9399 Mains water reservoir tanks and their siting

Aaah; indeed an important question.

Thinking of a country house, how far away is your contatore? Are there ever problems with water freezing in the water meter - even if it is below ground? Certainly our water company always issues warnings about 'using every trick you know' to protect your water meter! I was once advised to wrap an old jumper round it by the acquadotto guy who scoffed at the insulation on it. Secondly how does the pipe get from the contatore to the house or water tank/reservoir - is it above ground for a long, long distance or nicely insulated underground. From the tank to the house it is best underground and insulated. The tank itself if large enough may only develop a small layer of ice on top of the water. However the external unprotected pipes entering the tank will need to be drained in winter if the house is unoccupied and the tank may need to be filled and pipes to it drained when temperatures fall below 0.

I imagine there may be cleverer ways to deal with this situation if thought about carefully a while in advance.

[quote=lupo;88176]...............What I am puzzled about is........... whether there are circumstances in which they are allowable for (mains) drinking water. ..................[/quote]

In UK, its recommended that you shouldn't use water from a water tank in your roof for drinking [yes I know we all do it] because of the risk of contamination of the water [dead birds/animals, or more likely faeces from bird/animals that 'pop in' for a drink]

Similar advice would be sensible for tanks in Italy - although, if there is such a thing as a totally sealed tank, with regular usage [i.e - no stale water], perhaps you could drink from it.

The UK government recommends that....

"Always use freshly drawn water for drinking or cooking, taking it from a cold water tap supplied directly off the water mains. This is nearly always the cold tap in your kitchen.
When no water has been used in the house for several hours, draw off a washing up bowl full before taking water for drinking. This will ensure that you do not drink water which may have been standing for a long time in your pipework. .............

Do not use water from a hot water system or your bathroom taps for drinking or cooking because it usually comes from a storage tank in the loft and is not as fresh or as safe as water directly from the mains."

.

I wonder what the implications are for well water? We use this for washing and cooking (boiling vegetables) but never for drinking. The architect talked once about getting a chemical analysis of a sample but we never followed this through. Our external storage tank is constructed of reinforced concrete and the feed to the house (via autoclave pump to keep pressure consistent) comes from the bottom of the tank. It's hard to imagine the sort of temperature that would be needed to freeze the contents of the whole tank but I suppose that depends on where you are and the local climate.

[quote=lupo;88176]I wonder if anyone can help on this one. In England we tend to site mains water tanks in lofts and this can offer the advantage of a gravity fed flow to baths showers etc ... all well and good so far... In italy and much of the rest of Europe, I understand that domestic systems are often fed directly from the mains with no intervening tank, which is useful, since plenty of beautiful country houses are actually enhanced by the absence of an attic or roof space in which to sight such a tank. However, where mains pressure (or even mains feed) can fluctuate, a tank will help to maintain a reservoir as well as a steady (gravity regulated) flow and I have become aware of the practice of siting such tanks externally, in our part of italy. What I am puzzled about is how such tanks are protected from freezing up and whether there are circumstances in which they are allowable for (mains) drinking water. i feel sure there is a simple answer out there![/quote]
Quite the contrary.Firstly our mains supply is so powerful that most people have to install a reduction system to reduce mains pressure.Secondly as most modern or restored houses we have a resovoir tank (5.000 litres)and it is sited in the basement /boiler room.We do not rely on gravity but have a fully pumped water syystem throughout the building.I think the only reason they put it in the loft in the uk is habit (pre pump age?) and the fact that the tank attracts squirrels (?).
Our water company for the second year running has sent out letters recomending due to impending water shortages that people install a resovoir tank and pumped system which in a domestic context could result in having indipendence from mains supply for a day or three in the eventuality of a cut off of water for a couple of days.
a pumped system also means that more than one person at a time can have a proper shower whilst the dish washer and washing machine can all be used at the same time.

Here in Puglia we have our two cisterne for water -- one under the house (which helps keep it nice and cool), and one on the roof which "feeds" the house. We pump from our artesian well into the underground cisterna w/ an electric pump (fill the big cistern twice a month or so), then have a smaller pump (now electric, eventually solar) that keeps the roof cistern full via an automatic float switch (and that upper cisterna has a tightly-fitted lid). We did get the well water tested, amazingly high levels of calcium, so for drinking, ice cubes, and coffee we use the fontana in the village to fill our demijohns -- a weekly visit that the kids love, and use the well water for cooking/washing/gardening. Not much in the way of mains water in these rural agricultural areas, so we recycle our grey water as much as possible into the garden/grove/orchard.

Wow! Very many thanks for such informative and helpful responses so far. Alright, I'll own up. I sort of knew there wasn't a single answer or solution. In fact I'm almost relieved to know this. The comments about likelihood of total freeze up and the idea of siting two tanks and/or a tank in a basement room, have really got me thinking. The current proposal for my place in Umbria is to site the tank some way from the house and above it. I now realize that I need to check if this is because of the advantage of a gravity flow (at the moment We are talking separate feeds for separate appliances, which means a lot of expense re. all the lengthy pipework). If it turns out that gravity isn't the issue, I have two basement spaces, one of which is, in fact, the old cisterna; so, perhaps a tank placed here would save greatly on the cost and length of dedicated pipe runs. Time to talk with builder and idraulico, but at least I'm in a better informed position to do so!

