3872 The trouble with Geometras

Here is one link but is you use search at the top and put in Geometra fees or maybe costs you will find more, use the post only button not thread, makes search more specific.

[URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/building-renovation/3388-architetto-geometra.html?highlight=geometra+fees#post28383"]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/building-renovation/3388-architetto-geometra.html?highlight=geometra+fees#post28383[/URL]

I think the answer is negotiate, negotiate, negotiate.
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surely nigel isnt this the friendly geometra you bought the house through... i have noticed you posting qute a lot on various options that you suggest are the best way forward.....

but without actually wanting to say it directly before i basically think your advise isnt very carefully thought out... and this question i find is about the last straw

not the question but your series of posts... first you reccomend one company and also suggest paying someone to set up your bank account.... did you pay any vat on any of these services provided...

next you buy a house in a private deal ... speaking pretty good italian and pay e800 for what you dont know... ie because it was not registered properly you had to pay for it... you have no idea if all its all legal or not....

and yet you tell everyone to follow this course...

and now we find out they are houses needing roofs (or at least one)and before you bought you had no idea of the timescale or cost in what you were about to do....

really its all a bit haphazard and may well suit you.... but how in other threads when you have apparentley no clue on what you are doing and not much on the italian language side keep suggesting that people follow in your footsteps...

in answer to your question they charge per sq m generally (e1000)plus planing costs (12-15 %) which should include a safety planning aspect.... and obviously if they do it right.. because the new roof will have a large differential in weight as regards the older roof... that is if they are not just replacing tiles... they will call in a structural engeneer to check if the walls are sound enough to take the weight... .. they might also call in someone to then do a geological test to test the ground ...to make sure the foundations can take it too....will be possibly necesary under the regulations here (but you will not know) giving you a cost double to three times the original figure i suggest... because if the walls cannot take the weight if it is a new roof ...they cage the house and reinforce it with concrete... ... and pin in all the intermediary floors too... and if the foundations cannot take that weight then they will pour concrete to reinforce that.....your talking tens of thousands....

now i am not a cruel person... and i hope its just tiles not structural work you are asking about in which case its just a DIA.. which he can submit quickly and along with the safety plan you could have builders in there tomorrow... but they most probably have to get permission to place the scaffolding too.. and then fence the area off ..takes longer if its not on your own land... and they will not be able to take you to the cleaners... but the former scenario does happen here...hopefully not to you ...but maybe think a bit more...or wait until the whole thing is finished ...even have the papers checked to make sure you have actually bought the place you think you have ...before telling others that your way is the best way... or the cheapest

might be best to think before you post much more on the process of house buying in italy again... cause people read this forum to get a better way of doing things... and in reallity i cannot see you offer much hope in that respect

Yes, i bought through an estate agent and found the process satisfactory for a beginner in italian property buying.
Yes, i have bought a house through a private deal which has also been satisfactory.
Yes, i speak and understand Italian reasonably well but i am not perfect and am allowed to ask for help on this forum am i not?
I would not presume to give advice i have merely stated my opinion.
Our geometra is dragging his heels(this doesn't mean he's not friendly)i opened the thread in the hope of hearing about other peoples experiences of obtaining a progetto.
I am so sorry my contributions do not meet your exacting standards.
I will not offend your sensibilities with any further posts.

From a total of only 14 posts in 8 months, Nigel has made 5 posts about Italian TV, 2 posts on estate agents in abruzzo metioning HAI, 1 post on Abruzzi dialect, 1 post asking for help in translating the meaning of "accatastamento del fabbricato" and 1 in a thread about buying in Abruzzo, again mentioning HAI and perhaps getting confused on the price paid for his property.

Then Nigel makes two posts today in a space ship related thread, before his 2 posts in this thread!

Hardly a prolific poster by any stretch of the imagination and the vast majority of his posts can be deemed as inoffensive and possibly sensible - especially the space ship related ones! :p

Im sorry John, you know I dont want to argue with you, but I was genuinely shocked to read your post above and you are bang outta order to embarass someone to the point where they will not post again.. unless you know somat we don't! Me thinks and hopes you do.. as I have only ever once before seen a cruel (but very well justified) post from you!

What are you trying to say John?

"now i am not a cruel person..."

No, I don't think you are. But you (like me!) can justifiably be accused of "making assumptions". Now in this post, you seem to me (reading between the dots), to be saying "do you know enough about building technology to tell your geometra to stop taking the p*ss?"

I have (I am conceited enough to suggest - or assume, if you like) sufficient expertise to (I assume) know what you are getting at. Your roof leaks - it needs repairing - and to do a "gold plated job" you (foreign client) are going to have to put up with my (geometra)'s opinion that you need your foundations underpinning to support the extra weight which I am going to impose on you to make your roof waterproof.

Now - I suggest - if you received this advice in your native language you would say something along the lines of "pull the other one".

