In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=umbriabuyer]When we purchased our property in Umbria the estate agent said that, for a new central heating system, we would not be able to use an oil-fired one because they are now illegal (because "gas is more environmently friendly" - which, by the way, I don't agree with). Is this true?[/QUOTE]
I would suggest that the word 'illegal' can cover a multitude of things in Italy. Whilst we could argue about the environmental benefits of gas and oil etc. It appears to me that in Italy, it is governed by the efficiency of the boilers. Gas and wood boilers being more efficient than oil. Also issues of local pollution as Adriatica says may take priority over the global effects of a particular fuel.
Energy in Italy is expensive. As Adriatica says, gas tends to be cheaper, but personally, I would see no other direction for even gas prices than a sharp upward trend. In the UK we are already seeing this and we produce 95% of our own gas. Italy imports it, so has no control over pricing.
Wood fueled boilers are very common in Italy. These either take the form of log burners or pellets. Most of this is grown locally, reducing emmissions due to transportation. In addition, it is grown using fast growing crops which grow on a rotational basis. This means it is virtually carbon neutral. (You grow a tree absorbing carbon, you burn a tree releasing carbon, you grow a tree absorbing carbon etc............)
Due to the cost of energy in Italy, renewables such as small scale wind generation, solar water heating and geothermal heat pumps become economically viable. All worth investigating if you've got to have a new system.
One other thing which doesn't seem to have been discussed here is the use of micro CHP (combined heating and power) Where you use the gas to run a generator and then use the heat produced for hot water and heating. These are a relatively new technology at this small size, but if you are in Italy full time (ie: run the system for more than 2000hrs a year) they can save a considerable amount of money and be a lot more energy efficient.
Andy
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I like the sound of the micro chp, in sheffield they had a large scale scheme running, they were always shouting about it's efficiency. Ohh, when looking into oil heating here, they expect you to pay close to petrol station prices for your diesel...
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=andy s]Wood fueled boilers are very common in Italy. These either take the form of log burners or pellets. Most of this is grown locally, reducing emmissions due to transportation. In addition, it is grown using fast growing crops which grow on a rotational basis. This means it is virtually carbon neutral. (You grow a tree absorbing carbon, you burn a tree releasing carbon, you grow a tree absorbing carbon etc............)
Due to the cost of energy in Italy, renewables such as small scale wind generation, solar water heating and geothermal heat pumps become economically viable. All worth investigating if you've got to have a new system.
One other thing which doesn't seem to have been discussed here is the use of micro CHP (combined heating and power) Where you use the gas to run a generator and then use the heat produced for hot water and heating. These are a relatively new technology at this small size, but if you are in Italy full time (ie: run the system for more than 2000hrs a year) they can save a considerable amount of money and be a lot more energy efficient.
Andy[/QUOTE]
1) Are you sure about wood burning being emission neutral...I certainly hope so I like very much the well managed "faggio" forests in Italy where they often use a copsing technique so the logs are just right size. However green people often tell me that it is bad bad bad.
2) wind and sun has to be used more in Italy ... unlike our blightey Italy has beautiful sunny days in the coldest months ... today for example
3) I remember several sixties council blocks along the Thames used to have hot water and central heating derived from the cooling waters of the power station which is now the Tate Modern - so perhaps CHP not such a new concept but I am sure you will give me good technical reasons why the Thame-side project was not truly CHP.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=sdoj]1) Are you sure about wood burning being emission neutral...I certainly hope so I like very much the well managed "faggio" forests in Italy where they often use a copsing technique so the logs are just right size. However green people often tell me that it is bad bad bad.
2) wind and sun has to be used more in Italy ... unlike our blightey Italy has beautiful sunny days in the coldest months ... today for example
3) I remember several sixties council blocks along the Thames used to have hot water and central heating derived from the cooling waters of the power station which is now the Tate Modern - so perhaps CHP not such a new concept but I am sure you will give me good technical reasons why the Thame-side project was not truly CHP.[/QUOTE]
1) Is it carbon neutral? Look here - [url]http://www.est.org.uk/myhome/generating/types/biomass/[/url] Obviously ANY fuel has an impact, due to the energy used in its distribution. That said, wood tends to be produced far more locally than any other fuel.
2) Couldn't agree more. That said, the wrong type of sun (He says sounding like British Rail) is not suitable. In summer, the sun is far more intense, which is why it's hotter. In winter, it's nice, but at a low altitude and less intense.