Our water company for the second year running has sent out letters recomending due to impending water shortages that people install a resovoir tank and pumped system which in a domestic context could result in having indipendence from mains supply for a day or three in the eventuality of a cut off of water for a couple of days.

Are you on the same water company as us Sebastiano, as we have not had any sort of communication and we are not that far away from you? Our company is Ciip and I must say we have had no problems with the water supply in the last 3 years.

I agree with everyone who has said that you can position the tank without respect to gravity, just use a pump. You can also (if you are short of space) get a reservoir tank which is designed to fit underneath an internal staircase (sort of triangular in section). As sebastiano has suggested, this sort of installation is very much 'everyday' - nothing special or expensive, and because it is 'closed' the problems of pigeons shyting in an open tank do not arise, so the water is as drinkable as the comune water. (Sometimes comune water is dodgy, but generally it is perfectly potable.)

Sebastiano, I'm probably nit-picking, but the use of gravity, instead of a pump, doesn't preclude equal pressure for appliances used simultaneously, provided the appliances have their own separate feeds from the tank. It's more than just 'habit' that puts tanks in lofts in the UK. And yes there's squirrel's in the basement and the mice are in the loft!

[quote=lupo;88176]What I am puzzled about is ..... whether there are circumstances in which they [tanks] are allowable for (mains) drinking water. i feel sure there is a simple answer out there![/quote]

According to our plumber five years (of course, he may not have been right) it depends on the tank size. Unfortunately he did not say what size, as we were exceeding it by a great deal to give sufficient storage for times when the mains supply pipe freezes up.

What he also said (and implemented), was that if you also install a direct feed (with cut off valves) to use as an alternative to the tank, this maintains the official habitability of the house, for which a drinkable water supply is required. It also allows you to clean and maintain the tank and its pipework without interrupting your supply. Or you needn't actually use the alternative supply at all.

For anyone who is worried about bacteriological contamination from large tanks or from a well or spring water supply, an ultraviolet steriliser is very simple to install and use (though needs the light-bulb changing once a year or so). I used to use a cheap one of these on the kitchen tap on a spring water supply in the UK, to satisfy local authority water testers who now require supplies to fulfil EC regulations of 0% [I]e.coli[/I], even though people have been drinking much higher contamination than this for millennia.

This is the sort of thing I mean [url=http://www.emwc.co.uk/products2.asp?CategoryID=18&SubcategoryID=30]EMWC East Midlands Water Company - Filters, Softeners, Water Coolers, Purifiers, Chillers, and Limescale Eliminators[/url], though I have seen similar items on sale in Italy cheaper. And you need to buy in Italy, because of the need to get matching replacement bulbs.

Very helpful indeed, thanks Bosco

[quote=bosco;88270]
, though I have seen similar items on sale in Italy cheaper. And you need to buy in Italy, because of the need to get matching replacement bulbs.[/quote]

Would be grateful for any Italian supplier details, thanks

When you have an autoclave on the system, yes its nice to have a pressurised water supply - no need for a pumped shower, but the old electric supply situation raises its head again. If you are on the standard 3Kw supply it can be sufficient to trip things when it kicks in, especially if you have a couple of heavy appliances working at the same time eg electric kettle and electric oven.

[quote=anne2;88298]Would be grateful for any Italian supplier details, thanks[/quote]

If it's like the UK, you're probably best buying over-the-counter (after ordering) at your local plumbers' merchant. - because when it comes to replacing the bulb you will need a local source who is willing to order it for you, and each plumbers' merchant is likely to deal regularly with only one or two suppliers of UV systems. The bulbs are quite expensive, so (in the UK at least) plumbers' merchants don't keep them in stock. And they're not the sort of thing I'd necessarily want to trust to the post.

Italian plumbers' merchants aren't always very obvious. In my area there are two (a trade counter round the back of a large bathroom showroom, and the trade counter of just one of the many builders' merchants). So you may have to ask around to find one.

Here are two links to help with vocabulary and with pictures that may help you to ask questions at a plumbers' merchant:

[url]www.atasrl.it/cataloghi/Depliants/Italiano/Vari/Sterilizzatori%20UV.pdf[/url]
[url=http://www.anacquaria.ch/aaa_impiantiUV.htm]Anacquaria SA[/url]

Many thanks, was just wondering if there was a particular company you would recommend.
I found an Italian site accessible from the link you gave but they do not seem to be quite as comprehensive as the UK site - language is not an issue and even if the cost of each bulb is high I am sure it would take many years for the cost of replacement bulbs, filters etc to exceed the price quoted to be connected to the mains!

Thanks again

A bit off subject I know but if all things are metric in Italy why are internal water connections 1/2"??

