8851 An Italian Perspective

Ciao,

I have been asked by Juvanita to post this on her behalf.

Hello,

My name is Juavanita and live just outside Penne, Abruzzo with my husband and 3 sons. I am fluent in English as I spent the first 21 years of my life living in Perth, Australia.

Together with my husband we run a small, but successful, building company here around Abruzzo. My husband trained and qualified as a general builder after he left school and has been constantly in the business for more than 26years. He has one brother who is an Architect and another who is a Geometra.

The reason for posting this is:

It has been bought to our attention that there have been a couple of derogatory posts about us here on the forum by 2 of our recent customers.

Firstly, can I say that both of these cases have gone to litigation and we feel this is not the place to resolve serious accusations of incompetence regarding our, or anybody else’s business. Only to inform you that this was the first place these people rushed to, to vent their frustrations, not us the builders would you believe.

Secondly, and we think more importantly, is that from the experience we have now of dealing with quite a few English customers - from an Italian perspective - that you could learn from their and other customers’ mistakes.
I am told that very few of you buy in England to re-structure or even build from architect’s plans, you just visit an estate agent, see a house you like at a price you can afford, employ a solicitor and leave it to them. To build from new, apart from anything to do with the Italian bureaucracy, timescale, chronology etc., requires a commitment from YOU the customer and that is WHEN & only WHEN you are sure of what you want do you start the whole process going.
A couple of the more common examples we have experienced are:

Building from new
When you give the go-ahead to a builder to start work from architect’s plans, that is it, you have committed yourself to that design. We have had experience of a customer who didn’t like what he saw being built so he said he wanted it changed mid-build. When he was informed how much & how long this would take, tried to claim that we had built it wrongly, so employed another architect to check the construction so far and found it was built to the dimensions stated on the plans. This ‘change of mind’ obviously created friction and animosity between us.

Renovating/Restructuring a Building
This is an even greater area of potential problems, but the same thing applies. Once you give the go ahead, any rectifications, mistakes are down to you. We have had experience of an English couple wanting walls removed, floor tiles removed, a fireplace removed etc. All this being overseen by the wife flying out on a regular basis. When the husband arrived after more than 1 year, he said he did not want/like some of t hese things done, so they blamed us for doing it without their permission. Fortunately we had it written down in a contract with his wife.

Both these building scenarios require to be paid for. I know this sounds obvious, but we suspect many of you require to sell your English house first to sponsor your Italian dream. As in England, we require stage payments as we build. The reason for this is to pay for both wages and materials. We believe one of the problems we are having with a customer above is a case in point as his English house has been on the market for over 2 years and still not sold.

This all goes to show that there are some people out there really need to think first before they set out on this journey. Things can be changed in the building industry, but it costs money & time & trying to blame the builder because YOU change your mind is only creating distrust but bad feelings on both sides.

Oh, by the way, I do not know if it is the same in England, but here in Italy if you refuse to pay because you do not like what the builder has done so far, the builder can get approval to seal the building, put his locks on it & only return the property to the customer once what is legally owed to him, so far, has been paid.

Again, do please think carefully first BEFORE you act when embarking on a building project here in Italy.

Regards
Juvanita

Category
Building/Renovation

That was such an interesting post, thank you Rob. It is refreshing to get a different point of view, probably the first time we have seen it from an Italian perspective?, I wish generally that more Italians would post to give a more balanced slant to the forum, but hopefully that might be the start of many.
A

Thank you Rob. The Italian perspective was necessary, particularly for those without experience in this field. As I always say, people should think twice before starting any renovation project or buying a property which would require renovation.

A very good post, but is does raise a few questions though.

How many members are dealing with the renovation work at "arms length"

What rights do we have, as clients,to withhold payment for bad work.

How many of us, have taken the plunge , sold up and moved over, as opposed to waiting to sell there house back in the yUK first.

We had lots of problems with a geometra, ranging from, bad site management, skimming off the builders payments, not getting the correct planning permissions,failing to meet deadlines ( set by them ), miss calculating measurements, failing to inform us about change of use fees, and finally trying to blackmail us by telling us that should we not pay there bill in full and on time , that they would double it.........nice.

And we where living on site the whole time.
We have close friends that have come across these exact same problems, so we feel that we are not a rare case.

I fully understand that we brits can be a bit nit picky, but at the end of the day we are the ones that foot the bill.

It must be in the best interest of all concerned that all matters,no matter how small are discussed and agreed upon from the out set.

And it would be helpful, if we could find out, if there is a professional body that deals with serious complaints ( from both parties ).

I would also like to add, that in the main, its very hard for Brits to get into the Italian working mind, but if you can find a like minded geometra, the results can be fantastic. Ask as many questions about the design as you can, ask around about the builders and geometra.
Just keep asking and pushing...........that should get you want you want.

[quote=deborahandricky;83247]A very good post, but is does raise a few questions though.

How many members are dealing with the renovation work at "arms length"

What rights do we have, as clients,to withhold payment for bad work.

