8823 A thought provoking provokation

Reading through the threads it strikes me that the English speaking community here in Italy are unreservedly trying to underpin the Italian fiscal finances.

You seem to want to throw away your money into a bottomless pit without consulting with architects, engineers, project managers, et cetera. Leaving your wallets and purses with the geometra and builders; no wonder they rub their hands when they see the “inglese”. Is it the wine and/or the weather??

In the UK you wouldn’t do that would you - you’d speak with your brother in law who’s an expert (put a garden wall up last week end) who knows somebody. But here in Italy you are intent on giving the Italian construction industry the key to your safe and getting a sub standard house in return.

A modern house today is a complex structure especially with today’s (& tomorrow’s) energy prices. With simple choices you can enhance a new or existing structure, with simple old and new techniques you can improve your indoor climate even in a 300 year old Italian stone house.

Very few people get the opportunity to construct or have their house constructed for them; here you are having a go yourselves and probably getting it wrong. The problem you’ll never know because you haven’t the experience… and that’s where the professionals (engineers, architects) come in.

Refusing to engage professionals is a false economy. The idea is they can save you money (they cost a fee – naturally) but the end result is a better house and probably to a lower price. You think a geometra will solve your problems a “Jack of all trades” rolled into one. I fear not they haven’t got a clue what’s out in the world today and they don’t want to learn – it’s just easier to do the same old thing over and over again. Even if there are issues regarding rising damp, leaks like a sieve and costs an arm and a leg to heat.

Mr & Mrs Joe Bloggs haven’t got a chance against the industry as a whole; all the techniques, materials, ignorance, badly informed wannabes that are out there….. You need to research! Do your homework! Failing this engage professionals all of whom need to be fluent in Italian and English.

You’re the boss you hold the purse strings.

I look forward to a fiery thread debate!

:smile:

Category

Building/Renovation

You are quite right about what you say regarding the "false economies". Then, when you are in the process of visiting houses to buy you find all the deplorable sights of half-finished houses DIY style, where you wonder "why on earth did they start those ill-conceived unfinished renovations".
You obviously do not like "geometras", but some of them are good although they may not have all the know-how required by some projects. We have employed one and we are happy with what he does. But then, the real brain behind the project is my husband who is a retired architect with over 40 years of international experience.....

I am not sure about the firey debate!. We and seemingly other forum members used an architect and we also used a geometra whom we were perfectly happy with. And if we want a small job done that we dont have the expertise to do ourselves then we ask a neighbour to recommend, or continue to use the builders ,electicians and plumbers that we used in our restoration, whose work we are happy with.

We also share this information with other English friends out here. I can appreciate it is difficult when you first start out, but if you ask around and do your research, I wonder if it is so much different in essence from what you would have done in the UK?. And it would be very silly to leave your "wallet" in the hands of anyone that you were unfamiliar with whether in UK or Italy.
A

To Gala Placidia similarly retired I have over 35 years of international project management. Naturally this helps a great deal beating the natives. In seven years I have never met other then a couple of geometras who I would trust and have the professional capability.

:smile:

To Robert & Angie well done for using a professional architect; unfortunately my provocation describes your posting; you wasted your money on the geometra; an architect can do exactly the same job better. Your well intentioned ill-advice costing others dearly.

Fiery enough!!

:SLEEP:

Well, I do not agree entirely with your opinion regarding "geometras". As I said before and as in any profession there are good ones, average and bad ones. Normally, people in the area will recommend who is to be trusted. In our case, the geometra takes care of all permits with the comune, pays the bills and charges us and gets the right people, at the right time, to work. That is to say, he does everything we cannot do ourselves without having to live on site.
As for people who try to avoid using professionals, I think the problem is that they sometimes buy properties which need a lot of work and expenditure to bring up to habitable standards and then they find themselves in a trap with too little money to do the work which is required. I also think that some real estate agents do not give the correct advice to potential buyers and some tend to underestimate the final cost of the project. It is a potential trap for buyers.

