11892 Compassion

This will be my last post - didn't last long did I?

Moderators - I strongly feel that you ought to have nipped this awful situation in the bud rather than allowing it to escalate to this level. Surely a gentle word in the right ears early on would have prevented much of the persecution that has been recently perpetrated within the walls of this forum.

To all of the contributors who have been a part of the recent bullying - I am aware that I am lowest of the low, and no I haven't had time to contribute much in the way of posts or grazies or indeed much of anything at all. I am finishing with the forum today and as I am, I believe, as entitled to a say in the same way as anybody else I will be brutally honest with all of you.

This evening I wrote a short post in 'puzzled' that was intended to be somewhat sardonic, after I had posted it I realised that in fact it could be misconstrued as an attack in itself. That was the point where I realised that I want no part of this, I felt physically sick.

Frankly, I do not care how much of a nuisance the victim is - she is a human being and one that obviously spends much of her time on the forum enjoying being part of a community that has formerly accepted or at least tolerated her. She is neither a wart nor a flea.

Have some bloody compassion - God forbid that one day you are lonely or desperate to receive some attention however good or bad ...

I am not a do-gooder just a regular person who is ashamed to be a part of this forum.

Category

Circolo di Conversazione

Alas - what you have said here has been said by many - myself included - time and time again.

But you are right - you [I]are[/I] new and for that reason you are, unfortunatley, unable to see the reverse side of this particular coin. It is something that has been allowed to fester by weak and often one sided, partisan moderation and administration.

Dear SpiderPig

I once (when I was new to the forum) wanted to take the stance that you have taken. I didn't for whatever reason.

I stuck around and now I can't agree with you.

Sorry to see you go Spider. I have been with the forum since the beginning and I [B]do[/B] agree with you. My advice (which I really should take myself) is to keep out of the Circolo and enjoy the rest of the site. There's lots of very useful info on here, and the possibility of making friends in real life as well. For that reason, although I've said I was leaving in the past, it didn't last. You don't have to post - just lurk if you like (though apparently that's a crime in some people's book).
There's a faction here - and I guess it's the same on every forum - who think they own the place and seem to lose all trace of the milk of human kindness once they get into "pack" mode. One particular poster gets their goat. She can be annoying, but easily ignored. And I speak from experience.
It does you credit that you worry so much about what you've posted, and how it may be misconstrued. The behaviour of others does them no credit at all, and makes you wonder why they haven't got something better to do.
Hope you read this - though no doubt the replies to this post will only confirm you in your decision

I agree with you Anne, and have also been on this forum a long time, and there have been times when it became so unpleasant and bullying that I wanted to leave, perhaps Spider may have a change of heart.
The almost constant references to Sally which crop up in many posts, either as a snide aside or something more obvious should have been dealt with by the moderators, and no doubt they are offputting or at least confusing for new members and guests, and do the forum no favours.

There are many positive aspects, which is why I am still here, I have met some lovely friends through the forum, and have been supported when we had difficult times here, and its still a place where we can help each other, pass on information, and share our love of all things Italian...well almost all.!
A

Hello Spiderpig

I've just read your touching "final post" and had it not been about Sally Donaldson I would have had to agree with every word you have said.

However, it is about her and so I cant have too much sympathy on this topic as it has been an ongoing and increasingly sad situation for the past three years - with nothing ever being done to curb the outrage, anger and frustration an ever growing number of members have towards this situation.

Despite many, many attempts by those frustrated and also those opposed to the frustrated ones, (who I am sure will give you an opposing point of view), Sally refuses to change the habits she has that perpetuate this animosity towards her. Many members of this forum have had enough of the underhand edits and deletions, the snide remarks and manipulation - which not only occurs within posts and threads, but also through the e-mail and PM system - which is where a large part of the REAL problem lays - hidden away from the main forum as it is "behind the scenes" and out of view of the vast majority of the membership.

