8839 Gas Tanks

It has been mentioned on several threads that gas tanks are provided by the supplier, provided that a contract is taken out,which is understandable. Other comments made refer to the tanks being situated underground.

As we are having currently having central heating installed in our holiday home in Calabria, using a combi boiler these points are of interest.

Can anyone advise on whether the tank has to be buried, or is this an aesthetic or comune decision? If the tank is buried is this paid for by the gas supplier or the owner?

Is there a standard length of contract or is the contract length like a piece of string?

Category

Building/Renovation

[quote=Jenroy;83152]It has been mentioned on several threads that gas tanks are provided by the supplier, provided that a contract is taken out,which is understandable. Other comments made refer to the tanks being situated underground.

As we are having currently having central heating installed in our holiday home in Calabria, using a combi boiler these points are of interest.

Can anyone advise on whether the tank has to be buried, or is this an aesthetic or comune decision? If the tank is buried is this paid for by the gas supplier or the owner?

Is there a standard length of contract or is the contract length like a piece of string?[/quote]

They tend to be buried here for aesthetical reasons, the gas company pay for the burial. You need to shop around for prices - Ive heard that Agip are cheap at the mo, also Lampogas but dont know if they have a rep in your area.

Finally, place bombola away from the house as by law you must have a 1.8m high fence thats Im away from the top of the bombola. The fence could be a bit of an eyesore.

Also insulate the inside of the bombola lid- we had ice inside that split a valve when it melted- causing gas leak and fire brigade visit.

The fence requirement does not apply if it is buried underground. It has to be situated if I remember right min. 5 metres from the house and min. 3m from a road.

The supplier normally quotes prices they bury it and you bury it. It normally works out cheaper to bury it yourself naturally with a local JCB and driver.

When negotiating be aware there are five qualities of GPL gas only class 3-5 are available in Italy and naturally this refers to the quality and energy content of the gas. Five being the worst and one being the best. Make sure you work out the Kcal for each gas quality type and compare apples with apples not with pears.
Anyone out there know any further info mine maybe outdated - keep us posted!
:smile:

lotan... just to confuse or clarify... the fence... if the property or garden where the bombola is to be sited is unfenced then the company installing ours says you have to fence off the tank...much as you describe...

we also have to posess two fire extinguishers of the correct size and type... plus have had to cut down one tree because it was within the five meter area ... not only house also but buildings have to be that far away...

dont know if these rules differ by province or comune...but also we have to have a fire safety certificate ... issued by the local comune after a fire officer inspects... here its every five years...

Interesting point about the grades of gas, thanks Lotan. I wasn't aware.

To answer your other question, the usual requirement for the minimum length of contract is 1 year. Some companies ask for 2 years but you can negotiate. After that expires you are free to shop around for another supplier.

Also, I've just arranged for one to be installed (today actually, and I understand from my Geometra that they are having trouble digging a deep hole due to rocky ground as I requested a vertical tank. They may have to use the normal shape tank) and it's worth asking if the bombola comes with a meter. Some don't and then you have to call them when your tank is empty which means you or someone needs to be there and pay on delivery. The one I've ordered has a meter and they pop round every month or so and top it up when it's running low and just send me a bill, actually, I've set up a direct debit to pay the bills.

Adriatica, Obviously differs because our property is not fenced nor is the ground cistern. The fire officer is a good point and correct the responsibity rests with the company supplying the cistern.

As regards fire extinguishers no such demand here; if it blows I think it would be too late for them anyway.

This comment by Biagio regarding the contract length we signed for 2 years; but I'm unsure if the cistern remains your property I think you maybe forced to ask for a renewed contract or change suppliers and/or ultimately change cisterns. Although I have already discussed with our supplier to free us and sell us the cistern. He wasn't keen.

There are two ways of doing this with an ind. cistern either they supply you every time you require refilling and the gas is yours so to speak whereas the other alyernative is the gas meter wher it remains their gas and you pay for consumption (normally slightly more expensive.