I guess we all agree on that one.
Trouble is what is an expert ?
Someone with a title and qualifications?
Someone with 10 years experience?
With 10 years experience are you then getting 10 year old experience / technology ?
Remember that italy does not like change, maybe why I moved here.
Maybe a mixture of the above, who knows.
Difficult enough in your own country to choose from options, even more difficult in a foreign language unless you understand their comedy.
Every choice will be a compromise , different for every person and budget based on personal wishes, style and view of risk.
So where does that leave all of us.
Hopefully this is where forums such as this come in, a place to ask Q’s, hear views and compile as much info as possible. Again the problem of “reading” the views of others and are they experienced by experience, qualified by qualification or open minded and helpful, or everything in one.

Italy is full of architects is a fact , are they all any good is a big question mark.
Same with most things in life, we must all try to make an informed decision in our own way.
If we could all have perfection we would be all driving 1950’s Mercedes, my expert opinion because I’m a car “expert” ?. Because I drive a 1964 triumph herald.

The biggest problem I’m finding here in Italy is big contradictions and views on interpretation of legislation, heating and the future.

thanks L fo No.

steve

QUOTE...The biggest problem I’m finding here in Italy is big contradictions and views on interpretation of legislation, heating and the future....UNQUOTE

Steve, we may need a crystal ball....

Well thanks Lotan!, always welcome to have others who obviously have a problem with geometras on hand to tell me we have wasted our money!, and that sharing information with others is also a waste of time, but glad we have your approval for being bright enough to employ an architect. I think we are going to have to beg to differ on this subject. I can only go on my own experiences and those of friends, but I do think you do a disservice to those geometras out there doing a good job.
A

Hi Lotan

?? Has someone rattled your cage this morning, most people on this site give and receive advice with no ulterior motive or axe to grind....

As for 'beating the natives' a comment which has a racial/power overtone, yes your post is - provoking. It provokes me to say that I find this comment offensive...
'One man's native is other's neighbour!'

Most adults make decisions with a measure of good faith, but vis-a-vis building works in italy etc. these decisons are made based on a combination of personal knowledge, intelligence, competence, access to professionals (cost and location), knowledge of language/legislation etc., honesty and integrity of professionals (both italian and other nationalities including UK)- I suggest that this may be your field and therefore you may be able 'to make the correct decision and congratulate yourself' but I suggest that out of your field you may be equally disadvantaged.

[quote=Angie and Robert;82968]Well thanks Lotan!, always welcome to have others who obviously have a problem with geometras on hand to tell me we have wasted our money!, and that sharing information with others is also a waste of time, but glad we have your approval for being bright enough to employ an architect. I think we are going to have to beg to differ on this subject. I can only go on my own experiences and those of friends, but I do think you do a disservice to those geometras out there doing a good job.
A[/quote]
Hi, I agree with your comments about geometras doing a good job.We are happy with our geometra but he seems to pluck figurers out of the sky!! One week its £20,000 for a new wall then next week its £9,000!! Our restoration costs are very high so its plan B whatever that is!! But he is now our friend and we dont feel we are being ripped off but we may have to do alot of d.i.y ourselves.
Regards Cilla.

[quote=Aretina;82971]Hi Lotan

?? Has someone rattled your cage this morning, most people on this site give and receive advice with no ulterior motive or axe to grind....

Most adults make decisions with a measure of good faith, but vis-a-vis building works in italy etc. these decisons are made based on a combination of personal knowledge, access to professionals (cost and location), knowledge of language/legislation etc., honesty and integrity of professionals (both italian and other nationalities including UK)- I suggest that this may be your field and therefore you may be able 'to make the correct decision and congratulate yourself' but I suggest that out of your field you may be equally disadvantaged.[/quote]

I probably would be...... you are correct. It is just that people come to Italy wide eyed and see their dream turn into a nightmare. I have personally seen in the last two years 4 couples dissolve into separation and return to the UK. The stats bear it out 80% of brits return to the UK before 3 years.

Dis-service I don't need to do that - the geometras do that all by themselves (look at Cilla's post). . A price difference of £11' is certainly not professional in my book!

People must do their homework and research are objective and skeptical and not be so nieve you wouldn't do it in the UK but here we just seem to throw it away. Is it the wine or the climate??

