"Yes" you need more.
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 01:56In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Referring to insulation, I have constantly read on here that you need 'as much as possible'. We are renovating a stone built trullo with lamias. Two of the lamias need rebuilding and our architect/geometra team have recomended the following for the walls and roof:- [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][I]Set up on the outside with a walling that will use the stones saved with a width of about 20 cms, and inside with a walling made with slices of tuff of a width of 15 cms, with in between an air chambre to insert a thermo insulating panel of a width of 6 cms. [/I][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]and[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][I]To execute the following finishing works on all the roofs: supply and making of the steam barrier made of a TNT sheet to be laid down on the base of the roof; supply and lying down themo insulating panels of a width of 6 cms, to be placed on top of the TNT sheet. Creating the concrete base for the roofs made with a mix of sand and concrete. Supply and laynd down of a rubber liquid bitumen sheet of a widht of 4 m.m.. Supply and making of the pavement of the roofs woth stone from Lecce, with further pointing with a misture of sand[/I][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Is this sufficient insulation?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]I would value any opinions - Thanks[/SIZE][/FONT]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
We had minus 11ºc yesterday morning in Reggio Emilia. We have 14cm in the walls and 35 cm in the roof with 15 cm in the floor. As I pointed out on earlier postings this is the best investment you can make to a house with the quickest payback of all energy conservating measures!!!
The best is to divide the insulation into two; one internally and one externally. The internal one can be plastered and to save chopping out all the brickwork for the electrical installation you can put it in the insulation. The external is to reduce the thermal bridging between building elements walls and floors. So inbetween the stone façade and the structural brickwork.
I would recommend more not less: a minimum of 5 cm internally and 5 cm externally. Your builder will probably put in max 4cm if your lucky 8cm. The more insulation the better.
Spend now and increase your insulation because it ain't goin' to get cheaper (the energy bills - that is).
:smile:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=Luce Dell'Amore;83014][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Referring to insulation, I have constantly read on here that you need 'as much as possible'. We are renovating a stone built trullo with lamias. Two of the lamias need rebuilding and our architect/geometra team have recomended the following for the walls and roof:- [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][I]Set up on the outside with a walling that will use the stones saved with a width of about 20 cms, and inside with a walling made with slices of tuff of a width of 15 cms, with in between an air chambre to insert a thermo insulating panel of a width of 6 cms. [/I][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]and[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][I]To execute the following finishing works on all the roofs: supply and making of the steam barrier made of a TNT sheet to be laid down on the base of the roof; supply and lying down themo insulating panels of a width of 6 cms, to be placed on top of the TNT sheet. Creating the concrete base for the roofs made with a mix of sand and concrete. Supply and laynd down of a rubber liquid bitumen sheet of a widht of 4 m.m.. Supply and making of the pavement of the roofs woth stone from Lecce, with further pointing with a misture of sand[/I][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Is this sufficient insulation?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]I would value any opinions - Thanks[/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]
The expression "less is more" should in fact read "more is less" with regard to insulation - more insulation is less energy bills. Not only does it keep heated air in it keeps hot air out in the summer (no need for air con).
But to answer your question in one word - NO!!
:smile:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Thanks for the reply Lotan.
As it is a stone building, we would prefer the isulation in the cavity. Instead of 5cm + 5cm, would having 10cm in the cavity have similar insulating properties?
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Failing every thing and there is no alternative - OK.
The problem is the thermal bridging through the structural elements - its like putting an overcoat on over a winter vest - best describes it.
Thermal bridging is a problem in Italian and other countries' house structures. If you add them all up it's like leaving a window open all year round winter and summer and in Italy it's like leaving the barn door open all year round.
:laughs:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=lotan4850;83022]
The problem is the thermal bridging through the structural elements - its like putting an overcoat on over a winter vest - best describes it.
:laughs:[/quote]
I am probably being thick but I do not understand the analogy. It is no doubt due to my understanding of a thermal bridge(i.e window frames, where walls meet ceilings etc). Surely isn't it like putting on an overcoat but there is a hole in the back!