[QUOTE=lotan4850;8328
As regards fire extinguishers no such demand here; if it blows I think it would be too late for them anyway.
QUOTE]

We were told, by the fire officer, that the fire extinguishers have to be kept in the house and are to deal with house fires so that they can be tackled and hopefully extinguished before there is any risk of the fire reaching the bombola.

Here, all bombole are buried, no choice, and as such there are no rules re fencing ( all the older above ground ones are fenced) but you do have to have a sign and four markers around it - provided by the company. The distance from house & public road also apply - I read somwhere that there is also a minimum distance they can be situated from a railway line but can't remember what as it did not apply.

Here in rural Umbria we signed up with an Api agent to supply gas. They supplied the underground tank, we met all the costs of burying it. This was early in 1999. It had to be inspected (the Geometra sorted that) and the gas co checked the tank annually. No fences, or signs just some bushes growing attarctively near it. In particularly hard winters the gas delivery driver would not/could not get down our drive (500 mts from the village). Autumn 2005 we chose to pay to have a gas tube laid from the village gas supply to our house (VERY expensive). The Api agent insisted on having his tank back!!!!! We met the cost of digging it up and after raised voices, left the tank out for him to collect. Having spent a huge amount on buying gas from Api we had surely more than met the cost of the tank? Our advice is sort out the small print before you choose a supplier. Who owns the tank etc. We are now paying over the odds for Olivi gas (we can only use one supplier) but we no longer have problems in winter, so we bit the bullet!

Don't mean to gloat....Just had a 3000 litre gas tank fitted underground in Umbria. Supergas was the provider (part of ESSO I think). They did everything, supplied the tank fitted it and are now laying the pipework to the boiler (fitted outside) all for free. I have signed a contract for them to provide GPL at 0.64c per litro + iva. Not sure how the unit price compares with other providers but so far impressed with service and professionalism. The caldaia will work with my termocamino which is wood based. Through information from friends, I am horrified by the potential cost of heating a home using GPL. I intend using gas as secondary. Anyway, I'll keep the forum informed when I have used the company over a period of time.

Whilst we are on the subject of gas, can we try and put together a list of suppliers and the price they are charging (roughly) at the moment. We last filled up our tank with Goldengas and €500 has only lasted us 2 months - gas hob and heating a 2 bedroom apartment (whilst only having the heating on for 3 hours a day!). Will look now to see how much we paid a litre, but it seems quite expensive at the moment.
Thanks
Sarah and Mark

Thanks to all, especially AdamInNarni for this very useful and informative thread. More fuel for the argument for wood or pellet fired boilers then? With 240ms, we are only going to use gas for cooking (a hob or two) and hope that even then the gas will only be as supplement to a wood fired cooker. My Italian neighbours, who are resstoring a similar sized rural Umbrian property are following the same 'flexible' approach to heating for space and hot water. Anyway, I'm drifting off topic here...Do please keep us briefed AdamInNarni and all. P.S. Good idea about the list of suppliers too.

Don't forget about solar panels. It's a lovely day here in Narni, I have scorching hot water from my solar panel for doing the dishes and for a shower. Govt. is providing 55% subsidy towards installation (found out after I got mine done!).

The point here is, and I totally agree with Lupo, is that we need an integrated strategy towards energy provision in our homes, e.g. if you have trees (olive is the best fuel in my opinion) then get yourself a wood furnace. If you are south or east facing then you'll be silly in this country not to have a solar panel. However, let the plumber work out the kw/calories needed for your home based on m2 area or m3 volume which will dicate the size/capacity of your system. With the restoration project seemingly never ending, the last thing I want is to pay Euro 1000 per month on winter gas bills. Some people I know do!

[quote=sarahandmark;83380]Whilst we are on the subject of gas, can we try and put together a list of suppliers and the price they are charging (roughly) at the moment. We last filled up our tank with Goldengas and €500 has only lasted us 2 months - gas hob and heating a 2 bedroom apartment (whilst only having the heating on for 3 hours a day!). Will look now to see how much we paid a litre, but it seems quite expensive at the moment.
Thanks
Sarah and Mark[/quote]We filled our gas tank 5th November, then on 3rd January had to fill again, at a cost of 1500 Euros. That is for a 3 bedroom apartment, and cooking. We have the heating on for about 8 hours a day, but only to 17 degrees.