[quote=Geotherm;88251]Our water company for the second year running has sent out letters recomending due to impending water shortages that people install a resovoir tank and pumped system which in a domestic context could result in having indipendence from mains supply for a day or three in the eventuality of a cut off of water for a couple of days.

Are you on the same water company as us Sebastiano, as we have not had any sort of communication and we are not that far away from you? Our company is Ciip and I must say we have had no problems with the water supply in the last 3 years.[/quote]
Hi,we are on CIIP, several comunities near us(also with CIIP) had no water for over three days consecutive last summer,they may tend to leave alone the smaller more rural comuni.In any case they put up posters here and there and i suppose will do again in the late spring.Concerning tanks and drinking water our resovoir is made in 18/18 stainless steel specifically for foodstuffs it has a steel lid bolted on and as an official business we have to have the water analysed every three months and keep them,so there is no problem for drinking the stuff as yet ,the health inspectors informed me that the water company only guarantees the water quality at the pumping station not that which comes out of the tap.Happily we have one of the best sources in the country and the water is rarely subject to chemical additives.Despite being at 1.500 feet and having quite severe winters we have never had a frozen pipe here (15 years) .we do however have regular beakages in the line which comes to us,which is old and periodically is ploughed through by my neighbours it sometimes takes them 2-3 days to fix it so once again the tank can help.still think it's better in the basement/ground floor/cellar or whatever rather than up in the roof....

Thanks Sebastiano, for that. We also have old pipes running down the road to the house and the main problem is when they do any work it ends up with loads of muddy water and loads of filter cleaning.

Its only recommened on the yUK because of Napolean, the Duke ofWellington was so worried about the invasion that he told people to store water, there is no need really if you have mains water............

Oh you of too great faith. Some areas of Italy regularly have water problems in the summer period. Sometimes people have to fill tanks at night and mains water is switched off for part or all of the daylight hours. Others suffer from winter cold and provision may be needed. Best to learn from others experience and know the reputation and service performance of the local water company before deciding whether a holding tank is needed or not.

[quote=anne2;88330]Many thanks, was just wondering if there was a particular company you would recommend.
I found an Italian site accessible from the link you gave but they do not seem to be quite as comprehensive as the UK site [/quote]

Sorry, I don't think I know enough to recommend one. And the one I used to have in the UK doesn't seem avaiilable in Italy - the same company only offers this (at the bottom of the link): [url=http://www.culligan.it/settore/prodotti/consumer/]Elenco Prodotti Culligan[/url]

Anyway, I'm not sure that the company matters very much. It's a very simple technology indeed - no moving parts, and all that's necessary is the ability to seal the waterchamber and probably buy-in the right u/v lightbulb from someone else..

The key issue is whether (like I did) you're going to go for the cheapskate solution and only have disinfected water on a cold supply in the kitchen, in which case the cheapest available will do. Or whether you're going to do the whole house, in which case you'll have to calculate your maximum flow and buy accordingly.

One other issue is that some people say that you can taste hot plastic in the water if you buy a plastic one, and that a stainless steel version is therefore better. Could never taste it myself - but it's worth reporting.

I haven't managed to find a comprehensive Italian supplier like East Midlands Water. But on a brief search I've found five more Italian manufacturers, none of which seem to sell direct to the public, and this one direct sale possibliity: [url=http://www.aquaeuro.com/it/Details_it.asp?ProductID=360]Aquaeuro - Sistemi ad Ultravioletti- Filtraggio a raggi ultravioletti 4 litri al minuto[/url]

So I think that, as I said before, talking to plumbers' merchants is probably the best bet. They'll have catalogues of the people who supply them, and if well or spring water is common in your area they may even know what they're talking about.

[QUOTE=bosco;
So I think that, as I said before, talking to plumbers' merchants is probably the best bet. They'll have catalogues of the people who supply them, and if well or spring water is common in your area they may even know what they're talking about.[/QUOTE]

Will certainly go along and have a chat - in the past when we have mentioned it hands have been thrown up in horror at the very idea! All our neighbours are fixed on bottled water (even those on the mains with drinking water on tap) or using the local public fontane.

[quote=anne2;88480]Will certainly go along and have a chat - in the past when we have mentioned it hands have been thrown up in horror at the very idea! All our neighbours are fixed on bottled water (even those on the mains with drinking water on tap) or using the local public fontane.[/quote]

Good luck with this!

Another idea might be to ask around your friends for the name of an enlightened plumber. They do exist - ours (living in our very small village) is a technological enthusiast, who visits trade fairs and delights in knowing about new technology for central heating, water-softening etc. I haven't asked him about U/V because I don't want it in Italy - but I'm sure he'd enjoy rising to the challenge. particularly as there'd be work in it (though not much -it shoud be a fairly small fitting charge).

Interesting the reaction of your neighbours. It was similar in our area of the UK when the council first started testing small private springs. Except that, far from buying bottled water, everyone (including me) wanted to go on drinking the same free polluted water that had always been drunk - 'what was good enough for our parents and grandparents' is good enough for me' etc. But having been stimulated into finding out some of the diseases you can catch if you're very unlucky, I came to accept that U/V sterilisation might actually be worth paying for.