How many of us, have taken the plunge , sold up and moved over, as opposed to waiting to sell there house back in the yUK first.

We had lots of problems with a geometra, ranging from, bad site management, skimming off the builders payments, not getting the correct planning permissions,failing to meet deadlines ( set by them ), miss calculating measurements, failing to inform us about change of use fees, and finally trying to blackmail us by telling us that should we not pay there bill in full and on time , that they would double it.........nice.

And we where living on site the whole time.
We have close friends that have come across these exact same problems, so we feel that we are not a rare case.

I fully understand that we brits can be a bit nit picky, but at the end of the day we are the ones that foot the bill.

It must be in the best interest of all concerned that all matters,no matter how small are discussed and agreed upon from the out set.

And it would be helpful, if we could find out, if there is a professional body that deals with serious complaints ( from both parties ).

I would also like to add, that in the main, its very hard for Brits to get into the Italian working mind, but if you can find a like minded geometra, the results can be fantastic. Ask as many questions about the design as you can, ask around about the builders and geometra.
Just keep asking and pushing...........that should get you want you want.[/quote]

I am just wondering if you read robs post correctly, because it appears to me,you are doing a ..... yes.... but. reply.:smile:

moved to www,italiauncovered.co.uk

[quote=Nielo;83253][quote=deborahandricky;83247]

And it would be helpful, if we could find out, if there is a professional body that deals with serious complaints ( from both parties ).

QUOTE]

I think that answers the question.

I have to admit that I find it very refreshing to hear ‘the other side of the story’. Sometimes I find it very depressing that so many people use this forum to whimge on an on about Italy, the Italians, Italian builders, Italian geometras, Italian architects, Italian doctors etc, etc.

Nowhere is perfect and I’m sure there are unqualified and shoddy workmen/women here, as everywhere, but there are probably just as many objectionable clients. I always try to ‘read between the lines’ and when people report repeated calamities I do begin to wonder if they are in fact going about things the wrong way and are the architects of their own problems.

Thank you Rob for posting this and I sincerely hope it is the start of greater involvement from Italians on this site to give a more balanced view of Italy and living here.[/quote]

Yes, but do not dispair, at the moment i am on an english caravanning forum.
Its sure tough on there,people with newcars and new caravans moaning how england was so much better in the 50s and 60s.

Boy am i having fun....:laughs:

Neilo

We probably fall into the catergory you have talked about and are 'Architects of or own Problems'.

We basically bought a house we liked and looked to the professionals we employed to do what they said they would within the budget we had agreed.Silly us.

Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

And we are, I admit perfectionists that is to say when we pay builders to put in a lintel and we find they have not put it in straight we tell them to do it again and this time get it straight.

When we pay 1,000 euros for a plaster job and a big crack develpoes we want that corrected.

On the other hand I can sympathise with the builders Rob's assisting as some people don't really appreciate exactly what they are taking on with these lovely old stone houses we Brits like.

We've certainly found when repointing we've had to totally rebuild walls around one window and on a part of the house! We needed to dig out a ground floor a relay a subfloor because of tree roots and damp.

However I really do hope that nothing I say on the forum is going to stop people buying a house in Abruzzo specailly as its a wonderful place to live!

Can't say that I've found any difference between UK and Italy when it comes to restoration/building work. English builders behave jsut as well/badly as in Italy. Our experience (though long and involving sleepless nights worrying about cost) has on the whole been as expected, particularly given that we could not be on site every day.

I've no complaints about our builder or our geometra (quite the opposite in fact).

My point is that I don't think its anything to do with being in Italy. The process is inherently frustrating and, a bit like childbirth, the finished product hopefully creates a blissful amnesia about the painful bits.

For many of us, buying a house in Italy while still living somewhere else certainly makes things more difficult. While those of you in the UK and elsewhere on the continent can visit fairly frequently, those of us in the U.S, Australia or elsewhere often have very limited time in Italy to inspect and buy the property, much less check on renovations.

We were lucky enough to find our house while on a one week visit to Italy. We were here only to look at areas and cities, and just stumbled upon our house, as I'm sure happens quite often. We were lucky to find friends who were both honest AND experienced. (NOT our agents, who were neither!).

Over time our friends in Italy helped find a reliable geometra for our renovations, and I have to say we couldn't be happier, both with the finished house, and also with the way the work was done. Certainly we know there are less than reputable people here, as there are everywhere, anxious to take money from unsuspecting foreigners, but if you can take some time to get to know the people of your area before committing, you might be better off. We were also lucky enough that we were able wait to start the renovations until after we had moved here. The idea of having renovations going on while we were still inthe states would be a nightmare for me.

We know people who thought that just finding an Italian who was bilingual was the answer to her prayers, but unfortunately just because you were born in Italy doesn't mean you now about real estate, building, or the laws involved. Dealing with a professional with a good reputation is the key, altho it's not alwasy easy to find that person.