We are not people who are filled with malice and spite towards Sally, but she is her own worst enemy. We have been down this path far too many times before to allow the behaviour to continue unchecked. This forum is a very valuable resource for many - not just Sally - which is not only a depository of information, but also a community that would be more than willing to accept Sally if only she were able to curb some of her more unsavoury habits, many of which are never seen by a large group of the membership who do not frequent the forum at certain times when Sally is most active. By the time these members log on again - they only see the remnants which have been heavily edited - and cause total confusion.

It's not just the constant posts of endless links or even the contents of those posts, it's not only because of the antagonism shown towards many who disagree with her for whatever reason, it's not the editing and/or deletion of her posts when she knows they have been read, or the manipulation of portraying that she is the victim, it's not only because of the way this manipulation leaves others looking as if they attack for her no reason, it's not only because of the constant whining and complaining to others should a thread go off topic, or even because she is the worst offender for taking a thread off topic, it's not even because until the "who's online" facilty was disabled she spied on everyone, it's not because she constantly misuses the PM facility to warn newbies off certain members, it's not even because she follows people around the internet or because she accuses them of doing things that only exist in her imagination. It's not even because she takes screen shots and uses it to further her case in turning people against those that she considers deserve this negativity. It's not even because she has stated it is her life ambition to ensure certain members get banned. It's not even because she goads some of those members into a manic state or ignores pleas to respond to the infamous "olive branch" that has been offered so many times in the past.

It is because of all these things combined - and many, many others besides - that an ever increasing number of people here have said enough is enough and are finally prepared to say this situation needs to change somehow. This is a democracy where the majority do not rule - it seems that Sally rules, but we didn't crown her as our Sovereign and it's time she understood once and for all that she is not the Queen Bee of popular choice - simply because of the way she attempts to rule.

However, all that aside, I'm very sad to see you want to leave the forum, but I respect your right to do so.

Once again, thank you for your kind birthday wishes.

Dear Spiderpig

I will be sorry to see you go, new blood, ideas, information and passion are always in demand. I have been around on the forum for about 3 years now, so also something of a newcomer. I have found this forum a mine of information and with my increasing experience of life here in Italy (approx.6 years) have been able to pass on a few tips which I hope have been useful to some and possibly entertaining to others, although quickly noted by others, I'm the practical sort not so good with the one-liners or the graphics.

The forum has changed and IMO not for the better, I don't believe there are cliques, but I do believe that some people feel passionately, No, they get very upset when they are singled out and targeted by another - for many of us - there is only one other! I have only been the victim a couple of times but it does alter your perspective. I have done my best to understand what drives this behaviour on the forum and up until very very recently was able to let it run. But sometimes, enough is enough.

You mentioned bullying, and from a first glance, I can understand it could look like that, but there is so much history - hidden and onscreen which explains other forum members posts. I think this matter has 'come to a head' after last weekend's very entertaining 'Dear Aunty P' thread, This was an example of a forum community having some fun! It felt fun too! But, just like so much else, it ended in tears. Only one person was responsible for this. This is very very sad. You titled your thread compassion, and I for one have tried to understand 'Why' and many have tried to make this an inclusive forum - celebrating our diffences but it seem like to no avail.

Just how I feel today, 'sad...in cyber world'.
But, now after just a few thoughts - the real world calls..

[quote=SpiderPig;113427]........................Frankly, I do not care how much of a nuisance the victim is - she is a human being and one that obviously spends much of her time on the forum enjoying being part of a community that has formerly accepted or at least tolerated her. She is neither a wart nor a flea.

Have some bloody compassion - God forbid that one day you are lonely or desperate to receive some attention however good or bad ...................[/quote]

I have a great deal of sympathy with the above statement - whilst all of us at some time are likely to upset another member, [I know I have]. I have found it is usually sorted out with an exchange of PMs, and the matter is hopefully sorted and forgotten

If there is a member who really 'gets your goat' and you cannot reach an accommodation with, --may I suggest the following course of action.