We'll said Steve - I like your comments - grounds for further debate!
:smile:

I have used two geometras on work at my place - both were recommended by locals and they both did a good job

The first did a 'refurb' on the house - gas connection, new electrics, knock down and re-build internal walls, new kitchen, new bathroom and total re-decoration.

The second designed and managed an extension to the balcony, its total waterproofing and re-tiling and the construction of a new stairway up to it.

Obviously there are good and bad Geometras [and Architects] - it depends on how you choose them

-------------

I am a bit biased against Architects - when I attended Uni to study Civil Engineering, the first thing we were all told by the Head Of Department was;-

"A Civil Engineer is a person [actually he said 'man' - but that was several decades ago] who can build for a pound what any person ['man' again] can build for two pounds...and an Architect will charge him ten pounds for"

The second thing he told us was;-

"A Civil Engineer is the man [person] who makes the Architect's design stand up".

Nice touch - like it!

my geometra isn't innovative - but he is local & knowledgable about local matters

He isn't slick and he doesn't make much use of email/CAD - but he's trustworthy and reliable;

he isn't an architect nor a structural engineer - but he knows when one is required and will source one who he knows will do a good job for me at a fair price, and then liase with them on my behalf to ensure delivery meets expectation

he isn't a project manager to trade - but he can & does manage projects for me, as I'm not in Italy full time to do so myself. he charges me for that, but at a negotiated fee which I'm happy to pay (and which pays for itself in me not having to fly out every second weekend to supervise), and with his geometra's fee being much reduced from the norm.

he doesn't speak any english - but he has incredible patience with me while I make him go over and over the same issue ad nauseum until I fully grasp the detail and manage to make my own instructions clear in my rudimentary italian

he isn't a property manager - but he holds keys to my property and provides supervised access to tradesmen when required

All things considered, he's a very useful person to know, and being a holiday home owner, I'd have been lost without his help and support both pre & post purchase. I'm perhaps atypical here in that my home is a modern construction (less than 10 years old). So, my works are improvements (adding a cement portico in a seizmic zone); small remedial stuff (replacing defective guttering throughout); completion of unfinished cosmetic aspects (external paving) or supervising kitchen installation etc.

Lotan, you are clearly able to self-manage your own building work. You seem to know how to source a variety of specialist professionals as & when you decide they're required, and how to evaluate their professionalism in advance of retaining them. That takes time & experience - and a measure of luck as well as judgement if you're totally honest.

Good for you. But, you're dealing here with a forum where many/most contributers don't have ...
(a) the technical knowledge or mgmt experience
(b) the luxury of time to acquire it on-site (on whats likely their one & only build)
(c) the neccessary language skills
(d) the knowledge of relevant legislation
(e) the physical presence in Italy
... to do likewise without potentially creating as many problems as they're seeking to solve.

Don't underestimate the non-technical benefits that a [B]good[/B] Geometra will bring to such projects - he'll be the initial point of contact, guide and confidante; he'll be able to open doors into the community where you plan to reside.

I agree that the challenge is finding a [B]good[/B] geometra; you say that they're like hens teeth; I say that your definition of "good" simply isn't comprehensive enough to cover the range of things for which the average member here relies upon their Geometra. There are loads of reliable and 'controllable' geometre out there; the trick is to know their limitations and not put blind trust in them ... but equally to trust in them when required, once you've done the due dilligence to select someone trustworthy in the first place.

[quote=alan h;82976]I am a bit biased against Architects - when I attended Uni to study Civil Engineering, the first thing we were all told by the Head Of Department was;-

The second thing he told us was;-

"A Civil Engineer is the man [person] who makes the Architect's design stand up".[/quote]

way off topic, but this brought to mind one of the few things I've retained from my misspent youth as an electronic eng. undergraduate:

"the modern digital telephone exchange is so simple that it may be operated by one man and a dog. The dog is there to make sure the man doesn't touch anything, and the man is there to feed the dog".