We have our house listed for sale with several real estate companies as well as on our blog. We initially thought that if someone came to us directly thru the blog we could save them and us 3% each, but now I think that may be a mistake, especially if the buyers are foreigners. 3% will be a bargain for the buyers peace of mind to know that their purchase is being done legally, and that all the right questions have been asked and answered properly.

Finding a good geometra/architect might not be easy, but of course it can make all the difference in the world from having your project go from a dream to a nightmare. Best of luck to everyone who's still looking for that perfect property or who is renovating.

I too found it interesting to see this from a builder's side especially a builder in Italy however it sounds just like builders in London and Stockholm. It's a small world.

The idea with an architect & project manager is to pilot the client through the building process and explain to clients the manner in which things are done.

I recommend a bi-lingual architect preferably of English extraction. Employed by the client this should resolve a lot of problems for both parties as they speak the same language and I don't mean just Italian.

"When we pay 1,000 euros for a plaster job and a big crack develpoes we want that corrected."
just a quick technical reply to this as it's very important to understand:
if you ask for a plaster job without having the structure solid, than the eventual crack could of course depend on a mistake doing the plaster,but more often this is due to the wall moving...and there is no fault by the guy who made the plaster...of course he should have said that unless you make a proper restoration of the structure,no plaster could be guaranteed, but the surveyor has to check the problem and find the solution.
mcandrew
[url=http://www.marche-project-management.com]Marche Project Management[/url]

Ciao tutti,

Thankyou for your interest in my posting.

To LOTAN yes you are right. I see that wherever & whenever you have posted you have always recommended the 'qualified, bilingual way'. This may seem a good way of thinking you are covering yourself for any eventuality, but for you potential buyers, it does not. Why;

The problems that we have experienced are far away from any 'highly technical' academic decisions that local architects need to make.

Whoever it is that fires the start gun to proceed with a building project, a commitment has been made....TO START.

1, In Abruzzo there are many building regulations regarding the construction of ANY building as we are in an earthquake zone. So youDO NOT have, how they say, carte blanche, to build whatever you want.

2, Our situation, regarding the new build, was that the client walked onto to the site, turned, and said 'the sitting room is too small, can you enlarge it'?

3, When someone say's 'take up the floor tiles',or 'remove the fireplace', it does not need an architect who is bi-lingual to confirm that decision LOTAN, now does it?

LOTAN, i speak almost perfect english & i translate for people here all the time. So, as far as i am concerned, you can discount this as a problem to which we are experiencing.

Dear client, you are the master of your own destiny, as they say, so, be aware, you are the buyer after all, as LOTAN says, YOUR decision is final, YOUR decisions will cost you money, think hard. What we are talking about here is not just a 'lick of paint' change, but fundamential changes to clear & concise decisions that you have already agreed to.

Sorry LOTAN, but just to throw yourself against the 'use a bilingual architect', for us, does not wash.

Juvanita

Yes,
"preferably of English extraction"...?? Dio Mio, Io! I can't believe you committed such a bizarre idea to print.
Ouch! Still pinching myself!
Lupo

Hi Lotan

What's up?

From one of your early posts -' "As for 'beating the natives" a comment which has a racial/power overtone, yes your post is - provoking. It provokes me to say that I find this comment offensive... '

'One man's native is other's neighbour!' MY comment on the 'provoking thread.

"preferably of English extraction" your comment see above.

I suggest that the majority of us, who are Italian residents, on this blog see ourselves as incomers who on the whole enthusiastically appreciate the life we are allowed to live here, most of us chose freely to come.

I suggest more strongly that we are immigrants, and as such should learn to live within the Italian system - why the H*LL should they bow to us!!!. Who do the brits. think they are?

A thought for all who may dwell in the time of the Raj.

The 19th Century was definitely British
The 20th - the USA
and the 21st will be China's.

So let's get learning Mandarin!!!

Yes, Aretina, that type of criticism and attitude is annoying me as well. All nations experience ups and downs throughout history; however, Italy is still the 8th power in the world in spite of all their political and economic problems. We all decided that we wanted to have a link with Italy because of different reasons and we did it or are doing it out of our free will, nobody is forcing us. Italians must feel insulted many times by what is being said.

I completely fail to see why this thread has turned against lotan. His suggestion that a UK client uses a UK trained architect, familiar with Italian construction, and probably working in collaboration with an Italian geometra (if possible) is absolutely sound.

The trouble with domestic 'clients' (and this is something, which despite the diatribe which opened the thread) Rob and Juvanita have failed to grasp is that in general they understand very little about building construction, and even less about building design. Even more dangerously they do not know what they do not know.

Just to keep a balance, I am sure Italian clients are just as bad as English speaking ones!

Hi Charles

I suggest that no one has turned against Lotan personally, but against some of the opinions, words and phrases that he has used, see above.

[quote=Charles Phillips;83426]I completely fail to see why this thread has turned against lotan. His suggestion that a UK client uses a UK trained architect, familiar with Italian construction, and probably working in collaboration with an Italian geometra (if possible) is absolutely sound.
[/quote]

When does he say any of that? His suggestion doesn't imply finding somebody with knowledge of local building. Or of working with anybody else with that knowledge.

