
Thanks[/quote]
Sorry Torchiarolan. I cannot comment on those types of systems as they are not in my field. Lotan has a wealth of knowledge with that subject and I am sure he will be able to give you all the answers.

[quote=avenir.jim;103208]I have used Passive solar heat for homes but it not that much effective an any one explain me how to improve that. I got some solar heat information from a friend can any one tell me how it can be used.I want to use that for my business purpose.[/quote]
First, the link in your post goes to an Australian company dealing in so-called "clean coal technology", so it's irrelevant to not only this thread, but also your post. That fact makes me question your true reasons for posting.

Second, there are many reasons why passive solar heating may not work well as it could. You need give more details if you have a genuine question.

I considered reporting your post to the moderators as another example of the weird advertising spam we've seen here of late, but decided that there was a slim possibility you are actually interested in solar heating in Italy. Perhaps you could provide more information? If not, there's a good chance your post will soon be zapped by the mods.

Al

[FONT=Verdana]Hello all,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Its looks as if I’m in the same position as [URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/members/torchiarolan.html"][COLOR=windowtext]Torchiarolan[/COLOR][/URL], I’m at the initial stages of work on rustico renovation project here in Veneto.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I’ve been reading through the threads on heating WOW there is a lot of information out there of which I’m trying to decipher.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]We are going ahead and installing under floor heating does anyone know if this can this be installed up-stairs? If so are there any benefits opposed to rad’s upstairs?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]After reading a lot I’m still very temped to have a combination of heat sources interconnected in order to heat the house / hot water i.e termo-camino + thermal solar plus a back up.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Can you use electricity as a back to heat the water system, as I don’t have a mains gas supply? [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]What would be an est. cost on a system of this nature? [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]My [COLOR=black]Geometra[/COLOR][B][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/B]has informed me that there is a new law in Italy as of 2009 stating that any new builds or major house reconstruction needs to have some kind of solar or renewable energy source? Can anyone confirm this true…[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I’m also thinking about installing a mutli split Air conditioning system, would it best to install one with heat pumps in order to use it for cold and hot air? And what about cost? [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Any advise or experience on these issues would be appreciated.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
Thanks

JW:masked:

Underfloor heating can be used on all floors. Advantages are no extra switching needed, due to the systems having different temperature requirements. e.g U/F 30C, rads 65C. Advantage: lower running cost and more even heat dispersion.

The combination you are thinking of, could be fairly complicated, but I believe someone on the forum has utilised a similar system, so hopefully they will answer that question.

New laws are coming in all the time.Thermal certification is required to be lodged with the Commune for New and full restoration projects. Italian law 10/91 & 192/2005.

Split air conditioners/ Heaters:If you tag search heating, the the first thread is a discussion on that subject.

Talking about termo camino, has anybody any suggestions how to keep mine in over night? Also what is the best wood to burn? Many thanks

Burn la quercia

Scooter there is a long and detailed, past Thread discussing which wood to burn that you may like to search for? Sorry have to walk the dog so can't do it for you!

The thing that puzzles me about the solar - heating link is that all the best solar energy is available when the only hot water you will need will be for washing etc, now if that hot water could be made in some way to produce air conditioning - now you're talking!

[quote=elliven;110560]The thing that puzzles me about the solar - heating link is that all the best solar energy is available when the only hot water you will need will be for washing etc, now if that hot water could be made in some way to produce air conditioning - now you're talking![/quote]

It can - see [url=http://www.climatewell.com]ClimateWell[/url] this company uses solar energi to drive two chemical accumulators so that you can either heat/cool or both.
But this technology doesn't come cheap €10.000/unit!!

Good luck!:smile: