2357 Calculating Costs for a New Build

Sano

As a guideline, 900 to 1500 euro per sqm

[QUOTE=Charles Joseph]Sano

As a guideline, 900 to 1500 euro per sqm[/QUOTE]

Thanks.

Following this last trip to Italy, and taking a good look at what property is out there, I am thinking now of moving away from the idea of a restoration to that of a custom built home on the assumption that I will be able to get a property built to my tastes and in the (probably vain) hope that there is less red tape involved going this route...

[QUOTE=Sano]Thanks.

Following this last trip to Italy, and taking a good look at what property is out there, I am thinking now of moving away from the idea of a restoration to that of a custom built home on the assumption that I will be able to get a property built to my tastes and in the (probably vain) hope that there is less red tape involved going this route...[/QUOTE]

Some people in the north east of Italy go for German kit homes they arrive by truck and whole thing is done and very well dusted in the shake of a lamb's tail...there are all manner of styles from Le Corbusier lookalikes to Austrian log cabins and quite a lot inbetween.

[QUOTE=sdoj]Some people in the north east of Italy go for German kit homes they arrive by truck and whole thing is done and very well dusted in the shake of a lamb's tail...there are all styles from Le Corbusier lookalikes to Austrian log cabins and quite a lot inbetween.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm....how solid are these kit homes?

How does the cost per square meter for a new build compare to that of a restoration job? Are there any reliable comparisons between the two?

[QUOTE=Sano]Hmmm....how solid are these kit homes?

How does the cost per square meter for a new build compare to that of a restoration job? Are there any reliable comparisons between the two?[/QUOTE]

As I said, they come in all shapes and sizes but as you probably know Germany's reputation is for over-engineered so I wouldn't worry about the quality and in any case they would need to comply with local buiding regs.
As regards expense, it is generally reckoned that kit homes are a fair way cheaper when you are comparing like for like. This because of the advantages of constructing in a factory environment rather than on a buiding site. So two questions what do you like and what do the local planners like. I personaly like: [url]http://www.huf-haus.de/en/[/url] but I will have to put that on hold until the premium bonds come up with the big one.

[QUOTE=sdoj]As I said, they come in all shapes and sizes but as you probably know Germany's reputation is for over-engineered so I wouldn't worry about the quality and in any case they would need to comply with local buiding regs.
As regards expense, it is generally reckoned that kit homes are a fair way cheaper when you are comparing like for like. This because of the advantages of constructing in a factory environment rather than on a buiding site. So two questions what do you like and what do the local planners like. I personaly like: [url]http://www.huf-haus.de/en/[/url] but I will have to put that on hold until the premium bonds come up with the big one.[/QUOTE]

They do look good some of them - I do want to go more traditional myself though so these would not work.

[QUOTE=Sano]They do look good some of them - I do want to go more traditional myself though so these would not work.[/QUOTE]

You can get more traditional too - will all be wood frame wih various choice of cladding but may look out of place in the environment where you are headed - where is that?

costs for prefabricated run from e700 per sq m ...add vat at 20 % ...add in planning permission costs...add in running in services to the site... and you always end up at e1000 per sq m minimum plus cost of site...

costs of new builds without prefab are as charles says but you have to add in cost of site...plus design and planning permision...

in all cases another added cost is getting the place declared as a habitation....

cost of habitable houses ... vary from e500 up per sq m... admittedly you dont get to choose the layout....

i have said this before ...but in terms of costs and eventula habitation in my opinion it goes like this

renovated house ready to live in cheapest

habitable house with jobs to do ...ie central heating...double glazing... maybe a bathroom or new kitchen second

new build... land with planning permision and then the build... usually about doble the costs of the previous two.. aprox... but you do get what you really want

ruin or non habitable very rural house... the most expensive... not only do you have to do a lot of dismantling ...the projection costs are high...the build costs ...if you use traditional methods are very high... but you get a traditional looking house with character...

the choice is as they say ...yours... we have bought both of the first two types.... and know lots about the second two....

I am sure you are right John when looking at a snapshot in time but quite a lot of people are interested in the longterm safety of their investment rather than short term gain. In your opinion are the people who are choosing options three and four allowing their hearts to rule their heads or is it that the properties they choose might have advantages in terms of location and aesthetics over many of the properties available with little or no work to be done and that in the long term these two factors will pay higher dividends? It has often been said that there are only so many stone built tumbledown ruins to renovate and they aren't allowing many new buildings in areas of outstanding beauty.
If we take the example of central Tuscany twenty odd years ago the fiscal arguments against buying a ruin on a hilltop with 360° views in favour of a modern (but not brand spanking new) appartment in one of the towns that was still allowing new developments would have been compelling in terms of cost for habitable living space but how would you say the relative values have faired in the interim?
I am not sure one way or the other and would be interested in your and other people's views.