The main thing with the Geometre is to tell them what you want, and not what they decide you need. We talked to Italians prior to starting our restoration and they recommended a very good builder and we told the geometre this was who we wanted for the project. After some protests he agreed and we had our choice. We designed the interior of the house and this again he agreed on.
The major problem we had was overcoming his objection to the GSHP, as he was still living in the 70's relatively and said GPL was the only thing that would work and where did we want the gas tank situated. He was happy to pay Euro 3000 per year to heat his apartment. Even the plumber said the system would not operate......... Our neighbours also elected to go Geothermal as they had stayed here for 5 weeks and our Geometres brother who was managing their project still tried to persuade them to use GPL. Modern thinking and technology does not appear to be in some areas of Marche for sure!!
His idea of a finishing builder for the work here, was a painter and decorator who had used solely for that work before, but who had convinced him he could do everything. Problem was he used dropouts from bars as workers ...... what a joke and the court case goes on as we refused to pay in the end ........ So much for the Geometres words " I am the Judge & Jury" and that everything was "normale", despite being offered the photo disc referring to all our complaints.
My rant over !!!!!!!!

The other challenge I see here is that of building regulations and styles. So even the most experienced of English/American/insert other country of choice may well be surprised by construction methods and regulations. So costs for some jobs are way higher than other countries, and then we (innovative souls?) want to introduce a new thingme into the mix, perhaps requiring "localisation" - another early adopter premium and (as I see it) many of us are seeking rural tranquility - not urban economy of scale.

Can a geometra ever be a friend? I don't think so.You may need to be very rude to your geometra and if you have made them a friend that's just going to make you feel really bad! If you never need to be rude to your geometra good luck to you and please let us all have their address!

Back to the original thread ;Good,I agree with it all. I'm still not 100% sure I would go along with everything I was told by a civil engineer.I'd want to do research on the net, ask others etc,etc. But I would almost never,ever blindly follow builder's, geometra's advice.Any variation on the norm is going to completely stump them and why should you have the sort of house they want you to have just because they arent aware of any other ways of building or heating a house?

I too know of people who having spent 20,000 on a ruin now face a preventivo of 100,000 for underpinning etc.If you see a cheap house on the internet think seriously about how much you can spend on it!

Then double that amount.

My personal experience of Geometre is good. I've only used two, one in Puglia and one in Abruzzo. The one in Puglia was very good and the one I'm currently using in Abruzzo is also very good but I need to push and pester him occasionally to get things moving. He has done everything a Geometra should do and charged me much less than the norm as a % of the build, all planning permissions applied for and approved withing 4 weeks (up to 12 weeks in UK, but then again he is an Assessore at the Comune which helps). The final costs came within 10% of the original quotes for builder, carpenter, plumber, electrician etc. and this was mainly because of the complicated wood roof structure and my adding/changing one or two things during the build, otherwise it would have been below the quotes.

I'm not disputing other peoples bad experiences which I'm sorry to hear of but I'm surprised to read posts from one or two people who have had or know people who have had so many bad experiences from so many Geometras. Sometimes, in the UK and Italy, some peoples expectations may be too high and some people may be unreasonable as clients (My expectations are sometimes high and I have been unreasonable at times with people in Italy and in the UK) or they expect a Geometra to do an Architect or a Civil Engineers job.

With regards to quotes, of course people will get extremely varying quotes everywhere. I've used builders and architects in the UK and often had unbelievable differences in quotes for exactly the same work using full detailed plans. My most recent project at home in the UK was the most varying in price I've ever had ranging from £22,000 to £41,000 for exactly the same job. All quotes from small reputable family builders. I've also had quotes for very similar doors in Italy which were 40% dearer than the ones I had fitted.

One thing I do agree with is that Geometras tend to want to do things their way because its the norm and I have had to insist a couple of times when I wanted something done my way. For example, I asked for a very large open plan kitchen, Dining room and lounge and a picture corner window which is about 4 metres wide and my Geometra disagreeed and thought this was unusual and not normally done in the area but I insisted I wanted it done my way. He reluctantly agreed but admitted after seeing the finished job that it was a good idea. All in all, I think that if your job only requires a Geometra then a Geometra is the best person for that job. Equally, if the job requires an Architect or Civil Engineer then that is who should be employed. If I need someone to lay floor tiles, I use a tiler. If I need a wall built, I use a bricklayer.

