3989 Foreign Construction Crew

Personally - I would always use local 'artisans' - if you bring in outside labour you run the risk of alienating the locals, which could make life difficult for you in the longer run. [complaints to the commune, etc]

Anyway - you should support the local economy wherever possible.

[QUOTE=alan haynes]Anyway - you should support the local economy wherever possible.[/QUOTE]

...which in many cases now will also be a team of Poles or other East European labourers anyway.

Bring in your own building team whether they are Poles or even Italians from the next village and you are likely to have no end of troubles.

apart from that.... i would think that for a start no project manager of the restoration will employ balck labour ...so first you need to get the building crew leaglly into italy...you then have to sort out the fact that you will most probably have to set up a company to employ them.... pay their health care and taxes... if not they can as independant workers register for vat and tax themselves whilst working here... after getting their permissions to stay... you might then have to employ a polish architect to draw up your plans and so on and so on....

one thing for sure you will be pleased to hear is that renovation and material costs here are very high ... ie for a a sort of normal restoration project it will be in the region of e1500 per sq m and the regulations are to die for .... touch a wall without permission and several commune police men will be down on you.... so hopefully the farmhouse does not require too much work or is too big

so polish work crews i would think will be the least of your worries....there is a major back lash already here against people using cheap foreign labour and in reallity to do anything legally here you will not have that choice

...excuse me? Euro 1,500 per sqm? I have done what every newbie does and trolled this website to try and get a handle on reno costs but this is insanity.
I thought that Abruzzo was a poor region.

I can import a Polish worker who will be very pleased to earn Euro 6 per hour. My understanding from this web site is that local Italian labour asks Euro 22 per hour. You do the math.

I have no desire to create ill will in my new community but I also need to get the job done on a tight budget. Not to mention the fact (as Neil observed) the local contractors will more than likely be hiring Eastern European labourers anyway. I just happen to speak their language and can go to the source.

Here's my thought by the way. Hire a local, legal Architecht who is obliging and split the difference on the savings. ie He pockets half of the savings both on our project and for that matter future projects should he desire to retain the team again in the future. We save the other half.

Any takers out there? Please send me a PM and we can talk.

you are under a funny mis conception that abruzzo is a poor region... i would say you just have to drive into pescara, teramo or chieti on any day of the week look at the cars around, the new buildings and the way people dress and you might well change your mind... with virtually full employment ...

you might well quote what a builder earns... but much like when you take your car into the garage what the mechanic earns has very little to do with what you are charged...

so why does it cost this much... basic build work without any IVA or consents in the planning line... saftey plans and registration of the work once completed will cost a lot less

a local with local friends might well be able to do things this way and basically because he will most probably never sell it during his life time will in fact have no problems ... however with plans of revaluing the whole house stock for tax purposes within say the next five years or so... each house will be visted by an official from the commune and checked against their paper work ... so that could eventually turn up problems

the other point is that the italian government is desperately short of tax revenue... its a well known fact here that there are some building companies employing illegal labour... i stress some because the practice is not so widespread and accepted as some would lead you to believe... they have just had an amnesty here and there are half a million new tax paying registered workers... often eastern european getting payed the right wage and qualified... and the government via the customs police are looking to up their revenue and building work being very hard to hide is one of the most targeted check areas....

... each commune in italy has its own funny planning regulations... little variations on the national regs... each planning application has to be submitted with the name of the building company and the director of the works who will be responsible for many of the oddities of life here in italy... saftey plans... obtaining the geological surveys and various other little bits and pieces that add to the cost of a build here... like the earthquake regulations pertinent to virtually 90 per cent of italy....

if you do find some sort of person to submit plans and sign to say he will manage the project in the way you suggest then i would also suggest to you that he will be more than prepared to lead up around and down the garden path ... take your money and leave you out to dry... with most probably a half finished house and the commune , guardia finanza and the immigration police all after a slice of you and your home...

apart from that abruzzo has quite enough problems already in the sense of people arriving to make a quick penny or two by circumnavigating the local laws and setting up as whatever they want to be ... if you want to do things right ...good luck to you.. if you suggest paying anybody a wage of e6.00 per hour to do this sort of work is fine ...i would come back to you and say i find that almost the worst part of your plans.... hopefully you will soon find that regulations have caught up in poland soon and instead of abruzzo you will hopefully trot off to Albania

Dear Adriatica,

Ouch. No need to get nasty (your Albania comment was a little off darling)

Looks like I have touched a nerve.