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
thanks cacciatore and lotan for your suggestions.
we'll be addressing all these points with the architect when we next meet, but i like to approach these meetings already informed so that i know the right questions to ask!
Still not sure about what road to take for the supply of energy, it may be PV but its very costly to install. we are in the very early stages of planning this project and i'm just trying to find out as much as i can about all the options. do the eco friendly materials you described, sheeps wool and straw bales perform as well as the polyrolo you mentioned?
And, Lotan, am i right in thinking that we need minimum 5 cms of e.g.polyrolo between the stone facing and the poroton bricks plus an extra layer of insulating material plastered onto the inside surface. should we divide the amounts equally or is it better to have more on the outside, ie in the cavity between the stone and brick? Is poroton brick the best solution or are there other thermal bricks more efficient which reduce the need for the extra insulation?
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=Luce Dell'Amore;83024]I am probably being thick but I do not understand the analogy. It is no doubt due to my understanding of a thermal bridge(i.e window frames, where walls meet ceilings etc). Surely isn't it like putting on an overcoat but there is a hole in the back![/quote]
I was thinking more a long the lines of a dune body vest where your arms come out here an overcoat is better - if you get my drift - not the best of analogies!
:smile:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=sanje48;83025]thanks cacciatore and lotan for your suggestions.
we'll be addressing all these points with the architect when we next meet, but i like to approach these meetings already informed so that i know the right questions to ask!
Still not sure about what road to take for the supply of energy, it may be PV but its very costly to install. we are in the very early stages of planning this project and i'm just trying to find out as much as i can about all the options. do the eco friendly materials you described, sheeps wool and straw bales perform as well as the polyrolo you mentioned?
And, Lotan, am i right in thinking that we need minimum 5 cms of e.g.polyrolo between the stone facing and the poroton bricks plus an extra layer of insulating material plastered onto the inside surface. should we divide the amounts equally or is it better to have more on the outside, ie in the cavity between the stone and brick? Is poroton brick the best solution or are there other thermal bricks more efficient which reduce the need for the extra insulation?[/quote]
Sanje48,
There are of course other materials much better and more structurally sound and thinner in construction but... you need an expert to discuss this with an Italian architect who wants to do it his way ... sorry!
Back to your question ... but why the cavity just a load of extra work. If you attach the "cappoti" 5/6 cm insulation internally then do a normal thin plaster onto which you attach a heavy plaster you've got a better construction. Out side on the brickwork attach your external "cappoti". The more insulation the better!!! We managed 14 cm but I would have preferred 20cm (too late now).
Normally you have a thicker insulation externally.
As a layman (I have no idea what your Italian is like and the architect's English) I feel you're in for a rough ride and the look to heaven attitude with the words "Sono matti".
Good luck you're goin' t' need it!!
:wideeyed:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
The poroton blocks are not being suggested as a thermal solution. Their common name is anti-seismic blocks - so that should give you a hint! They are heavyweight extruded clay blocks, so there are airspaces within them, but they are not 'thermal'.
I'll run you through one argument which will be used to discourage you from a signifcant thickness of wall insulation. The permitted volume of a buiding is measured externally, so, if you were to go for a thickness of say, 20cm insulation, on a two storey detached 100sq metre dwelling, the insulation could easily rob you of 10sq m of internal area. That's a smallish bedroom, or a couple of bathrooms.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=Charles Phillips;83033]The poroton blocks are not being suggested as a thermal solution. Their common name is anti-seismic blocks - so that should give you a hint! They are heavyweight extruded clay blocks, so there are airspaces within them, but they are not 'thermal'.
I'll run you through one argument which will be used to discourage you from a signifcant thickness of wall insulation. The permitted volume of a buiding is measured externally, so, if you were to go for a thickness of say, 20cm insulation, on a two storey detached 100sq metre dwelling, the insulation could easily rob you of 10sq m of internal area. That's a smallish bedroom, or a couple of bathrooms.[/quote]
Don't you just love the planning criteria for buildings.