I think there are many issues here that could be discussed and discussed and discussed, my opinion is that taking on a restoration project is a complicated and difficult task, add to that not speaking the same language as your builder or architect and you don't need to be a brain surgeon to see that it is recipe for endless complications, most brits wouldn't take on a restoration in the UK. As a bi-lingual builder working in Italy, I find that the major problems are communication, even when we are speaking the same language, comunicating by email or telephone with an absent customer is difficult at the best of times, decisions need to be made on a daily basis, and some customers as has already been mentioned, just don't know what they want, when they return after a couple of months absence, and find things have been done as agreed by telephone or email, but not what they imagined in their heads, it is always the builders/architects/geometras fault, and it is here that bad feelings start to get in the way of coomon sense. For every "bad builders story" there is a "bad customers story".
It really only needs a bit of common sense, be clear about what you want, if you change your mind expect to have to pay for what will be in effect, extra work, if something is not as you imagined, be sure you have explained your wishes clearly, before taking your understandable frustrations out on the workforce.
Finally, before entering into a restoration project, consider carefully what you are letting yourself in for, you will not save money buying a house in need of restoration, it will be more expensive than the original quote,(changes of mind, unexpected problems and extra requirements are always to be expected), and it will be stressfull and possibly a decision that you wish you hadn't taken.
Of course, there are a great many projects that are relatively problem-less, and I can say that from personal experience the customer is the one who makes all the difference, the bulder at the end of the day, does what he is instructed to do by the customer.

Marco,

Speaking as a UK architect, I couldn't have put it better.

It even applies when everyone speaks the same language!

just a quick reply : when you say "you don't save money buying a house to be restored..." i agree that people may change their minds and this will affect costs,but, and very important :did you consider that when you buy a ruin you will know where your money is going, i mean the renovation cost but at least you are sure to have a solid house...what about "prepared" houses for sale? sometimes it's so easy and cheap to point external walls,close cracks and change a few beams on the roof...this is the most dangerous aspect on buying an habitable house, unless you can check all the photos during the works, speak with the technician and see the projects.
andrea
[url=http://www.marche-project-management.com]Marche Project Management[/url]

I feel I need to clarify my posting more thoroughly….

The idea is to pilot, lead by the hand, help understand, the client through building process. To do this against Italian builders, tradesmen and other professionals you need to speak the language .. this is fundamental thus the bilingual part.

The architect through his agreement with the client takes all the day to day decisions on behalf of the client. Too many decisions causes melt down with most clients.

If the PM or architect is worth his salt he will have discussed the criteria for the build beforehand eg. size of rooms, ergonomics, aesthetics, colours, aspects et cetera. Therefore a lot of problems of contention are resolved before a builder arrives on site.

Of course the client always has a problem with visualising a room size and it’s only when it starts to take shape that the problems start to appear; can’t we make it bigger? Of course you can but it’ll cost you – simple - not always.

With the use of a professional with a common sense approach and willing to take stick from all parties – it’s never been a problem and never will be.
Clients need a helping hand to understand. That is not to say that there are some real gems for clients out there and only experience helps the professional choose. Even I have made the odd mistake.

Of course the builder would prefer to deal direct with the client he can pull the wool over their eyes; whereas a professional is more difficult- the builder can’t make as much money. I’ve worked both sides of the fence and know most of the builders' crying games.

Now to the same language I mean both the language of Italy this is fundamental and then there is the language of the building industry … oh what’s that… how everything works with permissions, thermal calculations geometra et cetera. Et cetera…

… and finally to you friends and colleagues out there I don’t take it personally - I don’t feel set upon at all; I take a common sense approach to most of the problems on this forum. I relish your comments – Thanks sincerely!!

you are absolutely right, the problem is that often customers think to be able to manage everything on their own,trusting somebody without having checked properly, than,when they have a problem....they claim against italians builders! i have experienced this personally and my customers have been very lucky as i'm not a bandit, but...if i was? how easy would have been to make easy money with them!!
what we would need is somebody to start publishing a book in english about renovations: how it works,how to manage,to check,which are the common problems,how to resolve, which materials and how much they should cost,if and when to spend more following technicians's suggestions...and much more.....i started last year but had to stop as my days are too short!!
andrea

[quote=Rob;83399]Ciao tutti,

Thankyou for your interest in my posting.

To LOTAN yes you are right. I see that wherever & whenever you have posted you have always recommended the 'qualified, bilingual way'. This may seem a good way of thinking you are covering yourself for any eventuality, but for you potential buyers, it does not. Why;

The problems that we have experienced are far away from any 'highly technical' academic decisions that local architects need to make.

Whoever it is that fires the start gun to proceed with a building project, a commitment has been made....TO START.