[quote=MargaretM;83462]We filled our gas tank 5th November, then on 3rd January had to fill again, at a cost of 1500 Euros. That is for a 3 bedroom apartment, and cooking. We have the heating on for about 8 hours a day, but only to 17 degrees.[/quote]

so that's Euro 750 per month. Don't know where you live or how many sq.m your appartment is or how high the rooms are. November and Decemeber were quite mild where I'm situated. February is typically the coldest month.

Don't want to venture too off-topic, but for those who have high ceilings, a colleage where I work from Canada told me that ceiling fans are a must in his country where temp can get down to -30, since the hot air gets trapped at the top and the floor level can get very very cold. I've witnessed this effect in my home with my heating going full blast. Any thoughts on this?

Lots of thoughts!
We are installing solar panels as you suggest, and this will feed twin coil cylinder. The other cylinder will be fed by probably a Viessmann pellet boiler and we shall look to set up a contract for bulk delivery of pellets to keep the price down. i know that the demand for pellets can make them expensive, so again. the boiler is just a back up for DHW and a few rads. Chiefly, we hope to space heat with wood stoves. We do have some very high ceilings and you are right to make the point about where all that heat goes! Piazzetta have focused on precisely this in their stove designs which draw in room air from above and release it at floor level, to even out the room temperature. I feel slightly sceptical about how well this might work, but they do have plenty of DIN and other certificates that seem to support what they claim.....Still, It's so warm on our South facing slope that if the house is freezing in February, We'll just go outside!

You're definitely right on your last point Lupo. Have spent much of the day outside warming up. Seems nonsensical with this weather to put the heating on. All of my windows and doors are open right now to let the heat in! Our thick stoned walls turn our house into a refrigerator . I could even turn it off to save on electricity.
Would be interested to know (and am sure others) how much your wood stoves cost - are they stand-alone?

Adam
"However, let the plumber work out the kw/calories needed for your home based on m2 area or m3 volume which will dicate the size/capacity of your system."

Plumbers are not normally Thermal Engineers and do not have the software or expertise for that type of calculation, unless you have a very knowledgable one working for you of course.

Hi AIN,
Sorry, haven't purchased yet, so can't comment in a useful way on costs of stoves! However, there's plenty of relevant threads on this forum that might interest, e.g. 'Geothermal Heating Facts' and 'GPL versus pellets for central heating' and many more.

Well said geotherm plumbers (!) plumbers(!) they are just tradesmen for connecting tubes together. Without the engineers to draw up the design they are out of their depth. They are not thermal engineers!!

Poor advice that will cost some unfortunate reader a lot of money.
Laymen being complimented for misguided advice - well done. Please spare me….

As far as the 55% subsidy that is up to 55% and if you use a plumber you can forget the subsidy. You have to have a plan for energy efficiency lodged with the commune and this plan must be followed to entitle you to any subsidy.

Don't just put in solar panels and expect to get a subsidy without a plan.

One solar panel installation doesn't make you an expert. With any solar panel installation you need to install an accumulator and like wise with wood or pellets unless you want a part time job loading up the fire with wood or pellets and chimney sweeping.

The accumulator evens out and collects all the energy to be distributed during the night when you're a sleep and there is no sun.

Sorry AdaminNarni - is that it one shower and one set of dishes (?) - I don’t call that efficient. Of an evening you’re firing up the gas boiler to give you hot water and heating? If you’d invested in an accumulator you could have saved the energy as above.

Our ceilings are 7 metres in height and we maintain with under floor heating a comfortable 20ºc. The idea is to keep the air still nearest the floor up to 2 metres in height with under floor heating so that the volume of air remains at a constant temperature. By forcing air up to the roof joists you just drag down the cold air - less efficient and costs more to warm up.