I am afraid you are also operating under a misconception. Poland is now part of the EU. What I am proposing is 100% legal and happening all over Western Europe at this very moment. Legally. Try to get a plumber in Paris. Odds are his surname will be Kowalski. This fact by the way has not escaped your Italian contracting and renovating breathern. My father just renovated his home in Tuscany and half of his crew were Poles. They did a great job too. All of this still doesn't necessarily make my idea a good idea though and that was the movitivation behind my original post.

You though have oddly enough offered me some reassurance. If as you point out, the region is not poor then I should have no concern about legally importing foreign workers to suppport a legal, tax paying Italian architecht.

Don't get me wrong. I have never met a nicer bunch of people, living in a more beautiful place in the world than I have in Abruzzo. Sincerely. I liked the place so much I want to live there and certainly don't want to get off on the wrong foot with anyone.

I just have a small budget for renovation and a low tolerance for a bad deal when I know I can do better.

Smiles.

Peter

...any legal, qualified Italian architects who are interested in taking this discussion off-line are welcome to contact me at [email]peterabruzzo@gmail.com[/email]

Hi
I am working with an estate agency in Abruzzo and I help them with their foreign customers. I think that you have to ask to the custom service in Pescara because Poland belongs to the European community. Maybe only the renovation planning has to be done by an Italian architect or engineer because Italy does not recognize all foreign degrees

Adriatica, usefully, does the doom and gloom scenarios for this forum. However, I think your assertion that "Poland is EU" is a bit off mark. In Italy being "EU" doesn't really mean anything - as far as I follow the regualtions approved by "member states", the "Polish plumber" is free to plumb in the UK, but not in most other "member states".
Polish workmen are famed for their diligence and aptitude - if you are willing and able to research the permits which they may require to work here - go for them!! You can then preen yourself as a person helping Prodi's liberalisation. I'm not being sarcastic here, I have various Italian friends who jump through considerable consular hoops to get their Polish workmen AOK, and others who enjoy the efforts of illegal Russians - the Italian pampered trades union protected builders have to be dragged kicking and screaming into this century.
You do not have to nominate the contractor when you make your application to the comune.
Go for it - Poles are respected here - who was the last Pope!!

[QUOTE=PeterAbruzzo]...excuse me? Euro 1,500 per sqm? I have done what every newbie does and trolled this website to try and get a handle on reno costs but this is insanity.
I thought that Abruzzo was a poor region.

I can import a Polish worker who will be very pleased to earn Euro 6 per hour. My understanding from this web site is that local Italian labour asks Euro 22 per hour. You do the math.

I have no desire to create ill will in my new community but I also need to get the job done on a tight budget. Not to mention the fact (as Neil observed) the local contractors will more than likely be hiring Eastern European labourers anyway. I just happen to speak their language and can go to the source.

Here's my thought by the way. Hire a local, legal Architecht who is obliging and split the difference on the savings. ie He pockets half of the savings both on our project and for that matter future projects should he desire to retain the team again in the future. We save the other half.

Any takers out there? Please send me a PM and we can talk.[/QUOTE]

I'm just having some more works done.The workers are excellent and they're Rumanian.However i told them if they are not insured (which means the national state system ) -no work.I also require that they make an invoice because i can recuperate VAT,or use the VAT credit against direct taxation which is high here.As we recently had an inspection by the work inspectorate here ( objective: looking for uninsured workers) they informed me that should they ever find any the fine is Euro 50.000,00 plus back dated SS.payments from the january of the year in which this is found..etc etc.The bottom line is i'm paying 17,00 per hour for the labourers and 20,00 for the master builder.
There is no way i would undertake building work with black labour it's just too risky.As faras this idea of architects etc he would have to (probably) set up a registered building company make the requests to bring in these Poles,hire and insure them and low and behold you're back to paying 17-22 euro per hour!