However there are other products that do exactly the same job as poroton but are lesser in thickness as an example Emmedue panels 20 cm insulation total siesmic structure 28 cm an additional 3/4 sqm using this method. And a heap of insulation as well. Both not bad!
It's an Italian ICF product made in Ancona, a little more expensive than poroton but insulated. can't beat it. Used it on three builds here in Italy and Poroton hate it. Hardly surprising.
Good ain't it!
:yes:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=lotan4850;83034]
It's an Italian ICF product made in Ancona, a little more expensive than poroton but insulated. can't beat it. Used it on three builds here in Italy and Poroton hate it. Hardly surprising.
Good ain't it!
:yes:[/quote]
Details please :bigergrin:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[url=http://www.mdue.it]Pannelli antisismici Emmedue[/url]
the best thing since sliced bread!!
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Just checked out the website, looks good, apart from the fact you cant render or plaster it, and I bet those big holes cost a fortune to heat...................
dont ya luv it
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=deborahandricky;83051]Just checked out the website, looks good, apart from the fact you cant render or plaster it, and I bet those big holes cost a fortune to heat...................
dont ya luv it[/quote]
You're obviously not technically competent (hence the need for professionals) this is an ICF; the company has built thousands of homes using this system. Of course you can plaster and render it; and what holes are you looking at?
ICFs are the fastest growing sector in the building industry in the states and Europe wide. And they've been in Italy over 30 years.
:SLEEP:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
could the emmedue panels be used for our house? ie faced with stone and insulated in between. or maybe they dont need insulation? is it an expensive option?
i looked at porotherm bricks on weinburgers website. anyone got an opinion?
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
More expensive to purchase but quicker to install - faced with bricks, stone, wood what ever you want. 5 cm or 30 cm insulation as you wish.
Above all a better insulated house with thinner walls then poroton - but what a job convincing the architect. They hate change!
:smile:
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=lotan4850;83052]You're obviously not technically competent (hence the need for professionals) this is an ICF; the company has built thousands of homes using this system. Of course you can plaster and render it; and what holes are you looking at?
ICFs are the fastest growing sector in the building industry in the states and Europe wide. And they've been in Italy over 30 years.
:SLEEP:[/quote]
You may well be correct "You're obviously not technically competent"
But I have been told that I have a sense of humour :laughs:
[url=http://www.mdue.it/pannelli-antisismici.htm]M2 - Prodotti - Pannelli[/url]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=deborahandricky;83051]Just checked out the website, looks good, apart from the fact you cant render or plaster it, and I bet those big holes cost a fortune to heat...................
dont ya luv it[/quote]
And you have the brass neck to question lotan's assertion that you are not technically competent?
Limit your one liners (however amusing you think they are) to 'chat' threads, please....just to please me?
[quote=sanje48;83011]what is the best way to insulate a house which is being rebuilt using poroton bricks and faced with the stone of the original demolished building, and where does the insulation go? between the poroton and the stone or on the internal walls? we've been told that poroton is thermally insulating and that there is little requirement for extra insulation. but from what i can glean from here and other sources more insulation would be better.[/quote]
Hello sanje48,
I replied to one of your other texts about heating, but had no reply on what type of house you were planning to build. At least now I know.
The answer is simple again "Yes" you need more insulation and the thicker the better. Your poroton bricks like any barrier insulate, but not to a sufficent english Standard. Its been in the minus here in Le Marche for the last few nights and I can tell you you feel the difference.
With regards to insulation I would suggest both "Polyrolo" that comes in sheets or the more standard fibre insulation that does cost less.
The insulation goes between your poroton bricks and your fortelli walls. I would suggest at least ten centimetres on all sides and don't forget floors and ceilings.
Mind you on your earlier text you talked about photovoltic heating if thats the case you could insulate with eco friendily local materials far less costly than standard insulation. Try sheeps wool that gets thrown away here or straw by the bale. Both are eco friendily and just as good as standard insulation.
Just one question isn't these questions something your "Project manager?" should be answering? After all most of them get paid very well for their so called advice!