Back to the thread – we were quoted a few weeks ago €0.68/litre including iva euro gas class 3 (best energy content) so there are deals out there… go get ‘em!

:smile:

Steady on Io, nobody on this thread has claimed to be an expert! (except perhaps those who are) Useful comments on underfloor heating, thanks.

[quote=lotan4850;83471]Well said geotherm plumbers (!) plumbers(!) they are just tradesmen for connecting tubes together. Without the engineers to draw up the design they are out of their depth. They are not thermal engineers!!

Poor advice that will cost some unfortunate reader a lot of money.
Laymen being complimented for misguided advice - well done. Please spare me….

Don't just put in solar panels and expect to get a subsidy without a plan.

The accumulator evens out and collects all the energy to be distributed during the night when you're a sleep and there is no sun.

:smile:[/quote]

Wow, seem to have rattled your cage on several issues. Hey, I am not an exprt - did I say this? Firstly, an experienced plumber ought to know thermal requirements. There are formulae which one can easily access in google. My very expereinced plumber knew the score and he did a great job. Are you suggesting yet more professional fees: notaio, avvocato, architect, geologo, geometra and now thermal engineers! I have used all of them, but basta at 'thermal engineers'. I don't recall using one in the UK when I had central heating installed. Is this country different?...Secondly, of course one has to submit plans in their application to the commune to get any form of rebate or subsidy. Takes 3 years I understand to get your money back from the commune if your submission is OK, and the application is pricey. No such thing as a free lunch. I did not suggest otherwise. Castorama (the B&Q out here) were offereing this service last summer if you purchased a system with them. My solar panel (should have said 'solar heating system') has an accumulator. Get real...I can have 8 showers and wash every dish in my house on a sunny day, winter or summer, now that's efficient. Same with termocamino. You have missed my point: "Do the homework based on economics and work out which system is best before blindly opting for GPL gas"! Good grief....

Iotan4850, how derogatory of plumbers! You obviously haven't met any decent properly time served 'plumbers' that can actually work out the BTU requirements of a house. Not rocket science you know! Oh I forgot they haven't got a degree so must be thick!

Sorry Adam & K&S.
I first put the point on about thermal engineers as we usually ask for an analysis before putting in any geothermal system. Okay it isn't rocket science, but it does take in thickness of walls and construction, type of insulation, thermal capacity of windows, altitude of the property etc.
Under Italian Law 10/91 this is required for all new builds. With reference to the up to 55% rebate, if it is for heating then you have to have a certification from a Thermal Engineer that you are saving a minimum of 20% through the "Green" heating. Rebate is normally for residents who are paying Italian Income Tax and has to be claimed back when you fill in your annual tax return.

Just expanding on the above comment and trying not to bite further :winki: it all depends on the system that is required (and sorry but I can only comment on the UK, Italy must surely be similar). A properly qualified time served tradesman will be able to size and fit a basic central heating system in an average sized house. If the house is peculiar or a specialised system needs to be fitted then yes an engineer will probably be needed. Just didn't like the way plumbers were described as just for putting tubes together, that skill can be taught in a week.

[quote=Geotherm;83482]Sorry Adam & K&S.
I first put the point on about thermal engineers as we usually ask for an analysis before putting in any geothermal system. Okay it isn't rocket science, but it does take in thickness of walls and construction, type of insulation, thermal capacity of windows, altitude of the property etc.
Under Italian Law 10/91 this is required for all new builds. With reference to the up to 55% rebate, if it is for heating then you have to have a certification from a Thermal Engineer that you are saving a minimum of 20% through the "Green" heating. Rebate is normally for residents who are paying Italian Income Tax and has to be claimed back when you fill in your annual tax return.[/quote]

Hi Geotherm, sorry I bit over the plumber comment, not yours :reallyembarrassed:. You're exactly right, I'd want an analysis before any system like that was fitted. Also the systems being spoken about in rural locations in Italy would also need a lot more work and expertise than a simple GCH system in the UK.