Much easier to have 20:20 hindsight than to predict the future Aliena and so I am fairly sure in terms of what has happened in Tuscany centrale but I can't say what will happen in the mountains behind Carrara where I was once looking to buy...there are still lots of very cheap tumbledowns in that area but is there a good reason why they are cheap when places like Camaiore and Pietrasanta (very close) are so much more expensive...is it the weather perhaps or the remoteness from centres of employment? The latter shouldn't be a worry for most UK investors/retirees but the former could be. As you are prone to say Aliena - "I am genuinely interested".

No, I am not annoyed Aliena and as usual you are right - I did ask John to confirm the obvious which was silly of me. What has happened in central Tuscany over the past twenty years is not necessarily an indicator of the future market in other areas but then again, perhaps it is and I am genuinely interested in knowing what people think. I thought you use that phrase often but was wrong again...sorry.

i think the tuscany debate could well be over but in a sense that type of speculation is still available though not in italy...you will have to go further east

low priced italian properties are low priced not because some foreigner hasnt discovered the area ... basically because there are other alternatives generally more apreciated by the domestic population...

in general... and this is a generalistaion...no point posting a reply saying youn know someone different... italians prefer city apartments..or villas if they can afford it...reasonably close to shops...they like to shop everyday...though that is changing... reasonabl close to work ..or a chance of available work...schools/universities and hospitals... as a second home they buy seaside apartments...

therefore much of italy is available... with a huge and never ending supply of rural ruins... because anyone that owns these builds a new house next door and lives more cheaply and comfortably.... with more or less the same views...just a whole lot warmer and a whole lot cheaper to run...

so some may like to believe that a house or a region is cheap because its undiscovered... by whom...the 0.005 % of british buyers in the market have this affect... of raising regional prices .. hardly think so...

there are reasons... take for example ...ill skip the obvious choice ...clabria...each year aprox 6000 italian calabrian children are shipped off to other regions hospitals ...often as far north as milan for treatment... because they have no real specialist treatment centres there... the reasons why are diverse...essentially criminality and also political strenght... would a family with children given the choice choose a place with this sort of record... providing they actually knew anything about the place beyond the price differences...

another example is that italian has just given conscription into its armed forces...its funny to see adverts now like the uk ones saying the army is the life for you and ...people driving tanks and visiting lots of interesting places...they avoid kosova and the mid east in the adverts... but the interesting thing is that virtually all new volunteers for the army come from calabria... young people with no choice of work... its not so easy here to move cities and find work .... have found their chance to escape... and the army is better than no work..and no chance of it at home...

apart from this...there is infrastructure in general... work... criminality...most dont believe it but there are four regions here avoided like the plague... and just things like they know it is a flood region ... or its always freezing in winter... ie here in abruzzo no one given the choice unless its for skiing ever buys in the aquila region... just thirty minutes from us by car... but often 15 degrees colder in the winter ... afrom aquilla down to castel di sangro... its best to be an eskimo... after bolzano the coldest area in italy.. and say jsut on the local news today here in the province of teramo... a sad day for me ... in the commune of atri.... there is a big scandal about a refuse dump... now i can tell you that house prices there will be low...but you have to get used to the trucks and in the summer the smell

what has all this to do with house prices .. investment potential... well it just says that the italian market has topped out...where there are low prices its for lots of reasons... it almost seems that we as uk buyers treat italy as some sort of backward illiterate country if we think they havent realised the potential of their wealth and that we are the first to buy in a region and can somehow get that bargain... they have all read or heard of tuscany...they know the prices...they just know no one else will buy their rural ruins...or indeed village house halfway up a mountain... apart from some foreign fool ... and wuith such a small potential market to sell it on at a profit...no i would say... not much chance of beating bank interest rates... unless your very lucky...

there are however chances... you might well fall over something and get lucky it happens...but not often...and more often than not some agent here has heard of it ...bought it with friends...because legally they cannot buy and sell ... and is reselling at double the price.... but if you do happen to live here in italy ...you do hear of people in difficulties... that need to sell quick...at good prices but these are exceptional

so buy a home as a home....where ever your happy.. forget about uk housing markets... the minute you buy if you have already sold in the uk you are in a negative situation... you can never go back... make the most of it ... but forget tuscany...its already been done...