1, In Abruzzo there are many building regulations regarding the construction of ANY building as we are in an earthquake zone. So youDO NOT have, how they say, carte blanche, to build whatever you want.

2, Our situation, regarding the new build, was that the client walked onto to the site, turned, and said 'the sitting room is too small, can you enlarge it'?

3, When someone say's 'take up the floor tiles',or 'remove the fireplace', it does not need an architect who is bi-lingual to confirm that decision LOTAN, now does it?

LOTAN, i speak almost perfect english & i translate for people here all the time. So, as far as i am concerned, you can discount this as a problem to which we are experiencing.

Dear client, you are the master of your own destiny, as they say, so, be aware, you are the buyer after all, as LOTAN says, YOUR decision is final, YOUR decisions will cost you money, think hard. What we are talking about here is not just a 'lick of paint' change, but fundamential changes to clear & concise decisions that you have already agreed to.

Sorry LOTAN, but just to throw yourself against the 'use a bilingual architect', for us, does not wash.

Juvanita[/quote]

Let's be fair - builders do not want professionals involved because they curb the profit margin.

A builder sees it only from his/her perspective; what about the poor client who knows absolutely nothing about the Italian building game. They haven't got a chance against the builder - advantage the builder.

If you read my original posting I mentioned being bilingual but also made the inuendo regarding the other language - which fell on deaf ears with the most. How things work is the improtant thing as well as the Italian.

The professional knows the game and pilots the client and ultimately this resolves problems before they occur and thus helps the builder; but for the reasons above the builder more prone to do without a knowledgeable professional.

:smile:

no gala p., personally i'm not offended,i know most of you would never think to something like this, if this guy think that he would get better help from an english architect...ok,i hope this eventual architect will be enough responsible to contact an italian one before any project!not because the italian one is more clever or professional,of course,but because it will take a couple of years to learn,understand and find the right "small tricks" with our laws! yes "tricks", which are the only way sometimes to resolve quickly burocratic problems or very old regulations, this way to approach is probably a bit difficult for an "english extraction" professional, but will save time and money!
ciao
andrea
[url=http://www.marche-project-management.com]Marche Project Management[/url]

yes charles,i agree about your suggestion and i can confirm that italian clients can be very difficult, much more than british, in my experience (where i never met difficult british!)
but wouldn't it be better to use this forum between you foreign customers saying : i had a goog experience with this builder,or a bad one with another, ans so on with surveyors,architects,town halls more or less complicate...etc? this will really help you all.than anybody could read "through the lines" and make his own decision. too many times english customers came here,met an agent,bought the property and than followed the agent in all the steps....if the agent is good..ok,if not?

[quote=Charles Phillips;83426]I completely fail to see why this thread has turned against lotan. His suggestion that a UK client uses a UK trained architect, familiar with Italian construction, and probably working in collaboration with an Italian geometra (if possible) is absolutely sound.

The trouble with domestic 'clients' (and this is something, which despite the diatribe which opened the thread) Rob and Juvanita have failed to grasp is that in general they understand very little about building construction, and even less about building design. Even more dangerously they do not know what they do not know.

Just to keep a balance, I am sure Italian clients are just as bad as English speaking ones![/quote]

[quote=Charles Phillips;83426]
......Rob and Juvanita have failed to grasp is that in general they understand very little about building construction, and even less about building design. Even more dangerously they do not know what they do not know.

Well said and thanks for the support Charles!!

:smile:

Might I suggest Charles that to you the opening thread might have appeared a "diatribe" but to others it seems it was an interesting perspective , and the other side of the story from an Italian point of view, it seemed well supported by members, and I found it refreshing and well balanced. I would not like other Italian posters to be discouraged from contributing to the forum, their imput is to be valued.
A

I would like to thank all the architects, builders and project managers that have posted for their valuable input into this thread.

[quote=Jane D;83720]I would like to thank all the architects, builders and project managers that have posted for their valuable input into this thread.[/quote]

Hi Jane
I never saw that coming :laughs:.......get website by the way....just wish I had thought of it ( damn ya ! ):bigergrin:

Jane I see where you're coming from but personally having been on this forum for about 2 years now I've found these posters /advertisers can pass on a lot of valuable information.

It's pretty easy to see from a web link at the bottom of the post if they are in business so they aren't trying to hide anything. Clients may well feel that they would rather use a person who has posted consistently valuable and helpful posts than a complete 'unknown'.

The people I despise most are those who come on a few times to big up an agency or service then dissappear.Spit in their faces by all means but leave the 'regulars' in peace we all have to make a living!!!!:no:

[quote=manopello;83735]
leave the 'regulars' in peace we all have to make a living!!!!:no:[/quote]

Thank you for telling me to shut up in such a pleasant manner.

I will of course do so and leave the "regulars" to post to each other.:SLEEP:

Sorry Jane if it came across like that I would hate for you to 'shut up' !

I just have my own views on this thread which aren't the same as yours but please carry on posting!

No insult intended.

Lotan,

You are so cynical that i want to tell this audience here that they should not take your outpoorings seriously.

