10896 Open Letter

I'm not too sure if I should write this or not, but after the issues over the past few months - indeed, the last 12 months - I felt that it was time to put pen to paper and write about me for a change (don't fall over laughing, missus).

The reason I come onto this message board, like several others here, is to help. I don't come on here expecting to read anything about Italy that will cause me to fall over backwards in amazement. That time in my life is now long passed. I appreciate and understand that there are quite a few people that come on here looking for a bit of entertainment or to socialise with other (hopefully) like-minded souls. There are, of course, always going to be a minority that come here looking to cause disruption and anger in order to brighten up their otherwise empty lives. Similarly there will be the inevitable spammers and free-loading advertisers popping in as often as they can.

Speaking as someone that has answered a good many of the more serious type of questions - along with several other of the more serious-minded posters here I should add - it is always with a sense of frustration that I see the same questions posed time and time again - often eliciting the same wrong answers from the same posters time and time again.

Does it matter, you may ask? Well, yes it does, is the short answer. There are many instances of people asking for specific help with legal problems which should only be addressed to a properly qualified lawyer - in their office. There are other questions which are really very simple to answer - how do I get a Codice Fiscale? What must I do to live here legally? Am I entitled to support from the Italian NHS service? How do I - and can I - buy a car? Etc. Etc. These are the kind of questions that could (and I believe should) be answered at the level of the published magazine - or, at least, a properly supervised Wiki. Why a Wiki? Well, the laws change in Italy (as elsewhere) very often. These changes mean that referring to old articles or discussion threads is often going to provide wrong or outdated information - assuming that they were correct in the first place, of course.

It can be easily argued that anyone asking a serious question on a public message board should be aware that the answers they are liable to be given will be wrong. The answer to that, of course, is illustrated by the type of situation presented by 'paulnewman' last month. He may very well be a character of fiction, but the essence - or rather, the possibility - of the situation 'he' presented was one that would indicate that the world is not full of clever, careful people. You will recall that I, along with several others, made my feelings about the situation as presented very clear. Just as you can recognise my writing style easily, it is easy enough to recognise other people when they are writing a "story". But life is as it is and much attention was given to what was, in reality, just a "moan to inflame".

The part of that sorry story that annoyed me most was, in fact, the statement by a board official that they didn't think a non-citizen of Italy could actually get a Codice Fiscale. This was after I had posted very full information as to the where's and how's of getting one. It is one thing for a Londoner to try giving advice on how things are done in Italy, but quite another thing when someone that lives here - and is in a position of trust running the 'show' - gives wrong information. But, I answered that at the time and, I believe, some action has been taken to help remedy that sort of mistake happening again.

As far as the future is concerned - I don't know. It certainly feels as though the serious answers given here, as well as the research done to help people with their concerns, is often a complete waste of time, bearing in mind the unpaid natue of the job. No, I don't want payment - not only am I retired, but you couldn't afford me anyway!

So, what do I suggest? Firstly and most importantly, I suggest that the magazine take on the task of adding a section to the magazine itself that can offer tangible help and advice on issues regarding immigration to Italy. It could also have articles covering issues for people with holiday homes who want to know about ICI and how to pay ENEL. It would save a lot of arguments here and people could go on chatting about life issues such as Italian wine, music, language, restaurants, etc. Without too much rancour or - dare I say - any misconstruction. I would be happy to help (in private) if required, as would one or two others, I'm sure. Ronald...

That's my bit. I will watch with (some) interest now. No, not retiring after lighting the blue touch paper. And, I have to add, my matches are still in my pocket. I hope...

Category

Italy Magazine Forums - Announcements & Queries - No Longer Applicable

POST OF THE YEAR.

Nuff said.

Have tried to respond 3 times, no doubt will be more measured in the morning, hope this gets through, , pompous and not the "best" post.
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Well, I disagree a bit, Nardini! If I'm bored, and somebody comes up with a 'how to' query, it amuses me to answer it to the best of my ability.

You are right that things change over time (very quickly here in Italy) - you only have to look at some of the 'registering a car' threads. In total good faith people who bought a car without residency (because it was the only car they ever bought) say, yeah - no problem - and why should they be expected to know that if they tried it today they'd be in a quite different legal position? They are reporting their experience. The same thing goes for health cover. (I'm pretty well up to date (as of 06/11/2008) on requirements for extracomunitari, but I get tripped up on EU rights....everything is a minefield!)

