In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I'm in total agreement with you Allan - and couldn't help thinking what an unusual first post from fredo.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Actually I hear that it is not just Italians that have spoken to the Italian police , ( and have been aware of this for some time) but also some English owners of B&Bs so I guess the message is get a good accountant and be aware of whom you speak to if you have not made provision for your taxes, and dont put it down to the Italians as has been mooted, possibly much closer to "home"
A
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
when someone is paid in the black or payments or receipts of payments are not recorded on proper invoices with all the particulars of the payment noted then there is a collusion between the two parties to avoid tax payments and both are regarded as guilty
it is essential that when making payments to someone you get a receipt ... or at least if that is unavailable... a record of the payment made to cover yourself.. which is not really good enough but should show an attempt at being willing to follow the rules
it is almost impossible here unless you are a private non commercial individual to sell anything or provide any service without a partita iva...registered to pay vat... so all receipts have to carry this element with the rate applied, the iva number and the amount charged and the details of the company person selling and finally the details in the case of estate agents of the method of payment including the transfer/cheque number
all Italians know this so if found to have made a payment without a receipt they are naturally assumed to be part of the avoidance culture here and are treated so... there are exceptions to this which is if you say leave a bar without the receipt it is just the bar owner that gets the fine... however they take your details and you are then on the huge database of people to check down the line
buying a property without records of vat payments somewhere within makes it more likely that you then get checked...
even if the originator of the thread has another agenda in mind... it might well be the case that this is happening... i have heard rumours around one area of Abruzzo , the bisenti area ... that this is also happening although often its sort of sour grapes with little action taken... it might be as well to take heed of some of what has been said.. the big agencies are suffering here, as the city properties they usually deal in are harder to sell, and profits are down, their staff have little to do and i can imagine the bleating that takes place about foreigners... it happens in all countries when there is a major recession and is part of human nature.. so these big agencies might well be the ones starting the ball rolling.... they generally have both the political clout and the resources of knowledge to drop words in the right place
finally i think its not realistic to suggest at least in Abruzzo in any case that being registered would allow you to name and shame anyone... i certainly would have near the top of any list here a few so called specialist Italians that deal with foreigners right at the top of any list in regards a naming and shaming campaign... all registered, all locals... etc etc.. but thats a story that cannot be told.. the Marche... maybe they are all whiter than white ???
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
This story has been going on since we moved here. We were cross examined by several italians to find out what we were doing, what taxes we would pay, were we licesned etc. At the same time we got a couple of unfavourable reviews that we know were not from any guests of ours. And you are quite right about rumours that its actually english owners that are at the front of the queue to 'shop' people - maybe its the english disease, that anyone doing well, should be shot down.
We warned anyone we saw over a year ago, and from our point of view the more people that come to our region, the more work there is for locals, and hopefully visitors will go home and tell everyone else how wonderful le marche is. Villa rentals are no competition for owners of hotels, bed and breakfasts or country houses - they are a completely different market.
I do know some of the italians that are incensed by the invasion of us brits and other foreigners - before we came they had plenty of visitors, and now these people are mostly using foreign owned villas. The reason is that the italians in general have not improved their accommodations and many don't have pools. I have been to tourist meetings in the province where the italians are very vocal about the unfairness of it. However most of them don't think they should change, their view is that they want to show the flavour of the region with rustic accommodation and that guests should want to see the scenery and the culture and not come to use a pool.
Who knows who is right, but whatever you have come for - get some info from a good accountant.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
This is interesting.I have been asked by neighbours in Italy if I can put some details of their houses on my web site.They want to deal directly with buyers and I do it as a favour and there's no fee for me if they sell the house - maybe a few bottles of vino but thats it!
I'm wondering if I should say no?And remove the pictures from my site?
My site is non-commercial as those here know who are listed on it!
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
If you offered free adverts with the contact details of the sellers I can't see how this would be a problem. You are not gaining revenue or facilitating a sale. Maybe I am missing something here.
[quote=myabruzzohome;98837]This is interesting.I have been asked by neighbours in Italy if I can put some details of their houses on my web site.They want to deal directly with buyers and I do it as a favour and there's no fee for me if they sell the house - maybe a few bottles of vino but thats it!
I'm wondering if I should say no?And remove the pictures from my site?