Thanks Geotherm for the clarification. My solar panel is purely for domestic water heating, not for rads. My plumber told me that I could have applied for the susbidy in this instance. Thanks for pointing out that a professional is needed for something more expansive and more expensive (if the property befits) but surely worth it in the longer term vis a vis gpl based heating.

I have a gripe. It seems that Lotan has a vested interest in thermal engineering services judging by the webiste that he appears linked to (see [url]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/building-renovation/8815-conto-energia-2.html#post82995[/url]). If I am mistaken I am truly sorry.

Nevertheless, for the many unassuming readers (myself included) please would all posters state whether they have a conflict of interest in providing 'technical advice' (quotes intended) or at least make it clear in their signature as Geotherm does.

[quote=AdamInNarni;83463]so that's Euro 750 per month. Don't know where you live or how many sq.m your appartment is or how high the rooms are. November and Decemeber were quite mild where I'm situated. February is typically the coldest month.

[quote=Kerry & Susan;83483]Just expanding on the above comment and trying not to bite further :winki: it all depends on the system that is required (and sorry but I can only comment on the UK, Italy must surely be similar). A properly qualified time served tradesman will be able to size and fit a basic central heating system in an average sized house. If the house is peculiar or a specialised system needs to be fitted then yes an engineer will probably be needed. Just didn't like the way plumbers were described as just for putting tubes together, that skill can be taught in a week.[/quote]

Yes but you're missing the point; there are several ways to skin a cat and if your engineer does the skinning you can compare all plumbers against a uniform the uniform design and make your choice on that. You are in control!!

:SLEEP:

Adaminnarni

Typical layman….

If you wants your subsidy you ain’t got a choice -thermal engineer. They’re there for a reason they have no axe to grind whereas your plumber is there to make money (cynical but 30 odd years does that to you in the building game). If you want a certificate of habitation you’ll probably need to submit a thermal analysis (legge 10) – I’d like to se your plumber do that.

Now we’re back to the same old thread – professionals or not!
I can probably guarantee that your plumber has installed more than you require. He’s making the money on the materials and workmanship. And you are still paying for it in terms of wood and pellets or even oversized solar panels or even undersized accumulator.

A proper analysis would give you the optimum system for a reasonable cost – that’s the idea with an engineer. I’m sorry a thermal/heating engineer costing €1.500 for legge 10 and an optimal design – that’s not expensive that’s down right cheap.
Where you can pit one plumber against the other to get the best price or whip your favourite plumber to the right price.

That’s great value in my book!!

Read geotherms comments!!

[quote=AdamInNarni;83485]Thanks Geotherm for the clarification. My solar panel is purely for domestic water heating, not for rads. My plumber told me that I could have applied for the susbidy in this instance. Thanks for pointing out that a professional is needed for something more expansive and more expensive (if the property befits) but surely worth it in the longer term vis a vis gpl based heating.

I have a gripe. It seems that Lotan has a vested interest in thermal engineering services judging by the webiste that he appears linked to (see [URL]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/building-renovation/8815-conto-energia-2.html#post82995[/URL]). If I am mistaken I am truly sorry.

As I have pointed out before I don't tout for work on the web (on this forum) I work on referrals only and my own projects. As you can see from earlier threads heating is the number one concern for originators. I offer my opinion after having worked in the building industry for 30 years in 4 countries as a private person. My interest is to save laymen money and if this is best served by using professionals then so be it. Why would I bother with thermal analysis for a measly €1.500 - I think not...
:smile:

[quote=lotan4850;83505]Adaminnarni

Typical layman….

That’s great value in my book!!

Read geotherms comments!![/quote]

Sorry Lotan, don't buy what you have to say! For many of us involved in restoration projects, the sizes of our buildings are typically small to medium size, many of which are holiday homes, e.g. from 100sq.m town apartments to 250 sq.m country houses. Any plumber worth their salt should be able to work out what is 'an efficient heating design' - it's not rocket science, as has been said already. I'm willing to accept a mistake by the plumber for opting for an 8 element rad instead of a 6 element one, or an accumulator which is 50litres under capacity. Do the cost benefit analysis, is Euro 1500+ worth it in these instances? If I had a 500sq.m house then I would advocate taking advice from the 'professionals' and would never try to provide my own in a thread.