Dear Relaxed and Sebastiano,

Thank you both for your replies.

We are working with a lawyer to find the best, legal way to do what I have proposed. I am beginning to worry though that you may be right and that the cost would put us back at Euro 22 by the time we ahered to all of the local laws etc.

Let me rephrase my original question. What is the best way to cut down on the high cost of renovating a house in Italy?

Paying Euro 1,500 per square meter for renovation is simply not an option.

Peter

[LEFT]peter

people might suggest doom and gloom...i tend to prefer reallity of italain costs...i am not saying i agree with them

i despair over the stupidities here of minimm charges for profesional help... costs that make unatractive the efforts of people to go by the law...

i know people that work for building companies here that hardly get a wage to survive on and yet the government takes such a chunk...or charges such a massive cut of the wage that they earn to make it almost impossible for anyone to progress here in a legal manner...

they work all week for a company and then have to do cash jobs evenings and weekends to survive.... skilled craftsment that in england if they worked like they do here would be millionaires almost...

so my best advice would be buy a property that is already structually sound...give up on ruins that the base price is low... restructured or habitable houses here run from around e500 per sq metre.. the option then is to get a less costly planning applicartion in...say a dIA for more cosmetic work and then use your crew in that sense... i actually do not see why you cannot keep them as registered in Poland and pay their wages in that sense as a foreign set of self employed labourers working here

but i cannot see any progresion in doing other work with them apart from on your own house here in italy

hopefully after my agressive doom and gloom suggestions this might give you some ideas to work on[/LEFT]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]Peter

What is stopping you doing work yourself?I know you can't go on scaffolding but some of the costly jobs like pointing walls,plastering, garden landscaping can all be done yourself.This is what we are doing as we cannot spend 1,500 euros a square meter on our house!Spent 2 weeks slowly chipping off layers of cement from the beautiful old stone columns that were covered in 12th century graffiti.Hate to think the charge for a builder to do this.We also plan to clean the stones ourselves with a wire brush and water all time consuming.

It would cost us more than the house would ever sell for even with John's hoards of Romans buying country properties! If you have friends that will help in return for food and board then you can use them!Or children even,grannies?

By the way anyone know if those scaffolding towers you can buy in Castorama can be used by any old bod?They do a hire service too.

Perhaps us Abruzzezes should form a building circle like a baby sitting circle!

Ciao[/SIZE][/FONT]

Now we're getting somewhere! Thanks for the advice Adriatica.

We actually own a small company here in Poland. Our hope is to purchase the house on the company books and run the costs of reno, maitenance etc through the company so that we can reclaim VAT and so forth. I like your idea of keeping the workers registered in Poland in our company and bringing them into Italy as a foreign set of self employed labourers. We will definitely look into this.

Finally - the house we are trying to close on is structurally sound and liveable so most of what we need immediately is cosmetic (hopefully removing stucco from the exterior qualifies as cosmetic).

Ciao. Off to my second Italian lesson.

Peter

Manopello,

Excellent advice. The only thing really stopping me is know-how but I can certainly work on fixing that.

Peter

[LEFT]Peter

Normally in Italy you cannot just import builders from another country without completing certain formalities such as registering them with the cassa edile, the camera di commercio and pay your relevant fees and taxes etc.

I suggest you check the legislation and cross border agreements between EEC Member states to see what you are allowed to do.

Also, cash jobs to unregistered and uninsured cheap labour can spell disaster.[/LEFT]

Thought that I would add one more post to this chain.

My brash talk about being able to "import Polish workers" is apparently a double-edged sword. Just saw a feature on BBC this morning about what a huge crisis the exodus of skilled workers has become here in Poland.

Whole villages and towns in Poland apparently are losing their entire stock of skilled workers who are in unison making a bee-line for better paid jobs in Western Europe. While that may be a good thing for employers in Western countries (and with any luck renovators like me in Itlay), it is making life tough for many here in Poland. What I was hoping to save on labour costs in Italy may turn out to be spent on higher costs of employing the increasingly scarce local labour force closer to home in Warsaw !