My site is non-commercial as those here know who are listed on it![/quote]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Richard from the Casa di Sole was charging 250 euros a day to British buyers for viewing trips! Possibly he is now regretting broadcasting this fact to thousands of viewers not to mention the tax authorities!!!!:eerr:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
without meanin to worry anyone doing what becky has been asked to do it seems to me that there are precedents here where its a pretty murkey road in respect of the law...
there have been cases where relatives of a farmer helped with the olive harvest in return for a bit of oil, even vegetables from the garden ... now depending on how closely related they are this is not classed as being taxable income... but the person has to be related at the first level...beyond that there seems to be a sliding scale of allowable hours worked before tax depending on the level of relationship...
so it seems to me that the tax authority will assume that you will not do something for nothing...in the case say of italy mag they charge a fee... and pay their tax... i presume in the UK... they do not sell property and importantly do not take a percentage... or a fixed fee... in fact this fixed fee get out has come under the scrutiny of the law already...
as regards the atto finale... it is wrong to say that there is no record within that....of recent legislation ..cannot remember the date but its at least a couple of years ago...it became law to have within the final act a clause that specifically requires a declaration by the purchaser of the fee that they paid and to whom... they cannot ignore the clause because if it has been suggested by the person selling the property that the fee needs not to be disclosed then the purchaser has to sign to say noone was paid... this statement if false carries quite heavy penalties and should be explained carefully by the notary if the client is declaring that no fee was paid...
now the myabruzzo home site run by Becky is basically an info site, she is not resident here , and i would have thought there would be little risk to none in doing favours... however residents here might be wise to be a bit more careful...
the other and more fundamental point is that you might well be breaking privacy laws here ... we do not advertise without a paper being signed.. we also do not advertise unless we are certain that the person selling actually owns the property... which can also be quite a nightmare in respect of privacy... in the case of more than one owner and signed agreements that they have all agreed to sell and at what price...
we get requests for links to accommodation sites here in abruzzo run by English and to be honest are quite wary of providing the links...in fact will not to anyone not registered to trade here... because whatever falls on them one day will have a fall out attached which might bring down something on us... OK we pay6 an accountant pay our tax and pretty much everything we are supposed to do... but Ive heard horror tales of how these visits disrupt life, and how long they take from italian business people here... including our accountants and do not want that risk...
the other point is that they often quite like Becky get asked to find clients and it would seem stupid that as our trade is selling property in abruzzo that we then get every foreign B&B owner in competition with us without any of the costs... so will only put on sites that i know the people are not going to be part time estate agents...
after all that... i think the thinking of the revenue people here is akin to proving you have done nothing wrong.. ... so best not to do it at all... the other point is that they take an awful long time to start on a case... sometimes you do not even receive a notification that you are being investigated and even the fine... its just attached to any property that you have... eventually after several years the comune might then issue another fine with details then of the proposed sale of your property to cover it.... you then have to chase around for days trying to sort it all out... this happens with unpaid bills of all sorts not just tax avoidance...
there is a major scandal in rome at the moment as people try to see someone in the comune to get these things sorted.. many of them being already paid or not even to do with the people being fined... ie it often happens with traffic fines and cars... if you ever sell a car here make sure you keep records of the transfer for ever ..... anyway these fines some of many years ago ...as the comune tries to balance books are all being sent out with massive queues each day as people try to get it all sorted...
in all respects here providing you follow the rules life is very easy... knowing the rules ... thats the hard part
It's never a brilliant idea for someone buying a house in Italy to get involved with someone who isn't a licenced estate agent (there's scope enough for problems with the [I]licenced[/I] ones!), but I don't quite see why [B]buyers[/B] need to be worried about efforts by licenced agents to increase their business by forcing the informal ones out of the market.
The buyers should be paying via the notaio all the taxes they're liable to pay on their house purchase. Even if there are additional payments being made by the buyer under the table, as far as the UK tax authorities are concerned it is the agent and/or vendor who is avoiding paying tax, not the purchaser. In any case, cash payments in the black are very difficult for the tax authorities in any country to prosecute.
But maybe my non-financially-devious mind is missing something here...
As for a "naming and shaming" campaign involving this forum, I suspect this won't get far unless those "named" have actually be convicted of a crime.
Al