'Builders do not want 'professionals' involved because they curb the profit margin', is absolute rubbish. What evidence do you have to make this wild accusation?

Can i inform you that my husband & I have tried to expand our business with english customers, (quote, the poor customer), not by alienating them, but by engaging with them & endeavouring to meet their requirements & not just to rip them off. It is them, as some of your previous posters have stated, that have had the problem with not knowing what they really wanted.

The part of your post that really makes me know you do not really know the Italian building industry here in Italy is your quote about 'professionals'.

As to your comments about being bilingual, have you been drinking, because you do not make any sense to me. Perhaps someone could enlighten me with regards to your comment 'regarding the professional knows the
OTHER language'.
I am italian, lotano, and i do not like the 'cover all' innuendo YOU infer.
The so called 'Professional that knows the game' does not really know the score. How do i know this, because my 1st brother- in -law is an architect with 2 offices here in Abruzzo, & my second is a geometra.

[quote=lotan4850;83674]Let's be fair - builders do not want professionals involved because they curb the profit margin.

A builder sees it only from his/her perspective; what about the poor client who knows absolutely nothing about the Italian building game. They haven't got a chance against the builder - advantage the builder.

If you read my original posting I mentioned being bilingual but also made the inuendo regarding the other language - which fell on deaf ears with the most. How things work is the improtant thing as well as the Italian.

The professional knows the game and pilots the client and ultimately this resolves problems before they occur and thus helps the builder; but for the reasons above the builder more prone to do without a knowledgeable professional.

:smile:[/quote]

Lotan,

You are so cynical that i want to tell this audience here that they should not take your outpoorings seriously.

'Builders do not want 'professionals' involved because they curb the profit margin', is absolute rubbish. What evidence do you have to make this wild accusation?

Can i inform you that my husband & I have tried to expand our business with english customers, (quote, the poor customer), not by alienating them, but by engaging with them & endeavouring to meet their requirements & not just to rip them off. It is them, as some of your previous posters have stated, that have had the problem with not knowing what they really wanted.

As to your comments about being bilingual, have you been drinking, because you do not make any sense to me. Perhaps someone could enlighten me with regards to your comment 'regarding the professional knows the game'.
I am italian, lotano, and i do not like the 'cover all' innuendo YOU infer.

The so called 'Professional that knows the game' is again, cliche,. How do i know this, because my 1st brother- in -law is an architect with 2 offices here in Abruzzo & his brother is a geometra.

The' professional knows the game', is a statement worthy of comedy here it italy.
'He resolves problems before they occur' please do not insult our inteligence..........and on it goes.

Dear reader, take all Lotan has expressed here in ths post with a very large pinch of salt, why, simply because we, here in Italy, think he lives in England.

We try, as a company & family, to generate confidence & reassurance to our customers with previous customer experience & confidence.
We do not judge all of you by one example, please do not do the same.

Regards
Juvanita

[quote=lotan4850;83674]Let's be fair - builders do not want professionals involved because they curb the profit margin.

A builder sees it only from his/her perspective; what about the poor client who knows absolutely nothing about the Italian building game. They haven't got a chance against the builder - advantage the builder.

If you read my original posting I mentioned being bilingual but also made the inuendo regarding the other language - which fell on deaf ears with the most. How things work is the improtant thing as well as the Italian.

The professional knows the game and pilots the client and ultimately this resolves problems before they occur and thus helps the builder; but for the reasons above the builder more prone to do without a knowledgeable professional.

:smile:[/quote]

A VERY interesting thread indeed and full of useful comments and info!

There are endless 'anti-builder/p. manager/etc' threads on here, and it seems that they never get the chance to respond. Well done to Rob/Juvanita for being brave enough to change it.

The thing is life is never simple, one cannot place an entire group of professionals into one 'stereotype'-everyone is different. The same goes for clients, not every client will necessarily be honest or indeed fair. I have experience of this both here in Italy, and back in the UK too. I remember my boss telling me how he often had clients insisting he finished work, with a promise of payment at the end....the game being to get away with the job done and done at miles less than it should be. He had them sending lawyers after him, but it came to nothing as he simply stated that if they paid, he would provide a receipt and do all the work as per he was paid, but of course, they never agreed as they simply did not have the money, or wished to get the thing done at half price or such.

This is a common game, it can happen in many businesses, the client will pick up on anything they can make use of, and claim the thing is a massive concern, and that they wish to pay miles less, or even claim for half the price of the whole job!!! The whole emphasis is on paying less, playing for guilt and making the professional feel they should charge less/discount or worse. This is an awful thing to do, and should NEVER be confused with those who come up against genuine problems, and try to go about them in a genuine manner. Any professional should be willing to discuss any issues with their client, however one should always approach the situation calmly and professionally, and not launch into abuse or attack....mistakes can happen easily in building, especially if the work is to be done on a very low budget.