It is one of those scenarios where all common sense flies out of the window - because you are buying "abroad". It is also one of those scenarios where - not having seen the property under discussion - neither CJ, widowtwanky, or I (though I am a bit more reckless than those two!) are willing or able to give a "certified" opinion.

Having said all that - I hope I have read your post with a sufficient degree of accuracy to have understood your meaning.

As to the questions posed by the original poster about geometra's time scales - in my experience in all relationships in Italy it is the person who rang him most recently on his cell phone who will get "action".....prod, prod, prod(i)

After my sniffy "i'll never post again" I'm afraid I'm going back on my word. I just find it impossible to leave such a vile, pompous and upsetting attack unanswered.

Quote "did you pay any vat"- yes ,of course we paid vat. Paying taxes is a legal requirement as far as i know and not optional as you suggest.

Quote "you have no idea if its all legal or not......have the papers checked.....actually bought the place.."- I feel that it is likely that the notarised deeds in my possession are proof of ownership.

As to your blatant scare mongering about the roof.
- We had a full structural survey done before purchasing and met the architect at the property to discuss his findings.
The roof only needs to be repaired but as we want to make the attic into a bedroom then we prefer to have new timbers.
This will cost about a quarter of what you say. Yes, the work is good because we have seen the example of next door.There is no weight differential (i trained as a surveyor, don't know where you got that from without seeing the house).

I would like to stress at this point there is no need to underpin or rebuild the entire village to complete this roof .Sorry.

During our forthcoming meeting with the mayor to discuss renovation i'm sure we can iron out any little problems with the siting of the scaffolding.

We obtained quotes for the work on the roof before purchasing the property and have had a further three since.We are simply waiting for the progetto before going ahead with the work and wanted to find out what other peoples experiences were.

Quote"you tell everyone to follow this course..."- I have merely shared my experiences with the others on this forum and never attempted to give advice.

I had thought this was a friendly forum for the discussion of all things italian. I did not see the need to bore everyone with huge amounts of irrelevant details but simply wanted to invite comment on a subject.

Also,what is Johns secret knowledge as suggested by anastasia? As far as i am aware he knows absolutely nothing about me, my house, or the area it is in.

And finally, just in case John thinks we are some sort of evil property developers. I would like to confirm we have bought a one up one down plus attic village house and next door to add a bedroom and bathroom.

Nigel, Glad to see that all is well apart from the time dragging which does appear to be the norm in Italy.

Try not to take Adriatica tooo seriously, yes it is hard when you are a new member. Adriatica is Mr doom and gloom or it could be said he tries to remove rose tinted specs from so many of the members on here that haven't seen the not so rosie side of things. As with any information, you read all, then come up with your own answer.

John likes to put the worst senario, he and I have had many debates about Puglia but from under his black cloud there IS useful information. Best to be told the worst and then ya own problems look easy peasy!

But I have to say not sure why he had such a big pop at you, especially as he had such little evidence to draw his conclusion.

Our experience with a geometra has been excellent. He has been, and still is, an invaluable help. The problem lay with the builders he gave the job to. They took on far too much work and so only did the job in bits and pieces, and late, and not very well. Our geometra no longer uses them, but I daresay that this kind of thing happens and not just in Italy. Work we had done in UK was just as bad, the builder eventually going broke. Good luck with the renovations!

Wow, that was quite an outburst from John!
I don't feel it's very fair to criticise Nigel for his post. There were a number of assumptions in Johns post and the implication that Nigel was leading other buyers into financial danger is silly. We all buy following our own research and will probably be far more influenced by what the agent and geometra we speak to tell us than be a couple of threads on this forum (helpful though it may be).
I too bought through HAI (and am perfectly happy), I too am using a geometra who seems to be slow ( oh well, theres no particular hurry for me),
Yes, I too was not fully aware of all the building regs. and the necessity to have planning permission to open a window on a hot day... but for me it's part of the adventure - I did get quotes for the work beforehand and have an idea of where the bottom of my pit is and still believe it's going to work out fine.
Nevertheless, John can have a go at me too if he feels inclined. And by the way,... whats with.... all the dots.....?
Marco Mando

They're Johns dots.....wouldn't be John without the dots! oh dear now that he's got well and trulli told off, it'll take ages to get him back on to post again. His posts do add to this forum whether we all agree or not. He probably had a bad news day or somink! ;) :D

[QUOTE=marco mando] And by the way,... whats with.... all the dots.....?
Marco Mando[/QUOTE]

Aaaaargh!!!!!! Yet again it's the punctuation police!!!!!! I thought we'd got rid of them a while ago!!!!!! Have to stop using all these exclamation marks soon, if it carries on!!!!!!:mad:

Andy

Twinkie..

Marco is newish and doth not comprehend the finer nuances of said forum as yet. We could always reco - mando he learns.. as we all once had to.. or we could just wait for him to make a typographical error and then.. pounce on him.

All my errors are intentional.. even the removal of the thought police! :D :D

Now, now Twanky and Anaesthesia, I didn't criticise Johns punctuation just wondered... why....all the.......dots? Being Adriatica I figured he was looking across at the Dalmation coast......(and I still feel he was too harsh on Nigel).