-----Do not rise to the bait - you only feed the feeling of importance of the person who is annoying you [assuming that is the reason for the posting]

-----Do not post anything is response to whatever the poster 'posts' - he/she will eventually get the message [and I know it will take time], that his/her contributions are not deemed worthy of response

Hopefully this will stop other members being 'put off by the 'back biting', which I for one find very frustrating

And when the message has got across, and the poster starts posting sensible postings - treat them as any other postings [i.e. - no 'sarky' welcome back messages]

Then we can all put the toys back in the pram and play happy families.

Good points Al, and I guess if all these fail there is always the ignore button (yes I have now found it guys!) and have used it for the first time, but cannot decide if the message it sends re not viewing the post is more annoying than the post itself!. But Robert thinks its very funny to be able to "switch" people off, and wishes we could do it in the "real" world.
A

Hello all,
I was going to do some pms but it looks as though this is the way forward.
Yes not being a veteran of this forum does give a different perspective on this sort of situation. JC's post was illuminating and reinforces a few other posts and pms.
I had searched the posting history of SD, which although prolific seemed innocuous. A history unfortunately is only one side, plus deleted posts will not be there, so the picture can only be warped.
Whilst non of us have to read, much less engage with any posts that we don't want to it is difficult not to at times. If we only read the informative posts, then the forum could be lifeless and dull, just a list of tips. Obviously the mild baiting,banter,retaliation, bullying , whatever has risen to an unacceptable level for some of us.
I for one will be continuing in this forum. I have had some good laughs at some of the posts and gained knowledge and have my own experiences and observations to offer.
Spiderpig come back! My friends list has halved!

I have been a member for about 4 years now and took a break of a year or more for exactly the same reasons as Spiderpig. I almost took the same decision a few weeks back, as I too was getting thoroughly pi$$ed off with all the riduculous back biting and so forth that was going on. Frankly I don't give a flying fig whether anyone feels they are justified in the way they feel about another member and I certainly cannot be bothered to read endless explanations as to why they feel the way they do.

I really don't care and I think many other forum members feel the same as I do.

This place is supposed to be a forum to exchange views and information on Italy and those who get pleasure from nit picking, starting fights, back biting or encouraging others to form bad opinions of other members driven by their own experiences really need to get a real life and leave this forum alone.

I am my own person, I do not need other people to tell me what I should think or believe about others, that is for me and me alone to decide.

It is all a rather unfortunate situation on this forum and I like to think that I have a fair way of judging people as no one knows quite what that person has experienced in life and thereby shaped their views and actions.

I am not a prolific poster and have watched this situation develop with bewilderment at how one member has been allowed to upset the apple cart whether that may be unintentionally or not and seen other members who I feel have tried to help that person but through sheer exasperation bitten back,had a severe set of rules applied.

Of course there is more to this privately that I certainly do not know about and am not privy to (nor do I wish to) but I do find it rather sad that the whole point of this forum is to revel in all things italian and that if we all lived in the same village as this person we would either ignore them or view them as just someone rather eccentric.

In conclusion I tend to agree with you Spiderpig in principle but understand the frustration felt by others and urge you to have a rethink and join in the bella vita here.

Ciao

JoJo

Spiderpig, it will be a sad thing if you leave the Forum as we need more people like yourself in it. These fights have been going on for quite a while now, they started well before I joined the Forum and I have also been at the "receiving end" on some occasions: however, I think that I can take care of myself. On the other hand, it is my philosophy to show goodwill and understanding to everyone as I share in the idea that the Forum is made of many points of view and different personalities and that they all contribute to make it a more interesting place.
Trying to hurt or to annoy people is only a recipe for disaster. I would not put the blame on one person, it is generally a combination of factors that creates an unpleasant situation and this particular one has been going on for too long.
If we could all - and I really mean all - show a bit more tolerance and restrain ourselves from posting unnecessary, offensive, malicious or any other kind of messages which may annoy or hurt others, this would be a much better place to be in. Having said that, I do not mean that we cannot have good fun, but it should be something we could all enjoy.
There is no better moderation than self-moderation and we are all grown ups. And my message is for everyone in the Forum, including myself.
If we do not do something in that line, we will start loosing valuable members.
I do hope that you will reconsider your decision, Spiderpig.
As I always say "PAX VOBISCUM".