I am sure Rob/Juvanita has had a taste of it; a sudden abusive mail/call/speech from out of nowhere, about one item or aspect, then demand for the work to be finished in full with discounts and so on...and payment later. Perhaps even a claim against them for a huge amount to be returned, based on the client's 'fury and disgust' about the item. The thing is the client may simply have changed their minds half way along, but it is sadly a fact that there are some who wish to get everything in life at a hugely cut price compared to everyone else. In such cases it appears the general public consensus is to side with the client, and imagine the builder/manager/other is automatically to blame and is the fabled 'demon'.

The main thing is to remain neutral in such instances, unless you can be certain beyond all doubt that you may rightly support one side or the other.

My advice to those renovating is simply to prepare all ideas and intentions before hand, use whoever they feel they wish to, but get a contract with them which covers every little item,(benefits both sides) and allow a contingency fee for anything extra that may come up.(anything from a wall falling down in part, to new regs regarding heating/electrics/and such, which could mean more work i.e. chopping, materials, material types, time of work and so on) remain calm and friendly as it seems that anything else does more harm than good here in Italy,(unless of course it is a clear-cut case of theft/overcharging) as we found with local builders. They give pity freely, but ignore threats and hassle.(anyone else found this?) And, importantly, check your price against other prices, get varied quotes, make sure each quote includes what the other did. Why not pay a translator to write a sheet or sheets of intended work in detail, with 'object of work finished entirely including all materials, labour and vat' and get each manager/builder/what have you to write the cost down next to each part? With project managers this could be written by you in English too, as with English speaking builders etc.

I could rant on but wont, just wanted to join in as someone who assists people with their renovations and general needs, and has seen both good and bad in clientel.

Best wishes one and all

Zac

Of course it is interesting to read the Italian perspective. You have the builder do all the internal construction..... electrician arrives with a Kango chisel and makes a horrendous mess in the new built walls........ new costs to refill great holes made. Plasterers come .. great work... finishing builder ruins a lot, then says it is up to painter to repair. Always anything to get a few Euros more..........

Juvanita,

First of all I apologise if I upset you - which I obviously did.

As a former contractor and working with contractors this was always a bone of contention with us “b***** surveyors”, et cetera. You obviously haven’t worked in the UK and this is my evidence - personal.

Don’t forget you have the advantage as I pointed out of knowing the language and the system (there’s the innuendo) where as the first time Brit newly arrived knows neither – there’s your advantage, your increased profit margin and your reluctance to use a professional.

The Italian geometras love the newly arrived holiday homeowners waiting to pounce and take their money. As I presume the builders are lining up as well.

A case in fact - local “UK based” Estate agents selling Italian property (now we’re opening a can of worms) have nearly always a large mark up on their properties advertised and the local estate agents are up in arms about it but can do absolutely nothing to stop it. I have personally negotiated and helped new arrivals to reduce the buying price by finding the same property on a local estate agents web site (but of course it’s in Italian).

To stop your guessing I actually live in Emilia Romagna; speak fluent Italian, English, Swedish. I won’t excuse my cynicism but working 35 years in the industry in four countries has made me so … my cynicism maybe exaggerated but it would help if the visitors to this forum took away with them a small amount of cynicism as they leave.
:smile:

i realise that this is quite an old thread but am sorry due to other things happening have really been a bit behind on looking at some posts here...

i find it interesting that the title of the thread is an "Italian " perspective and then it goes onto deal with talking about foreign ...UK clients...

anyway my thoughts... basically very few Italians would have a build projected and completed by people that are related unless they were also related...which makes the initial posting somewhat unusual and might add to complications if ...and i am assuming this the poster had her relatives draw up the plans and were also the project manager...and finally they were the builders ... am not saying this is wrong just that even from an Italian perspective it could lead to problems...

all Italians i know are very hands on in their approach to building projects...rarely do they allow a project manager to choose building companies... or even materials... they seem to want to be closely involved in all the process and the decision making...are generally much more painful to work with than foreign customers and are always changing their minds and their project managers and builders...

when it comes to materials Italians generally avoid letting the builders or the project managers buy anything...they always think they will be ripped...so they often hold up projects while they spend time getting stuff .. but they do like to do things this way and generally they believe they save money by doing so

Italians generally live near where they are building and know the local places to get deals... they have their own networks or friends and family to help...and you better believe an Italian network is very large... hence they source things and labour at much better prices.... work out better deals and generally are there each day or maybe just weekend to review works...

most Italian builds i know the owners will often take time off work to ensure that they control it all very closely...

so in my point of view this is a very un italian perspective... because it has little input from any Italian that has had a house built... or renovated... which we have three or four times now in Italy...and any works we had done were carried out pretty much in the way stated above...

so i reckon Italian builders have a very easy time with UK clients and make far more from a build than if they had Italian clients and that they also have a far greater amount of freedom to get on with it with much less arguing

that's my point of view as regards this thread... am sure i will get the usual replies about my lack of italianess... which in all honesty i find slightly ludicrous ...this is an english speaking site with an english speaking perspective...there are and i have suggested very many in the past ... several sites where those that feel uncomfortable about the englishishness of this forum could easily join and chat away in italian on their forums... with much the same being spoken of and the complaints and groans in much the same vein... only in another language

... however that's not to say i do not welcome all comments on my postings be it here ,there or any other forum ...or by any members be they of whatever birthplace...