In the last couple of days we have seen a thread on the Postepay card - and DerekL and anne2 have been swapping (up to date) experiences and hopefully finding a solution (this one simply coming down to a duff clerk in a post office).

So - given the speed with which Italian legislation etc etc changes, I'm not (and never have been!) a fan of the Wiki.

Also - I know how often I post a query (which many people might think 'newbie') on various computer related forums. I do know how to use those forums' search facilities, and I do use them first, but not infrequently I need to start a new thread!

I agree that some of the 'inheritance' or will stuff can ONLY be authoratively answered by a proper legal person knowing all of the circumstances, but I don't think that means the general queries aren't of interest to the readers of the forum. If somebody gives some advice which is way off beam they usually get a good thrashing......(having said which, some of the 'experts' need a good thrashing sometimes, which even as arrogant a bstd as myself feels I'd better not stick my oar in)!

So - in conclusion - you have to live with what the forum presents to you. It ain't that bad!

Charles, you were mentioned in one of my posts, connection is rubbish tonight , they tell me weather!
I value everyones posts and I enjoy, yours Als, and johns and many others, I think it is not useful to set oneself up as the "voice" of the forum we are all fallable, we do our best, and whilst I see it is frustrating to get the "wrong" answer, I am surprised in the light of nardinis posts which I now understand that you should think you are (nardini) above all of this. I really think that you have for me in other posts alienated yourself by by the use of your language, not helpful or useful, and totally upsets the spirit of this forum

The thing is, Angie and Robert, you have to cut a bit of slack to the pontificating oldies! We have our own agenda, and for sure myself, Nardini, Allan Mason, alanh, etc enjoy scoring points off each other - and none of us are by any means 'dishonest' or 'advertisers'. But - the raison d'etre of our diatribes (aka crankiness) is partially self aggrandisment, but more importantly (IMO) a genuine desire to educate.

So - to you (as I said to Nardini) - I'll repeat, just put up with us! You might just learn something, or at the very least have a good laugh at our antics!

?So, what do I suggest? Firstly and most importantly, I suggest that the magazine take on the task of adding a section to the magazine itself that can offer tangible help and advice on issues regarding immigration to Italy. It could also have articles covering issues for people with holiday homes who want to know about ICI and how to pay ENEL. It would save a lot of arguments here and people could go on chatting about life issues such as Italian wine, music, language, restaurants, etc. Without too much rancour or - dare I say - any misconstruction. I would be happy to help (in private) if required, as would one or two others, I'm sure. Ronald..."

Ronald was planning to set up this specialist knowledge database ages ago. Perhaps Cristiana, bless her, could do this instead, in conjunction with Ronald.. She surely would be ideal

I've no doubt you want to help ensure good, current and correct advice is given Nardini, but how to do it? You suggest a Wiki and this has been discussed in great detail (along with many other ideas) in the past on the forum.

However, the same problem remains now as it did then - who will monitor it - who will update it - who will guarantee it is absolutely correct and - most importantly - who will take responsibility for it?

I do not see ItalyMag taking on the responsibilty - and why should they put themselves in a position where there could be serious consequences should someone rely on that information and it was then found to be misleading/incorrect/out of date etc?

With regard to how/why people use the forum;- it is the diversity of the people here that make this forum what it is - on the whole, a very useful site where people interact (allbeit digitally) on a daily basis and by doing so, establish digital/real relationships and a community where each and everyone has something to offer - on every level including (but not exclusively) posting jokes, causing disruption in order to brighten up their otherwise empty lives or just having a sense of belonging and acceptance. The vast majority of people here do enjoy sharing a bit of gossip or a local snippet, reading a post about how someone did this or that - and dare I say it, even the posts about getting rid of hornets by flinging a bucket of petrol over the nest! (Sorry, MyAbruzzoHome, but unless you want to take all the hornet nests in Italy into your garden - I'm with Al on this one!) :winki:.

There are also many of us that rarely get involved in technical or "serious legal" threads as it is not something we have real life experience of - although, many, many of the other old timers here could probably answer some of the questions extremely accurately, simply because we've been members for a good long while, have seen the questions answered over and over, which means that we've learnt so much.