Maybe Adriatica was onto something regarding hiring in Albania!

There is no such thing as a free lunch I guess.

Peter

[LEFT]not so sure

big scandal here the other day... polish workers bussed into to what are effectively farm slave camps...

before leaving poland a promise of 40 hr weeks and hourly rate of e5... reallity guarded camps..forced to work 15 hours per day and wage... actually can you call it that e2 per hour... minus expenses...

apparentley relatives complained that some of their loved ones were being held prisoner and forced to work.. wonderful things mobile phones and via the polish embassy an investigation started... recently ..well this week several farmers and a couple of organised crime people were arrested

so be careful what you pay your work crew and how you treat them...[/LEFT]

Adriatica,
I have heard reports of similar mistreatment. Disgusting.

I am all for paying people a living wage and treating them fairly. The profiteering that is going on amongst some companies in Western Europe is criminal and inexcusable.

Peter

I couldn't help smiling when I read this post for walking around our little hamlet where so many properties are being restored, in between the hammering and drone of the cement mixers, you don't hear a word of Italian, it's all either Polish or what I assume is Albanian. Sure, the guys managing the jobs are Italian but all the work is being done by Poles or Albanesi.

[LEFT]peter

just to make clear to anyone reading the thread...it wasnt a dig at you...just a recent and what seemed relevant comment... and i agree with your sentiments...

today actually the prodi governement has just given permssion for another 350,000 new immigrants... i am sure a lot of these will be from eastern european countries and unlike many people that live here i actually find the thought of Italy being diluted a bit by foreign immigrant families a welcome sign that at last italy is joining the real world... and instead of paying them peanuts on the black economy and taking advantage of often hard working family people they are allowing them to earn a just wage for a just days work... rarely i applaud prodi.... hopefully it will all work well and actually be carried out[/LEFT]

Thanks for the note Adriatica. It did at the time feel a bit like a dig but I understand your POV, appreciate your advice and no hard feelings whatsoever!

The whole issue is very controversial from all angles. If you are in Poland it is sad to see so many good people leave (and usually it is just the motivated ones who do). If you are in a receiving country then it must seem at times that you are being invaded by economic opportunists.

I can assure anyone reading this chain though that 99% of the Poles leaving their country for these jobs are decent, hard-working family people (as Adriatica pointed out) who are just looking for a chance to better their lives and their children's prospects. Very, very few are looking for a free ride. It is sad though when you read stories about often University educated people who find that their best opportunity is to take a cashier's job far away from friends and family at Tesco's in the UK by way of example. National unemployment here is 18% and many people have little in the way of better options.

Just for the record - I am North American born and raised. The only reason I am living in Poland frankly is that at a point in time I was also looking for new opportunities as well!

At the risk of starting to rant and rave though I fully agree with you that Western Europe needs a kick in the pants. I find it the height of stupidity when I read about striking workers in France, Germany or elsewhere demanding 35 hour work-weeks and employment guarantees etc etc. You don't need to travel far in this world to realise that what they are demanding as God given rights are simply just luxuries that most of the world scratches their head at with wonder. If Prodi is helping to change this mentality in Italy then good for him. It can only help the country long term. Water always finds it's level.

"Na zdrowie" as we say here in Warsaw.

Peter

I take another view on this[which shouldn't surprise anyone]

I drive hgv's, we are the handlers for another company that handle goods for
shipping from the uk, to Ireland, which means we have lorries coming into
our depo from all over europe.

the german lorries have germain drivers, the turkish have turkish the french,
french. and so on danish,italians, spanish ect.

The growing number of Irish lorries [these are the ones that do the actual
shipping across the waters] don't have irish drivers,and we are seeing more
english lorries, also with polish and slavinians.