Not everyone is buying to make money, it's a case of finding a place that you like and that you can actually afford. If I had loads of money it would have been a different search but even then still may have ended up buying in the south, just bigger and better! :D Have you found that palazzo yet Aliena?

I Have to say that i really agreed with almost everything john said.
In all that you can read a lot of basic stuff that should help understand just how different is the real estate market here.
look,just down the road from me at the coast (40lms) there are "out of the box "housing developments,latest insulation techniques,quite nicely built small condominiums max three floors,underground garages /cantine, state of art service roads,public illumination,sidewalks,five mins from state road,motoway,railroad,shopping,seaside,services and facilities of all kinds,schools,hospitals,ASDL lines,etc etc.In the price range 250.000/450.000 one can buy one of these and you're looking at appartments for families say 4 people( you can even choose a lot of the finishing materials yourself kind of ceramics/tiles/sanitary etc.THATS what people round here want nowadays.
NOW,where i live,40 kms inland at 500metres on sea level,nearest neighbour 2.5 kms,nearest fresh milk unless cow,9kms one way,no shops,heavy snow falls ,nearest infant school 5 kms,nearest senior school (decent) 30+ kms,decent hospital (nearest 50kms)no trains,no highways,no factories,very few jobs,no ASDL,BUT on the other hand lot of peace and quiet,no crime,little immigration.....
On a general rule of thumb round here a largish housebought as a ruin and restored decently is going to cost (without pools and all that stuff) probably little change from Euro 600.000.The ONLY potential futiure buyers would probably be foreigners.At the current state of the market you'd be lucky to sell it and get back what it actually cost you and thats the bottom line.
HERE IS THE RECIPE FOR BUYING/RESTORING.
25% LOVE. ( Without that why bother going thru..)
25% MADNESS ( without which you'd never do it..)
50% MONEY ( Without which you don't make it...)
don't know what else to add...

[quote=Sebastiano]
HERE IS THE RECIPE FOR BUYING/RESTORING.
25% LOVE. ( Without that why bother going thru..)
25% MADNESS ( without which you'd never do it..)
50% MONEY ( Without which you don't make it...)
don't know what else to add...[/quote]

Sounds good to me, maybe add patients and stamina! :D

[QUOTE=Aliena]Is that intensive care patients?? ;)

:) :)[/QUOTE]
naturalmente.

Definitely intensive care patients if, like my husband you intend to get up on the roof yourself. I just hope to god that if he falls off he doesn't manage to fall down the well in the process! :D

Actually come to think of it at least he could have a good look at the condition while he's down there as I'm sure that would be on his to do list!!

Thanks for all the info.

I am surprised that a new build would cost more than some of the other options listed, but at the same time I am thinking that it might be easier to find a plot of land in an area I am interested in than finding a property within my price range. However, if planning permission is a problem this idea might have to be shelved.

[QUOTE=Sano]Thanks for all the info.

I am surprised that a new build would cost more than some of the other options listed, but at the same time I am thinking that it might be easier to find a plot of land in an area I am interested in than finding a property within my price range. However, if planning permission is a problem this idea might have to be shelved.[/QUOTE]
The fact is that it's not actually a question of finding a pleasant plot of land and applying for building permission.For example in this area that just wouldn't be granted as the whole area is "designated" for agricultural use so no new build,except for some areas around some local towns where there has been a decision to allow for minimal expansion of the town.
Another "hidden" but very heavy tax is the Beccalossi this is applied to new builds ,i'm sure Charles Joseph could fill you in on the details.
However a resonable alternative does exist it happens that one may find a "site"ie. there was a house there but it's fallen down (neglect/abandon/earthquakes etc) If the preexistant house is still featured on the land maps and even better there could be photos in the local comune
of how it was etc. In this case you could build ostensibly abrand new house,pay relatively little for the site,and you wouldn't be liable for new build tax either.The only thing is that the comune would probably insist that it were rebuilt more or less as it was,you would not be allowed to change the cubic metres or general size,and if it had been a stone house you'd have to rebuild it as such .I know people who just done this successfully and whilst i don't know all their business they now have a brand new house 3 bed-3 bath and the rest in keeping ,for around E.400.000,00 it looks old but has all mod coms and is anti sismic.Anyway thats a serious suggestion and it's a bit nicer than a German lager hut or stuff like that-no? the only problem is there isn't a ruin with features for the missus to "fall in luv with" which could be a big problem.........