All,
I know all of the parties (and Robert) in the aforementioned case. Firstly, I need to say that my wife Julz and I count them all as great friends and it is distressing to see what has resulted.
Our own experience of Juvinita and her Husband Ottavio has been first rate, they have completely refurbished our house some 2 years ago and did a fantasic job. If we had received this level of service in the UK we would have been very pleased so to receive it in Italy when so many things could have gone wrong to say we are delighted is an understatement.
One thing to bear in mind is that we all have a tendency to change our minds and as these are our dream houses we tend to look at them very passionately and not as we would if it were a business.
The Italian people we have dealt with have been very flexible and happy to accommodate any changes we have made BUT if you do this there will be cost and timing implications.
In short, not everyone is out to get you but if you embark on a major project ask lots of stupid questions and, if possible, change you mind as much as you want before the project is applied for and work has started; to do so afterwards is both costly and time consuming.
If anyone out there is considering using these good people contact me and I will arrange for you to see our house, this surely is the best way to judge someone rather than looking at various forums which can confuse as much as help.

:no::no:A very interesting post, unfortunately it really doesn’t surprise me at all. I would imagine that these kind of issues stem from either the total failure to understand or a flat refusal to understand how things are done in Italy, or an arrogant position of ‘I am Wright even if wrong. Its done this way in the UK so it will be done this way here isn’t the way to go. Also when considering the design décor etc of a new home think about it for a long time and then think about it again, it’s not like buying a shirt or dress you cannot simply take it back if you subsequently decide you don’t like it! Changes take time and money, but things are not that different here most people think that building/renovating a house is easy well it isn’t; that’s why we employ builders. The more unpleasant result of this sort of thing is this; if it starts to happen to often then it will become more and more difficult to find decent trades people to do the work. I know this may sound obvious but the term ‘when in Rome’ comes to mind.

Interesting, about "when in Rome". Take this true scenario about costs for a GSHP project in Abruzzo. Presumed received estimate from plumber to customer for connection initially Euro 6000.00. 3 - 4 weeks later reduced to 4100.00 Architect then asks an additional Euro 1500.00 for her work.
Customer queries with us the high cost, so we contact plumber direct, to find out that he knew nothing about the quotation as it was apparently made by the architect alone. We are very aware that she does not want him to have a GSHP, so this is also a point to be aware of if you want something specific that they do not agree with. Other contracters we have used have been perfectly straightforward and if the client has asked for additional work then the client knows there will be an extra cost.
We cannot blame the builders etc if we change our minds, but it is advisable to try and check that your quotation is as accurate as possible.

Have I misread this Geotherm? I am used to hearing of costs going up but in this case It looks to me like an overall saving of €400.00.

[quote=Nielo;87285]Have I misread this Geotherm? I am used to hearing of costs going up but in this case It looks to me like an overall saving of €400.00.[/quote]
yes an overall saving of Euro 400.00. Consider that the normal quotation for a plumber to connect one of these systems is circa 1000 - 1500. Architect has just played with the figures!!!
What I did not mention was that the cost for the excavations also increased from 4000 - 5000 within the same time period. so customer would end up paying even more. Normal cost for 2 x 120 mtr trenches approx 3000.00.

There are good and bad in both countries, of course. If you are thinking that you need to get into the Italian mind, maybe this isn't the country for you!

Any building work, especially renovation, if done at long distance is lilely to be problematic unless one employs some third party, like a quantity surveyor oversee it. And if you don't speak the language..... more chance of misunderstandings.

Just imagine someone buying an old place in England, a foreigner, speaks very bad English - one can just image what would/could happen!

At the risk of being bombarded, I have an English friend who is an architect who has been working very successfully here in Italy for a few years. He knows all this ins and outs. Be nice to me and, if your place is in the northern part of Italy, I could be persuaded to give his details.

My question is this;
Do people really believe that they know better than a professional with 20 or 30 years experience simply because their grandad or dad/uncle/brother in law was/is a builder?
Someone said previously that there will be fewer builders around who are willing to work for english customers, I agree completely, not only because of the communication problems, but also because there seems to be a lot of mistrust flying around, I am half english and half italian, and have worked in both countries, and italian builders, myself included are less likely to try and rip you off that your south london Boggit and Scarper Ltd, no offence to S Londons finest, I was on the right side of the fence when I was there, Many of the places where brits are buying, are small communities where doing a bad job just isn't possible, those who have done bad jobs, are normally out of business straight away, why? Because people talk. In the building we say that it takes a lifetime to build up a good reputation, but only one "bad" job to build a bad reputation.
A bad job, however, is not judged by professionals, so is it really a bad job?