9003 Cantina and planning

I think most of the ground floors on this street used to be cantinas. If I feel like it mine will become a kitchen eventenually.

You need a high enough ceiling. Enough ventilations. Basically all the rules that govern a habitable space.

Resale? Depends on the buyer. I like having a store room and am trying to avoid changing mine. Others could care less and will like the renovated space.

I agree. Most old houses have the ground floor described as cantina or stalla. Stalla for the animals, cantina for everything else! We have converted our cantina into living space, and there were no problems. we then converted what was a ripostiglio, storeroom, into a cantina or summer kitchen. This is what most Italians would use in the summer to cook in, rather than the kitchen which would be too hot. it is also where we keep our wine, the plastic chairs in the winter etc etc. Wouldnt be without it now!

I think that if you want to convert the rooms into an apartment, you will need an architect and a geometra, as we did, and I dont think there are any short cuts. To convert our cantina, summer kitchen and what was once an animal shelter, into a habitable space and to make sure all the permissions and documents were lodged in the correct places at the right time is not an easy task. Also the regulations are stringent as they should be and it would have been impossible for us to have done it without their assistance and advice. So I guess its leave it as it is if you dont really need the space, or do it properly.
A DIY job would be inadvisable , you have possibly neighbours who will be taking a real and active interest, and also the comune would also be concerned, retrospective planning permission here carries a hefty fine. As was unfortunatly found out by some English people close by.
A

I totally agree. We had to get permission to convert our space from the comune and needed geometras drawings and a report from a structural engineer as we are in a seismic area. They were concerned that when we dug up all the animal muck we might find there were no foundations! Happily they found foundations of our house, which was built on top of an even older house!
We are a constant source of amusement to all the Italians in our village because we ask permission before we do anything, and pay our ICI on time!

Whilst you may have permission for restoration, as has already been suggested by others, you also need permisison for change of use. A cantina is reguarded as being a store and non-habitable, therefore if you change its use to a bathroom, kitchen, etc it becomes habitable accomodation and this then has a bearing on ICI etc. I would speak to a local geometra, show him the permissions you have already received and follow his advice.

[quote=jinny;84879]Help!
Can anyone please tell me the significance in planning terms want is meant by 'cantina'. I realise that it means a cellar on the ground floor, but can you convert such rooms to e.g. a bathroom and kitchen and legally use it as such?

I already have permission to restore the ground floor rooms of our house but the planning permission only lists them as 'cantinas' . I really want to know if I convert these rooms to make an appartment will there be a problem when we come to sell i.e. would they be legally regarded as kitchen and bathroom or still as cantinas?
I also wonder if this would have a bearing on the house's resale value.

If this would cause a problem in terms of legality and resale how can I navigate around this problem?

Anyone please?
Jinny[/quote]

Jinny,
It has all to do with ceiling heights if it is under 2.7 metres you cannot legally call it a living room or bedroom and there is no need to change its use. You cannot legally rent it out as an apartment you cannot use it as a B&B rum. However there is no further ICI or commune "onere" due. You do not need permission to alter the space as long as you do nothing structurally or change the façade. Bathrooms don’t count nor do Wcs.

It will have no bearing on your resale value naturally it has been newly refurbished so you may get more for it. You naturally can use it as living space - no one can stop you the owners living down below.

If you change the ceiling height you will require further permission and will have to be declared to the commune so they can collect the ‘onnere” and you will have to add the residential area for ICI. And it follows the value will increase as well.

Simple. Naturally there are always rules that need to be interpreted and here is a case in fact. Of course the commune will say you need it they get the planning fee. Of course the geometra says you need permission he gets his fees et cetera. And of course the communes interpret in their favour every time.
.
In your case as it already clearly states catina there is no need. I will insist you need not apply for permissions.
Good Luck!
:smile:

Lotan, I think yours may be something of a jaundiced view?. We paid no fees to our comune, others might .To suggest that they are out to "stitch you up" is not true in our case and in my opinion unfair.
And your "good luck" at the end of your post is hardly reasurring!. Perhaps you are giving a rather biased view to posters. I can only go on my experience, and be assured that the job was done properly. Not everyone is out to fleece unwary foriegn buyers, and I think you do genuine builders, architects and geometras a dissservice.
A

to confuse maybe and not clarify... lotans aproach is entirely legal although something that requires an understandiing of the rules and how to work around them... a geometra will often help you in that sense... and i would have said for any work you plan it is wise to get a DIA at least.... or check with the comune..
whatever you do and if it does require permision all comunes will charge a fee for filling out and approving the forms and plans... which depending on the comune can be quite expensive
however the rules here i think are being changed in any case... no definite fact yet...so i dont get accused of scaremongering or whatever ... but i believe the days of the garage with windows and carpets inside the double doors and cantinas with fully fitted kitchens and armchairs are numbered... there is a drive to update housing stock values and when you buy a house here its wise i think to get everything sorted out by the seller and have it clear on what rooms are used for... a cantina obviously used as a living room is better labelled as such and the ICI paid ...
i would say any changes you plan should be done this way too... but at the moment lotan is also right
one other point to note is that if the election goes with a win for the centre right then ICI for all first home/residents is to be abolished... not sure what this will do to second home owners or non residents...

one other point which I believe to be true (but I may be confusing with Spain, so apologies if I'm talking cr@p) - I thought that each property has a maximum possible habitible area (based upon the amount of land and/or the original building dimensions if a restoration).

As has been pointed out, cantinas don't count as habitible area (whether or not you actually inhabit them on the sly). Going down the 'proper' route and getting permissions for change of use from cantina to habitable room would only be possible if the final, extended habitable area was within the maximum for the property/land?

Hope I've explained that correctly and that it doesn't confuse matters. I'd be interested though if anyone could clarify.

I would think that for most people living in a rural setting the amount of land would not be a problem, but for those in villages or towns could be an interesting point..no idea if you are correct or not though.
A

We have no land but have converted cantina into habitable space with no problems other than minimum height requirement much digging cured this problem.

[quote=pigro;84933]one other point which I believe to be true (but I may be confusing with Spain, so apologies if I'm talking cr@p) - I thought that each property has a maximum possible habitible area (based upon the amount of land and/or the original building dimensions if a restoration).
.[/quote]

One of the reasons big wrecked homes are often worth more then you'd imagine is the area may have building limits. New builds are basically banned and so are increases in the size of current homes. But renovations even of homes that are little more then a pile of stones often are okay.

I'm not sure how catina or barn conversions count in this. You aren't really increasing the covered area so they might be okay. OTOH I think this is something that could vary widely by region. I want to say Le Marche is tougher on these issues then some other regions.

[quote=lotan4850;84893]Jinny,
It has all to do with ceiling heights if it is under 2.7 metres you cannot legally call it a living room or bedroom and there is no need to change its use. You cannot legally rent it out as an apartment you cannot use it as a B&B rum. However there is no further ICI or commune "onere" due. You do not need permission to alter the space as long as you do nothing structurally or change the façade. Bathrooms don’t count nor do Wcs.
:smile:[/quote]

Not 100% certain what you mean by bathrooms and WC's don't count? Do you mean if you install a WC you need permission?

I'm about to convert my cantina into a 3 bed apartment, mainly for family and friends (got sick of them keep staying with me). I need to decide whether or not to get permission. I have estimated it will be about E1500 for a Geometra, but I have no idea the cost the comune will charge me. Has anyone any rough estimates.

Also any advise on whether to get permission or not would be appreciated. I have no plans to sell up but who knows what's round the next corner?

Thanks

Chico