[quote=Biagio;83005]............One thing I do agree with is that Geometras tend to want to do things their way because its the norm and I have had to insist a couple of times when I wanted something done my way..........[/quote]

I had a similar problem with mine - he found it hard to understand why I wanted the washing machine in the garage instead of the bathroom - was amazed when I told him that electric sockets and washing machines in a bathroom were usually a 'no no' in England

QUOTE .....am a bit biased against Architects - when I attended Uni to study Civil Engineering, the first thing we were all told by the Head Of Department was;-

The second thing he told us was;-

"A Civil Engineer is the man [person] who makes the Architect's design stand up".... UNQUOTE

It all sounds like the sort of arguments we used to get at my in-laws place ages ago. Father-in-law, Civil Engineer (gold medal as the matter-of-fact) hubby, youngest son, Architect. They never reached an agreement. It was more of "you just do some calculations for what I design......."
It really does not matter at all. It all depends on how good you are as a professional.
My advice will always be to get the better help you can get for your project and, usually, people you know are the best advisers.

with experience of both architects and geometras... many ... and returning to the original tone of the debate if you happen to be living here and using an italian version of any of these there should be a health warning sign on all of them...

my thoughts are that without a life time experience of living in Italy it is a sort of pot luck dice between extortion and satisfaction and i see no marked difference between either profession here

whoever commented ... i think biagio ... hits the nail on the head... they all have their uses for specific jobs... so you have to work that one out for yourselves... the difficulty involved...

take into account also the fact that whoever you use should have a reasonable relationship with the comune you have the property in... or knows someone that does...

my comments are based on the fact that in a country where to operate on someones brain you in many cases have gained your degree and job being the son or daughter of someones that knows someone or else your family controls the health council in your area and you have very little to no knowledge of surgery....... then the sign on the door of an architects or a geometras office means as little as all the little certificates on the wall... the main question to answer is how much you can afford to loose to them... and a geometra is generally cheaper in that sense than an architect

the choice between the two in my mind is of little significance...the choice is to find anyone that is capable .....and finally whose first thought is not how much more they can bill you above your budget

choose carefully

To all thanks for your postings; interesting, amusing and some (mine included) down right instigating.

My provocation was to get a bigger debate with larger postings to show people new to the forum (including myself) your/our experiences with either the architect or the geometra; my views like yours are based on our different experiences with these creatures . I feel relieved because I'm not alone thinking the way I do; hearing other postings to the contrary fills me with hope that I shall one day meet the "virgin" geometra.

My wife and I retired to Italy; we love Italy and its people, not just the wine and climate. It's a great place - different - but none the less great. Wouldn't change it for London or Stockholm (lived & worked in both for 15 years).

Now back to the thread.....!!

:smile:

[quote=adriatica;83015]with experience of both architects and geometras... many ... and returning to the original tone of the debate if you happen to be living here and using an italian version of any of these there should be a health warning sign on all of them...

my thoughts are that without a life time experience of living in Italy it is a sort of pot luck dice between extortion and satisfaction and i see no marked difference between either profession here

whoever commented ... i think biagio ... hits the nail on the head... they all have their uses for specific jobs... so you have to work that one out for yourselves... the difficulty involved...

take into account also the fact that whoever you use should have a reasonable relationship with the comune you have the property in... or knows someone that does...

choose carefully[/quote]

I find it hard to believe that a degree could be so easily obtained. A position with a comune or some other type of public service is a different thing.... I know that nepotism is a real problem in Italy; however, it should not be up to that point....

[quote=lotan4850;82953]Refusing to engage professionals is a false economy. [/quote]My, my, my. Feeling a touch frisky today, eh?

As you quite correctly say in your initial post, lotan4850, refusing to engage professionals is, indeed, a false economy.

The choice of professional is, of course, subject to what is available in the area you are looking and also the size of your bank account.