What would I do - even with all this "knowledge" I've gleaned - even if it was a question that had been asked a thousand times before? I would do exactly what everyone else does - I would open a thread and ask the question again. It's the best way to get a current answer.

I'm sure everyone is open to workable suggestions, but it is a minefield.

Please don't change the IM Forum!

Love it and have gained a considerable amount from it in a very short time

Except.......

Could certain longtime members "take the fight outside" ? PLEASE ????

Thanks

Can I be all holier than thou this time and say ‘Oh please stop fighting…can we move on now please?’

No, sorry it really doesn’t suit me does it? :laughs:

Anyway I don’t actually see any fighting here, more a discussion between people with different views; and that’s what the forum is all about isn’t it?

Back to the topic of the Wiki. I have thought long and hard about this and in a perfect world it would be the perfect solution, but this isn’t a perfect world and I don’t believe it would work for all the reasons Julian gave.

It would help people with questions if the search facility on this site was better. I sometimes try to search for something I KNOW is there and the search can not find it, so for anyone new it must be very frustrating and is, no doubt, part of the reason that the same questions come up again and again.

The ‘Tag’ system should help in this respect but I think a lot of people who are familiar with the site forget to tag their posts and it is not something new and unfamiliar members turn to when searching for answers.

A possible solution is to incorporate useful links into the various sections, members who have the link for paying ENEL bills could post it in the relevant section as a sort of sticky and, hopefully, new members could then be directed to source information, which will (again hopefully but we are talking about ENEL here!) be up to date.

Misinformation is a dangerous and sometimes costly thing. One of the reasons I come here is to correct anything I see which I KNOW to be wrong.

Sometime ago a very well respected, accurate and informative member made a mistake and gave information which could literally have poisoned people. This as I say was a misunderstanding and in no way malicious or intentional – but the consequences could nevertheless have been pretty dire.

The problem with the PaulNewman thread was that the OP consistently posted something which just was not true. At the beginning of the thread people were helpful and respectful but when he continued – in spite of informed advice to the contrary- to post the same misinformation, people began to ‘smell a rat’ and loose their tempers.

I don’t actually think that is such a bad thing.

As forum members we can help some people, some of the time but this is not the forum to help all the people, all the time!

We are a first base, to get some general information, but no one reading here should take 'life changing' advice without getting it verified by a professional or other with current experience.

I posted a couple of days ago about a booklet published by the Foreign & Commonwealth Office on 'Going to LIve Abroad' and Sally came up with a direct link to a wealth of information.
People have a responsibility to get all the information they need - we can direct them but not advise!

We cannot protect people from their own innocence, ignorance, bad planning or sheer bad luck but we can offer help, support and advice that is within our capability and expertise.

Morning all, I am not sure if you misunderstood my post Charles, but I said I really enjoy yours, Als and Johns and many others, long may you continue.!
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[quote]By Nielo: ".....Back to the topic of the Wiki. I have thought long and hard about this and in a perfect world it would be the perfect solution, but this isn’t a perfect world and I don’t believe it would work for all the reasons Julian gave.

You're right Nielo. You know, people with 'experience' in certain fields can always offer an answer based on their own experiences. As such - that information is true and correct....well it would be in many places. But here we are in ITALY - where even the majority of legislators don't know what they're doing - let alone all their minions in local covernment.

So - until Italy can get it's act together on uniformity of information, and choose to carry on interpreting everything in their own 'Jobsworth' manner, then forums like this one will always be working in a minefield. [B]With the best will in the world people here can only offer what they know was fact [U]yesterday[/U]! [/B]

I subscribe to an Italian Forum where all the Comunes of Italy can post and seek advice on the interpretation of their own rules...Now that [I]does[/I] make for fun reading.... You think there are a myriad of mistakes made here.... man - you ain't seen nothing! Over there it's often like Laurel and Hardy ("That's another fine mess you've got me into!").

Yes the reason there is someone else on the boards right now is to help create a less transient type of knowledge store and one that is not lost in threads, etc.

As for the rest (the fights, the scoring points, etc) just make sure it does not get in the way of the more interesting (knowledge discussions) and it does not intimidate new posters