We are told there is a shortage of hgv drivers!! which is hard to believe,but
what we are actually seeing is these drivers far to often, which is not a
crass statement, but is a legal reality.
you see there are driving laws and these are not just being flouted, but
totally ignored.
its ok with me,if anyone moves to try to make a better life for themselvs,but
thats not what is really happening, they are working here only for as long as
they can get enough money to return home and set up something there.

most even live in there employers lorries, so are not even giving back to
the economy that pays them!

we now have slovenian hauledge companies working over here, its economically impossible for them to do it, unless they are flouting ALL working
laws and responsibilities to tax and national insurance.

so how is this good? the standard of living that so many fathers and grandfathers worked hard for, is being threatened.

yes i believe in fair trading, it has to be fair for both sides. making a quick
buck is something different

Dear Giovanni,

Trust me. None of these people are making a quick buck. They are being paid far less than the average worker in your company/industry. Any sensible company in Italy (Ireland or elsewhere) would have no other incentive to hire them.

And yes they do sleep in their lorries. I bet they also never eat out either and suport the local restaurants. Most can't afford to sleep or eat anywhere else. Same holds true for construction crews by the way. Any Polish crew I have ever encountered sleeps on-site until the job is done. It is dirty, poorly paid work that I wouldn't want to do but certainly wouldn't hold against a hard working person who is prepared to do what is necessary to support their family.

By the way (and please trust me that this is not meant to piss you off), as a Canadian I know tons of Italian people in Toronto who's familys left Italy post war in search of better lives in Canada. They came to my country, did the shitty jobs, struggled and worked their asses off to try to make better lives for their children. A testament to their hard work and success is that there is now a direct flight from Toronto to Pescara as they and their children/grandchildren return to the homeland.

Your beef with the legal aspects within your industry is fair and not something I know enough about to comment upon. Trust me though. A quick buck is not so quick when all it means is that you can return home and feed your kids or put them in school.

Peter

[QUOTE=giovanni]...We are told there is a shortage of hgv drivers!! which is hard to believe...[/QUOTE]
I don't know if there's really a shortage of HGV drivers, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is. I suspect that being a lorry driver comes low on the list of "jobs I'd like to do" for many people. It's not absolutely the last thing I'd consider if I needed work, but it sure ain't the first.

Similar stories with other trades. Plumbing is a good example. A good living to be made if you're a plumber in most parts of the country and a real killing in some places, but not many people are enthusiastic about taking up a (literally) mucky trade and that's all you need for a skill shortage to develop.

Al

[QUOTE=PeterAbruzzo]Dear Giovanni,

Trust me. None of these people are making a quick buck. They are being paid far less than the average worker in your company/industry. Any sensible company in Italy (Ireland or elsewhere) would have no other incentive to hire them.

And yes they do sleep in their lorries. I bet they also never eat out either and suport the local restaurants. Most can't afford to sleep or eat anywhere else. Same holds true for construction crews by the way. Any Polish crew I have ever encountered sleeps on-site until the job is done. It is dirty, poorly paid work that I wouldn't want to do but certainly wouldn't hold against a hard working person who is prepared to do what is necessary to support their family.

By the way (and please trust me that this is not meant to piss you off), as a Canadian I know tons of Italian people in Toronto who's familys left Italy post war in search of better lives in Canada. They came to my country, did the shitty jobs, struggled and worked their asses off to try to make better lives for their children. A testament to their hard work and success is that there is now a direct flight from Toronto to Pescara as they and their children/grandchildren return to the homeland.

Your beef with the legal aspects within your industry is fair and not something I know enough about to comment upon. Trust me though. A quick buck is not so quick when all it means is that you can return home and feed your kids or put them in school.

Peter[/QUOTE]

sorry peter, had to rewite my original post,[thunder /lighting power cut]
so did it in a wee hurry, and it didn't come across as good second time round

Totally understand the sentiment regarding Italians in canada, i could have
been one.

yet what i am talking about is the illigality that are accuring,and your
response talks about the entire family up rooting and staying in the
adopted country, working, paying taxes, living in accomadation, you know
actually giving to that countries economy.

Obviously my response is based on the situation in the uk, and i wouldn't
call hgv driving or the construction industry shitty, not today anyroad,as for
the money, well being able to send in excess of 25k back to the homeland
in 1 year! whilst you are still able to eat and fly back for a couple of 2 week
breaks a year REAL hardship thats on par with the immigrant workers of the
50/60s.

like i said, these workers have no intentions to stay put, you will not see a
new community arise from their staying here. their intentions are to return
home as soon as possible, 1 or 2 or 3 years.