You're not trying to drum up business again, are you?
:winki:

Now we're back to my provocation; the idea of using consultants is to design optimally, purchase to the best price and quality, get the project delivered on time and to budget.

With a consultant you are purchasing experience and this will always save money for any client more than any DIY job or trial and error approach.

In my opinion your bank account needs a consultant to save you money. Any half decent professional can better any purchase price for any major building component with more than 15% thus saving money for the client and more than compensates any fees paid. Unfortunately and this is where the dilemma comes in with the geometras and the Italian system; they do the deals your happy with the price before hand - and now I wonder where do all the savings go???

Horses for courses folks, modest job, use builder you can trust and if you are building a palazzo from scratch get all the best qualified help you can get.

PS sorry about the shouting - NEVER LEAVE A BUILDER ON HIS OWN! this very day my v nice builder man proudly showed me the door space in the wrong wall! easily rectified but what would have happened if I had been away for a few days?

gala

there are hospitals here in Italy that have so many doctors within the same family that you will find the only way to get a job is to marry one of them.... i think it was last year that all the results of one set of exams was cancelled because it was found out that so many of the students trying to attain a medical degree had already seen the papers...

there are several books on who controls and works in many of the medical establishments in the south and the amount of useless people doing that work... IE qualified but not capable ...

my point was not to hijack this interesting thread as regards doctors but to make the point that even to open a geometras studio here is almost impossible if you do not already have that background within your family ... architects studios even harder... and becoming a member of one of their professional bodies again harder...

so to my mind hiring a professional is not as simple here as in many other places... because of the penalties involved if you do not follow through with them... i am fine on paying for work done... but the fact here is that they charge you a percentage of the whole contract price even if you find you cannot go ahead... so people end up with disproportionate bills for a couple of drawings...

so i can understand why people seem to want to avoid these professions and try it themselves... am not saying its right... but the fines might just be less than the fees...

although if you ever want to re sell then without all the regulations followed and rubber stamped you will find it increasingly difficult as more and more checks are now in place when people do buy and sell

the problem here to my mind is that for every one decent hard working and fair geometra or architect there are another dozen or so that are not... which is fine... but how do you get to find the one...

I take your point John, bit of a worry though re the doctors, I just hope none of them are operating out of Fermo hospital, where I and other forum members have had excellent treatment, so perhaps more prevelant in the south?.
As to how to find a good builder, geometra, architect, surely the experience of friends would point you in the right direction and you would have the advantage of viewing their work before any commitment was made.

I can think of several projects here which have gone well and within budget, and would be happy to pass details on to anyone who might have an interest.
Angie

Well... it really is worse than I could ever imagine... Thank you again for the advice, John.

Hi,
I find this a very worthwhile and interesting thread. It's good to see so many people having a healthy discussion with so many varying opinions. Have met many Brits who seem to have spent far too much money on their project, and end up finding themselves on a runaway train. You know, you can't get off at any old station you have to go to the final destination. It strikes me that whilst trying to inform and help users of this forum who are obviously "doing their homework" they may come away with so many conflicting opinions that they feel confused.

There seems to be a lot of disagreement (healthy), but not necessarily helpful to a new forum member looking for clarification. Will this thread reach any broad consensus? I hope so. The existence of many educated, experienced & qualified people on this forum potentially provides a unique opportunity to provide a resource that wary & confused people could turn to for advice, clarification & support..
Sprat

Yes, Sprat. I think that you hit the nail when you mentioned "doing their homework". Good planning is vital and not too many people realise this. You can embark on any project if you have properly planned for it before.
Every project is different and I do not feel that we will be able to reach consensus; however, people should feel that we try to help the best we can using our qualifications, experience or common sense. And, most important, that many of us are very willing to help.

Since the start of our project in 2006 we have found [B]1[/B] person who I can wholeheartly recommend to anyone as a professional and nice with it. He does work on time and to budget,fixes problems quickly,gives you all the paperwork, and pays his taxes!! Its our carpenter Nicola.

Nicola apart [B]not one [/B]person has been what I would describe as satisfactory, some are downright criminal some just hopeless and unprofessional.Trouble is is it's all done with a smile and a charming manner. Buyer beware!!!