3) In fact that is exactly what CHP is. It's still used in Southwark and many other places. In fact Southampton used it with a geothermal aquifier as well. The point I was making was that 'micro' CHP is a relatively new technology. EU currently have a working group for this. I have attached a link to their brief description.
[url]http://www.cogen.org/Downloadables/Publications/FactSheet_MicroCHP_UK.pdf[/url]
Oh, and her's another on GSHP [url]http://www.est.org.uk/myhome/generating/types/groundsource/[/url]
Facts, facts, facts
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 02/09/2006 - 08:26In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=andy s]1) Is it carbon neutral? Look here - [url]http://www.est.org.uk/myhome/generating/types/biomass/[/url] Obviously ANY fuel has an impact, due to the energy used in its distribution. That said, wood tends to be produced far more locally than any other fuel.
2) Couldn't agree more. That said, the wrong type of sun (He says sounding like British Rail) is not suitable. In summer, the sun is far more intense, which is why it's hotter. In winter, it's nice, but at a low altitude and less intense.
3) In fact that is exactly what CHP is. It's still used in Southwark and many other places. In fact Southampton used it with a geothermal aquifier as well. The point I was making was that 'micro' CHP is a relatively new technology. EU currently have a working group for this. I have attached a link to their brief description.
[url]http://www.cogen.org/Downloadables/Publications/FactSheet_MicroCHP_UK.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]
Hey Andy you are good... you ARE very very good. A sort of sensible, practical Eco Warrior from the Charles Joseph school of debating.
Just one thing though, regarding wrong type of sun, Italy is further south than Britain and has more sunny days. Surely there has to be a point on the globe where, as you get closer to the equator, winter sunshine becomes equivalent to Lake District summer sunshine. Can you tell me where that point is?
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Go to the middle bit of the globe and go up a bit!
I will pull out a comparison between UK and Italy, but in terms of producing energy, they are not that different.
Andy
Question for Andy
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 02/09/2006 - 11:54In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Hi Andy.
Firstly your knowledge that you share openly here and your description of technological matter is first class I thank you for all of it, very, very interesting.
I have been a heating engineer all my life, lots of practical and minor technical but to hear you explain this side of it, its the best I have heard.
Anyway I want to ask your opinion on this, if it works, happens and is genuine, could be very good for somewhere like Italy. You may already have heard about it.-
( MAGENN ROTATING ENERGY). Introducing a floating air rotor system, they say they plan to introduce a 4kw one before the end of this year, they also say it will be cheaper than enything already on the market.
If you are not aware of it you will find it through google.
Thank you Cjoe
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=C-Joe]Hi Andy.
Firstly your knowledge that you share openly here and your description of technological matter is first class I thank you for all of it, very, very interesting.
I have been a heating engineer all my life, lots of practical and minor technical but to hear you explain this side of it, its the best I have heard.
Anyway I want to ask your opinion on this, if it works, happens and is genuine, could be very good for somewhere like Italy. You may already have heard about it.-
( MAGENN ROTATING ENERGY). Introducing a floating air rotor system, they say they plan to introduce a 4kw one before the end of this year, they also say it will be cheaper than enything already on the market.
If you are not aware of it you will find it through google.
Thank you Cjoe[/QUOTE]
Looking at it, there is no reason why it wouldn't work and do exactly what it says on the tin. It's construction is also a lot less complex than a standard wind turbine.
There are a few problems I can see, which I am sure is why it is still at the experimental stage. First, how is it anchored/stabilised? Wind speeds can regularly have gusts around 50mph and storm winds can be consistently higher than this. The last thing i would want is to wake up and find my very expensive turbine is currently somewhere over greece or has crashed into my roof as it swung on its anchors. Secondly, and probably more importantly, wind power is a very mature market and trying to break into it is difficult. One of the issues is with a small scale manufacturer in the states, are spares/servicing available etc.
That said, we all laughed at people carrying round briefcase sized mobile phones! Technologies develop. New technologies emerge. Keep an eye on it, see what comes out. The one piece of advice I would always give is make sure that you can maintain what you buy, otherwise it may end up as a very expensive balloon/talking point.
Andy
actually i think this is true in certain areas... for example there are between thirty and forty days each year where all traffic or sometimes alternate year traffic is allowed into the cities.... in the north especially but lots of italian cities have high levels of pollution...caused by their dependance on heavy oils ... so i presume you are caught up in one of these areas... the commune will be able to assure you though...
as regards gas versus oil in an economic sense the oil fired systems are by far the most expensive here...