I repeat, for many of us suburban Brits (past and present), where winters are considerably longer and colder, I have never heard of anyone getting a thermal engineer to propose and design installations. Even new-builds might follow standard templates. By the way, I have just checked, my plumber has handled legge 10 for the solar subsidy on many occasions. Yes I am a layman (which I suspect you meant as derogatory), and proud of it when I hear so-called 'professional vested advice'.

You would be surprised what's on the market and how much you can save even on a 100 m2 town house - hey but if you want to fire up your hard earned cash that's up to you. As a layman you know best....

You'll never convince me that a yokel Italian plumber knows the first thing about energy efficiency and what advancements there are to regulate and steer boiler efficiency. He knows nothing about accumulator technology - when your boiler (termocamina) is rusted through in 5 years give me a call and I'll advise you for nought!

Cynical - I know - they are in it for what they can get out of you - sorry fact of life.
Vested interests are what I wear on a cold spring morning!

Further after confirming with the province a plumber is not permitted to do thermal analysises; obviously your plumber has asked for the services of a friendly thermal engineer to sign off on legge 10 (so you've paid for it anyway and probably too much!).
:smile:

[quote=lotan4850;83522]..........Vested interests are what I wear on a cold spring morning!
:smile:[/quote]

And I thought it was just your righteous indignation that kept you warm.

................[at least it seems to keep you well 'fired up' most of the time, what with yokel plumbers and corrupt geometras]

[quote=alan h;83525]And I thought it was just your righteous indignation that kept you warm.

................[at least it seems to keep you well 'fired up' most of the time, what with yokel plumbers and corrupt geometras]

.[/quote]

If it were only them; I'd be content. The building trade is riddled.

It seems hard to get the fact over to visitors to the forum that professionals if purchased are on your side; their job is to get you the optimum within budget. Make sure you are paying the right price and sourcing the materials ethically, morally and environmentally.

:smile:

Now now lotan, I know you like to be a little provocative, and for the most part I agree with your sentiments. However, to assert that geometras, plumbers and builders etc. are 'in it for themselves' and corrupt isn't entirely fair - they are simply incompetent and undereducated!

That's what I meant; do you mean I didn't get that across!

A touch of careful cynicism never hurt.

.. and the layman thinks professionals are a waste of space as well?? What is the building profession coming to..??

:winki:

Think this thread has diversified from Gas Tanks. I admit to know nothing about gas tanks, or gas heating systems. We had a oil fired Rayburn in our cottage in England and the only gas I use here is for the hobs on the oven.

Seems to be a lot of hot air being generated though!.
A

[QUOTE=AdamInNarni;83466]You're definitely right on your last point Lupo. Have spent much of the day outside warming up. Seems nonsensical with this weather to put the heating on. All of my windows and doors are open right now to let the heat in! Our thick stoned walls turn our house into a refrigerator . I could even turn it off to save on electricity.
Would be interested to know (and am sure others) how much your wood stoves cost - are they stand-alone?

Back to on-topic, we should all try innovative ways to heat our homes other than using costly GPL. Newbies should really be aware of the cost of GPL and the rates of consumption for a typical dwelling before contracting firms to supply with tanks and the gas itself. Yes, the installation costs of alternative heating systems are high, but compared to GPL they will pay for themselves pretty quickly. Do the homework based on economics and work out which system is best before blindly opting for GPL gas.[/QUOTE]
Just worked out the cost of heating & DHW for here as a comparison to some of the figures quoted earlier. Time scale is from mid Oct to end Feb. Heating set at 20C for 24hrs per day.
House thermal analysis heating requirement 9Kw, electrical energy required 2.2Kwh. Total cost excluding standing charges based on 0.21 cents per Kw = Euro 744.00

8839 Gas Tanks

Gas Tanks

The ownership of the under ground gas tank