"construction industry" same applies here.
the money is great, just go to any site in london and you will see that 1000s
of them are from all over europe. again nothing wrong with that.
but they are all subbies and are on cis cards 4 or maybe 5.
yes they even pay tax at 18% which is all well and good if you earn 20k
a year, but they do not they earn double that, and after a year they move
on to a different area, so that they are not chased for the 4 or5k they owe
in taxes.

ok, i blame the greedy companies who know that they have cheap workers,
but thats because they do not get holiday pay,sick pay and the company
does not pay ni contributions.

but it is not poorly paid or shitty... now in Italy it may be different, hell it
must be different yes i met a slovakian a few years back on the beach, he
was the lifesaver, he had a degree and was trying to get to england or the
usa, but could not get a visa. thats another story.

[QUOTE=AllanMason]I don't know if there's really a shortage of HGV drivers, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is. I suspect that being a lorry driver comes low on the list of "jobs I'd like to do" for many people. It's not absolutely the last thing I'd consider if I needed work, but it sure ain't the first.

Similar stories with other trades. Plumbing is a good example. A good living to be made if you're a plumber in most parts of the country and a real killing in some places, but not many people are enthusiastic about taking up a (literally) mucky trade and that's all you need for a skill shortage to develop.

Al[/QUOTE]

sorry but you are mistaken. there is a plumbers shortage, it goes back to the
early 80s when apprentices stopped being taken on. as people have retired
the numbers are not there to replace them.

As for the driving, EVERYONE TO THEIR OWN. but i am sure glad i don't work
in an office anymore, only wish i had got out earlier.

[quote=AllanMason]I don't know if there's really a shortage of HGV drivers, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is. I suspect that being a lorry driver comes low on the list of "jobs I'd like to do" for many people. It's not absolutely the last thing I'd consider if I needed work, but it sure ain't the first.

Similar stories with other trades. Plumbing is a good example. A good living to be made if you're a plumber in most parts of the country and a real killing in some places, but not many people are enthusiastic about taking up a (literally) mucky trade and that's all you need for a skill shortage to develop.

Al[/quote]

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]Think you will find that is not true about the plumbing trade. My son has just completed his NVQ as an apprentice but there is a complete shortage of apprenticeships. It was really difficult to find a company and that is in the South East. During his apprenticeship he continued to look for another company or self employed plumber, due to problems with the company he was with but none prepared to give day release. He stayed with the company but is still looking as he wants to do his gas and his company doesn't do gas. [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black][/COLOR] [/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]There was a TV prog a few years back where many kids had been looking for over two years and if an apprenticeship came up thousands would apply for just the one job. [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black][/COLOR] [/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]Loads of kids are willing.[/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]

[LEFT][quote=PeterAbruzzo]Thought that I would add one more post to this chain.

My brash talk about being able to "import Polish workers" is apparently a double-edged sword. Just saw a feature on BBC this morning about what a huge crisis the exodus of skilled workers has become here in Poland.

Whole villages and towns in Poland apparently are losing their entire stock of skilled workers who are in unison making a bee-line for better paid jobs in Western Europe. While that may be a good thing for employers in Western countries (and with any luck renovators like me in Itlay), it is making life tough for many here in Poland.[/quote][/LEFT]

[LEFT][FONT=Arial]Mhmm. I think I’ll start importing French labour to Poland:cool: [/FONT][/LEFT]

I think one of the main problems for kids who want training in what is seen as manual/blue collar work is the schools.

Most schools now are so results driven they want to show that 90 whatever % of their pupils go on to university that they have forgotten we all need plumbers, builders etc and just do not offer any courses that would be applicable to these youngsters.

thus when kids who have real manual skills leave school they have nothing to show for their time and are deemed worthless.

I don't know if the YTS scheme is still in place but for many of my generation these were where they learnt a real trade.

