10022 Deposit Required?

I think you are right to be wary - there could be circumstances in Italy just the same as in the UK where you might want to do it, but it isn't 'the norm'. (It is however quite normal for say, a builders' merchant to ask for a deposit when you order some tiles or bathroom fittings etc which are not in stock.)

Have you got permission for the building works, or made certain that you don't need any permission? The rules are really quite tight in Italy.

I paid 30% up front as I was told this was normal; I would never do this in England where I have been involved in the construction industry for over 20 years. Could I have been lied to yet again? Surely not!:madd:

I would NEVER give a builder a deposit.........suggest that you buy the materials etc as and when required, that way he cant put commission on the bill either .

[quote=Charles Phillips;93361]

Have you got permission for the building works, or made certain that you don't need any permission? The rules are really quite tight in Italy.[/quote]

Charles is on the money with this advice.........I know of 3 cases locallly where the permissions have not been granted, all 3 parties usaing the SAME geometra, costing people 1000s.....double check and then check again.

I paid a small deposit to both the builder and the geometra after I'd signed the contracts. The builders invoice me at stages, but the overall project is quite small anyway.

I asked my husband (retired architect), he says that you need to have a contract with the builder stating when payments are due as work progresses. He would not advise to pay more than 10% as an initial deposit. And always have a retention sum to cover defects, etc. Have plans been drawn and submitted? To be on the safe side you should have the contract administration done by the architect or geometra involved in the other areas. You will have to pay a fee for that.... but you will save a lot in the long run.

i agree with English Teacher, it does not seem out of the norm to me that should you be using a small building firm for a project that payments are made in stages throughout the work, basically a sum to guarantee them that they are not going to be out of pocket...

we have had work carried out by builders in this way ... have to say under a project approved and quoted on ... after they had laid in the first amount of concrete and knocked the house to bits we paid an amount for work completed and at the same time an amount for materail to be bought...

the main idea is to hold back payments until bits are done and approved by you and final payments should never be made until everything is to your satisfaction

however none of our advice can be certain if you are in with a set of rogues... it will not do any good whatever is said here...you have to trust your own instincts and basically whatever system of payments is asked for if you feel that you have good reason to trust them it will all work out am sure... but always keep the last payment back

[quote=rosecottage;93345]Have recently engaged some builders to undertake work on my property and have been asked for a deposit to pay for materials etc....

I'm not sure that I would agree to this in the UK and just wondered whether this is usual? - when in Rome and all that!![/quote]

All of the builders merchants in our area allow an account to be set up in either the builders name (with the property address) or the house owners name. Bills are sent out monthly with a month to pay - assuming, as others have suggested, that you are happy all is above board, rather than pay the builder up front, why not suggest either you or he set up an acccount and you will pay the money directly to the merchants when you receive the bill? If he is reluctant to do this ask why - it means he will not be out of pocket and if he is well regarded at the builders merchants then there should be no problem. You would then just need to check he has actually used the materials bought on your behalf, but at least he could not disappear with your money!

Stage payments are as normal in Italy as they are in the UK. Most builders in the UK will ask for a deposit payment before starting a job. Some ask for far too much to pay for materials (sometimes this is because they have no credit at the builders merchant and have to pay cash in advance). In Italy, in many cases, it's exactly the same but in my own experience and people I know, the main difference is that many builders will start a job on trust with stage payments with no deposit. Then again all situations are different and maybe it varies in other parts of Italy.

For those of us who live in the UK, looking at it from an Italian builders point of view, he is asked to start work on a house/project for someone he doesn't know, can't check their credit rating, they probably don't speak the language very well or at all, live in another country and he has to wait for him/her to come over every now and then to check for work completed and pay what's due !!. Of course, this may be partly because the laws in Italy are different. If a builder doesn't get paid for doing work, he can legally lock you out of your own home and you have to either pay up or take him to court (I'm not sure of the exact legal details, perhaps someone on the forum can clarify this point).

When I had my balcony extended and retiled, the builder didn't as for payment up front, but the tiling contractor did - as he had to order the tiles in [and probably wanted to make sure he had the money for them]. I didn't have a problem with this request - but I was using a local builder who had been recommended by several people, and he was there when the early payment was both requested and made, [as was the geometra].

I think that its 'horses for courses' - if you're not happy with paying up front - get another contractor in

[QUOTE=Biagio;93403]Stage payments are as normal in Italy as they are in the UK. Most builders in the UK will ask for a deposit payment before starting a job. Some ask for far too much to pay for materials (sometimes this is because they have no credit at the builders merchant and have to pay cash in advance). In Italy, in many cases, it's exactly the same but in my own experience and people I know, the main difference is that many builders will start a job on trust with stage payments with no deposit. Then again all situations are different and maybe it varies in other parts of Italy.