In fact I'm not from the punctuation police, I represent the smilie taxation bureau and can't help noticing the excessive use of a surplus smilie in Anaesthesias last post. Excessive smilies contribute to global warming as indeed does the use of the infamous red 'mad' face (which clearly generates heat).

Please post more carefully in future or your local comunes will be notified, setting in action an immensely bureaucratic and time consuming tax collection process. You have been warned..... ... ..... ..:eek: :mad: :D :p

Phew! Thank god a member with a sense of humour! :D :D :D Oops, how much tax is three smiley's? :p

[QUOTE=marco mando] You have been warned..... ... ..... ..:eek: :mad: :D :p[/QUOTE]

And by the way,... whats with.... all the dots.....?

Andy

PS: Would have far more smilies in open defience of the smilie police, but got the following message when i tried!!

You have included 6 images in your message. You are limited to using 4 images so please go back and correct the problem and then continue again.

He's obviously working for Ronald everyone. He's a spy!!!!

[QUOTE=Anastasia]Twinkie..

Marco is newish and doth not comprehend the finer nuances of said forum as yet. We could always reco - mando he learns.. as we all once had to.. or we could just wait for him to make a typographical error and then.. pounce on him.

All my errors are intentional.. even the removal of the thought police! :D :D[/QUOTE]

Oh well then, I'll consider myself told.

Will just sit in the corner twiddling with my twanky from now on then!:mad:

Andy

I .. ahve.. always....... taken .....great pirde.. in my posts...................they never hvae spilling mestakes or erroris in side. they are punctured,, corectly and look, pritty. I does ,all this,, while. telling twinkeyy not to twiddle with twankey..

and I'll never pay tax to Judge Dread :D :D :D :D

Oh goodness, dyslexyfickle is catching! You have spent far to much time chatting to me! Let Twinkie fiddle, it keeps him happy. ;)

Hi all,

Ever wished you'd kept your gob shut???!!!.......

Just to let you know we have our progetto at last.

Plans look fab, if a little showy, but we'll bring him back down to earth when we see him at the weekend.

Thanks for all your support and advice.:D :D :D :D

Do i need planning for these smilies????

Yes, and I'm sorry but only your Geometra is allowed to submit smilies (on your behalf of course) after first drawing up complicated smilie progetto permesso application papers requiring signatures in triplicate and mafia approval:cool:
Marco mando

Wotya talking 'bout Marco? Don't ya know they dont have Mafia in Abruzzo? :D

I'm sure you could borrow one from Puglia. ;) :D
Glad you've got things sorted Nig!

[QUOTE=Anastasia]Wotya talking 'bout Marco? Don't ya know they dont have Mafia in Abruzzo? :D[/QUOTE]

Even if they did, they would all be hiding at the moment anyway. Sent my mother over to check on the building work and she went round and bullied everyone she could find. In rather poor Italian I might add. Managed to get the kitchen fitted when she was out there which was good. They even turned up on time on the day they said!! She also got two empty promises about fitting the back door and finishing the builders work.

Think the carpenter was a bit surprised when she turned up and asked to see the door he said he was halfway through making!!!!:D :D :D

Andy

Lucky for your builders it wasn't my mum who went over! :D :D :D: :D

[QUOTE=nigelgh]Are all Geometras secretive,slow,difficult to get hold of,last minuters? Or is it just ours?And how do they arrive at their prices? Anyone please.
Oh and has anyone any clue as to what they charge for a progetto to redo a small roof . Grazie nige.:confused:[/QUOTE]

I believe that most geometras charge 10% of project costs. But does anyone know whether this is the cost before or after IVA is added, because on a large project this would make quite a diffderence?
A bit disappointed in all the juvenile dirivle on this thread-grow up!

[QUOTE=jinny]I believe that most geometras charge 10% of project costs. But does anyone know whether this is the cost before or after IVA is added, because on a large project this would make quite a diffderence?
A bit disappointed in all the juvenile dirivle on this thread-grow up![/QUOTE]

Ronald, now you see where that namby-pamby attitude has got us – a pleb with ideas! A girl who thinks she has choices! This keeping order is going to be harder than I thought – perhaps Ronald’ll need to take more drastic measures! Maybe she's worried that if you are too open minded your brains fall out.:D :D :D

Andy

[quote=jinny]I believe that most geometras charge 10% of project costs. But does anyone know whether this is the cost before or after IVA is added, because on a large project this would make quite a diffderence?
A bit disappointed in all the juvenile dirivle on this thread-grow up![/quote]

jinny, when you have been on this as long as we have, it is nice to have a laugh as well as be serious. You will find that 'us' provide a lot of useful info, know where to find threads that have answered the questions previously. So ignore the drivle and make use of what you need or maybe lighten up a bit, eh? ;)

Twinkey.. She's behind you.. so can I be Wendy? :p

Well I'm Tinkerbell then! :D