It drives me mad all the 'nero' workers. We got a delivery and I paid the driver in cash,asked for a receipt which I spotted on his lap. He laughed and tore up the bill and drove off before I could stop him!!!Grrrr.

Another scenario with an architect probably 20 years behind the times, but well used by UK people.
Uk client wants gshp, architect wants as much information as possible, so all sent by email in Italian to explain everything to her. Architect emails to arrange visit to see gshp here. Arrives and is more interested in taking pictures of how house has been restored.
Contacts client and says the water from the ground loops is heated by a electrical element to produce the hot water.......... intelligence. ... non existent, obviously cannot read either, or doesn't understand her own language. Probably easier to explain to a 10 year old.

[B];[/B] there are people who have had only good experiences and are loving living in italy so I suppose we should try not to all be such cynics!:winki:

It is a great shame that there are no Italians on this forum who can take this discussion to another level…but if you were an Italian geometra you would probably be very offended by what has been said here and if you were an Italian doctor…well nuff said!

Very true Nielo, as it would be interesting to get some reaction to what is said. Italian doctors in my case I cannot fault, as they were excellent.

my father in law is an italian geometra... now retired... who feels very much that there is a lot wrong with how things are done and checks out everything for us when we are signing our own contracts...

as regards doctors... several of my family are doctors in Rome... and my brother in law is one down near Naples... and the discussion about who can qualify and work in many hospitals is a current and ongoing argument... with many honest hard working doctors despairing of systems where so called whistle blowers are never able to work again in the health service if they tell any of the truth... and where merit is not rewarded...

its easily available without having to have Italian members here to read opinions or follow open discussions on these things or any other problem here... although in general what seems to happen is everyone then shouts at them for touting for work... anyway geometras have many discussion forums and you will find as anonymous entities they are quite open about these problems and who and how many are just pretty useless...

and i have posted up the stricia link several times ... there are many reports on the problems of italian doctors , hospitals and the ineptitude of many.... so if you happen to follow the news here its easy to get a fairly broad picture... which obviously balances out... and i think anyway we have italian geometras that post on this site... in fact i am sure... doctors ...maybe not... but as i say ...its a fairly widely discussed phenomenon ... in fact panorama ran a very good special last year on it ... doing a country wide series on hospitals and their rating... and another program is the watchdog one on rai 3 which does a doctor report almost as often as telecom...

the info is out there ...it just means watching italian tv and reading the papers

Adriatica is right; both my wife and I speak fluent Italian, we watch Italian TV and try to read the newspapers; unfortunately both the news and the newspapers are heavy going and in the end we revert to English TV. Although we make a concerted effort with the news. Of course this does not bode good for our Italian.

Of course lots of problems would be much better if we took on board the Italian culture (not just the wine & food) and this means to learn the Italian language.

:smile:

Didn't have a TV in the UK and haven't seen the need here, but I appreciate I'm missing out on a few things. The press is heavy going although La Stampa seems to have a reasonable format, helpful diagrams etc for when you are skimming: I think that's what I find difficult, I can't read at speed here.

As to doctors: went to a friend's 40th BP, and heard a few tales from a USL employee. Amazingly in a ski area the local trauma clinic has a very poor reputation!

i agree ...heavy going... but the weekly suplements or magaziness are generalley easier... and the programs like stricia have their own websites where you can watch some quite easy viewing film reports... but all the investigative shows have their own sites.. it gives a lighter view of what italians are currentley concerned over than print

I can recommend [B]il Centro [/B]in Abruzzo. Even with only basic Italian it's possible to follow most stories.I buy a copy every day and read it in the bar, like the groups of old men!! La Repubblica I am not so keen on.

Recent stories on corruption in Pescara and Montisilvano, refuge from Naples getting dumped in Abruzzo land-fill,continuing problems with drinking water and even the views of the Sindaco of Serramonacesca on new developement in Passo Lanciano have all intersted me.

While its lovely to get on with your neighbours and the local bar owner its actually necessary to look further afield to the Italian media to provide you with a wider picture of what's actually going on there albiet with a terribly left or right wing bias!!