I have as I said worked in the construction industry for 25 years running projects from extensions to Grade I listed buildings to an £18 million hospital and I can assure you that it definitely not the norm to pay an up front deposit in any circumstances. Stage payments should be authorised and signed off by the architect as and when work is completed to a satisfactory standard. If a contractor is unable to secure an accout at a builders merchant then I would not recommend using him in the first place.The retention is in place to make sure the contractor has an incentive to come back to make good his 6 or 12 months defects.

[quote=rosecottage;93345]Have recently engaged some builders to undertake work on my property and have been asked for a deposit to pay for materials etc....

I'm not sure that I would agree to this in the UK and just wondered whether this is usual? - when in Rome and all that!![/quote]
yes, we paid our builders an initial sum,this was not "against" costs of materials which we in any case bought but as simply an advance,this carried on during the entire time of the building work and here is considered normal.it has to be said that there have been a number of cases in which local tradesmen have "waived" this practice as their british clients seemed well to do only to find that they went off without paying,one even bounced a cheque..there's always another side to these things..

All the advice makes sense,

I have recently redone all the doors and windows at my property in hardwood and agreed a series of stage payments, one being a significant deposit for materials, a second payment for installation, transport etc and a final payment (yet to be paid) for completion to my satisifaction.

I have also just completed some major renovation work in the UK, I agreed a "sales" fee up front and then the balance of the money on stage completion of works.

There is an element of trust both ways, if its a local builder recommended then talk to those people who recommended him.

I have as I said worked in the construction industry for 25 years running projects from extensions to Grade I listed buildings to an £18 million hospital and I can assure you that it definitely not the norm to pay an up front deposit in any circumstances. Stage payments should be authorised and signed off by the architect as and when work is completed to a satisfactory standard. If a contractor is unable to secure an accout at a builders merchant then I would not recommend using him in the first place.The retention is in place to make sure the contractor has an incentive to come back to make good his 6 or 12 months defects.[/QUOTE]

Marie
Don't take this as me trying to start an argument, but I'm surprised that with your 25years experience in the contruction industry that you agreed to pay 30% up front, which is a huge amount to give anyone you don't really know in any country, but anyway, that's your business. With regards to deposits in the UK, I've also been involved in a number of projects with extensions, refurbs etc etc for the last 25 years or more although I have only ever dealt with very small family type builders and not the large construction projects you have been involved in. I have no doubt in what you say with large projects, but in the last 8 or 9 years, I'm finding that more and more small builders in the UK are asking for varying amounts of deposits before starting a job, usually on the first day that they turn up with workmen and materials. Maybe this is just a trend in my local area. but I can tell you that in just the last 3 years for example, I have been involved in 7 small building projects of between £15k and £75k and I've had a total of 23 quotes. Every single one of those quotes asked for a deposit on the day they start work which varied from 5% to 20%. I suspect that the vast majority of people on this forum involved with building projects are employing small local family builder for an extension, refurbishment or rebuild of a house except for a few who have built or reconstructed a larger property as an agriturismo/bed & breakfast. :smile:

I know Biagio,
I feel like a total numpty! The latest development is my builder lied to me about agreeing changes with my geometra, so now I've unintentionaly upset him (geometra) and am left with a fait acompli which has not got permission from the Commune. Aargh!:eerr:

[quote=marie armstrong;93473] The latest development is my builder lied to me about agreeing changes with my geoetra, so now I've unintentionaly upset him (geometra) and am left with a fait acompli which has not got permission from the Commune. Aargh!:eerr:[/quote]

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you get things sorted out.
One of my own frustrations with Geometras and Builders (while I think they do a great job) I have had on a couple of occasions is where the builder has agreed with the Geometra to a change on something on the plan, (both times meaning a potential increase in cost) I've had to remind them both that I'm the one that pays the bill and any changes should come through me first. A popular phrase is 'but that's how we do things here' and while I'm a great believer in adapting and accepting local traditions, some things I will insist on doing them my way if I'm paying. When the plans were drawn up for my house, the main change I made was that I wanted a large open plan kitchen, dining room and lounge mainly because of the structure of the ceiling with large wooden beams that I wanted to be able to see as a whole. Both the Geometra and Builder thought I was mad and couldn't understand why I didn't want the kitchen as a separate room and that this was very unusual for the area.

Another funny quirk I've noticed is when you disagree with them they say you have to do it their way as it is the law!

The hardest quirk to get over was that someone's word was their hope (certainly not their bond).
Funny how misunderstandings never go the customers way!
But back on the subject - we agreed stages of the building work and I paid on completion of each stage (which worked out roughly every month). We were all very happy with the project, especially me for getting what I expected and the builder who got paid in full!!!