There is nothing wrong with being a bricky, plumber or yes EVEN AN HGV DRIVER as long as a decent living can be earned and people get a modicum of satisfaction from their job.

the messages young people are getting is you have to go to uni and earn zillions to be happy or else face a life of benefits. Perhaps if we all were more positive about blue collar work more people would be happy to earn an honest crust and the huge benefits bill would be substantially reduced.

Right, thats my Sunday afternoon rant. Off to sort out the Yorkshire puddings - can we still call them that or is that politically incorrect now!!

Jackie

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]It's a good rant Jackie because it's true. My son loves being a plumber but society does make him feel that he is not good enough sometimes.[/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]Even his NVQ course put pressure on him to pass key skills in English which considering he has inherited my dyslexifickle is a tough one to achieve and just made him feel even worse about himself. [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]He's a b****y good plumber though! :) [/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]

Yeah how odd.......

Especially seeing as in central London and such being a plumber or sparky is like having a license to print money......in the words of my father,hehe.

Damn these jobs are very well paid compared to a lot of office work and such, and its amazing that people give more admiration to pen pushing jobs......

A dear friend died before i left,he was a fantastic plumber and stove installer, his son went to London for a while working as a gas installer, then when his dad died he came back to Cornwall, and followed his fathers footsteps.

Anyone else from Kernow feel free to say hi anytime!

Argas dynerg!

Zac

Did I not read - at least a year ago - that a UK University was offering a degree in plumbing, and that this course was oversubscribed about 100 fold? Clearly these applicants have their heads screwed on (even if it might be a gas thread screw!!)

Seriously - if you can get a degree in media studies or golf course management, there is (to my mind) far more pure and applied science to get your teeth into on a course in plumbing, and much better job prospects :)

I agree with the general trend of the argument, but Trullo - your communication skills are fine. Why shouldn't your son equally have them? His school may not have gone about it the right way, but they shouldn't be criticised for wanting him to have key skills. They've also probably seen many students try and avoid doing something because it _is_ difficult for them, but in life that's no excuse not to try. There's also many adult literacy learners out there who say that their schools gave up on them - be glad that this isn't the case here.

Just because it's a manual trade doesn't mean reading skills aren't required - although from seeing some technical instruction leaflets (eg my recent new boiler) they don't always appear to be in English!

I agree totally that he or any student should be given key skills support and as you say reading even in plumbing is vital but the poor boy has failed the the exam for English many times although he passed his plumbing with flying colours bacause he can't remember whether a word has two s's or one. It is time and practice that helps to over come this problem not an exam. Back to societies pressure, his girlfriend is at university and he has even said to me will I still be good enough for her when she has qualified. Sounds silly I know but that is what has been imprinted on kids (he's 19) today you have to have a degree to be worthy.

Damn this not editing lark! Look how flipping bad that post was but hope you get the gist! :D

[QUOTE=PeterAbruzzo]Dear Relaxed and Sebastiano,

Thank you both for your replies.

We are working with a lawyer to find the best, legal way to do what I have proposed. I am beginning to worry though that you may be right and that the cost would put us back at Euro 22 by the time we ahered to all of the local laws etc.

Let me rephrase my original question. What is the best way to cut down on the high cost of renovating a house in Italy?

Paying Euro 1,500 per square meter for renovation is simply not an option.

Peter[/QUOTE]
This thread was getting a bit outa hand ending up with slovenian lorry drivers etc The point i was trying to make is simply that Yes,you can have foriegn workers but you have to make sure they're fully insured/supervised etc at which point and always unless anyone is into slavery, they still have to receive an adequate pay for Italy not for Poland. Whilst our Italian builders were on Euro 35,00 per hour the Rumanians i was employing recently were Euro 22,00 per hour (registered and insured) + vat which comes to Euro 26,50 per hour and Euro 20,40 per hour for the other workers.In three they were costing me Euro 673,00 per day (10 hour day working v.v.hard)So ,to my mind that is the ball court one is looking at.anyone who knows anything about edilizia and it's problems can understand that these figures are not over generous neither at the same time does it come cheap....at least not without guarantees and risks.