When I was new to the forum, I saw something I thought was unfair and I spoke out about it. I was not part of any clique but because the person I spoke out for was perceived by Ms Donaldson as her enemy she then added me to her black list and swore to rid the forum of me.

That is history and I have tried to change the situation but all olive branches have been snapped and shoved back in my face.

I have Ms Donaldson on my ignore list but the ripples of her activity appear all over the forum.

I live in Italy. I have gone through all the processes of obtaining codice fisacle, residency. health cover, a telephone etc etc. I can give advice from a personal experience perspective, yet this forum seems to favour those who can only google an answer.

Many times I have wanted to leave but I refuse to be hounded out by someone who has a major problem and has sworn a vendetta against me without ever knowing me.

So I will be sticking around because I believe that if Ms Donaldson’s behaviour is allowed to ruin this forum many people who need useful advice won’t get it!!

By posting this I may well get banned, thus I may be playing into Ms Donaldson’s hands but if I refuse to be bullied does that make me a bully?

Spiderpig, I wish you would stay if only to see the truth.

Couldn't we all shake hands, forgive and forget?

Oh how I wish we could but it takes both sides Gala and I have been here before!

I am perfectly prepared to bury the hatchet but not to make myself an easy target for false accusations again.

I am a person who does not hold grudges but I do need the other party to genuinely agree to end the animosity too and that has NEVER been forthcoming.

If Ms Donaldson wants an end to this all she has to do is meet me half way.

Sally the ball is in your court and I will take you off my ignore list in case you reply.

It's pretty simple really, just ban the troublemaker. It won't be the first forum she's been banned from.

I have just thought, would someone who might not be on Sally’s ignore list please quote my post so that she can read it and reply?

Thank you in advance.

As requested Nielo.
[quote=Nielo;113489]Oh how I wish we could but it takes both sides Gala and I have been here before!

I am perfectly prepared to bury the hatchet but not to make myself an easy target for false accusations again.

I am a person who does not hold grudges but I do need the other party to genuinely agree to end the animosity too and that has NEVER been forthcoming.

If Ms Donaldson wants an end to this all she has to do is meet me half way.

Sally the ball is in your court and I will take you off my ignore list in case you reply.[/quote]

[quote=Nielo;113511]I have just thought, would someone who might not be on Sally’s ignore list please quote my post so that she can read it and reply?

Thank you in advance.[/quote]

There you go Nielo, your message has winged it's way...
Let's hope that Sally takes up your offer.

Optimistic of Sarnano

Charles, I do not think that much is achieved by banning people. Self-moderation in every aspect is the answer. I would really like to see an agreement reached.

I would dearly love to agree with everyone who says ‘let it go’, ‘don’t get drawn in’, ‘keep the peace’. Normally, I do, I don’t and I have.

And then I thought, hang on, [I]‘what on earth did I do?’[/I] on the Auntie Persephone thread, for it to end in the way it did?

What happened is that Sally happened.

A mean spirited, spoil sport.

She is adult enough to understand and take responsibility for her own actions. If she does not like how members respond then, she, like SpiderPig can leave.

How about - if you don't like Sally's posts/presence, grit your teeth and just ignore the majority of her harmless posts/threads entirely.

Ok, several have suggested this already, and it's easier said than done, hence the repeated stramashes. Therefore: also start to immediately report (via the red triangle) every post of hers that you feel to be intentionally inflammatory, factually incorrect or inappropriate/bad advice (giving detailed justification) rather than get into flame wars mid-thread. Without any public indication of this action there would presumably be a lot of individuals making reports per offending post.

This would have three clear benefits:

a) Sally would quickly become aware that she was being scrutinised in this way, and could "self moderate" if she was able.

b) If there are enough such valid reports submitted, moderators will have no option but to start editing/deleting the offending posts, which should provide Sally with constructive and independant feedback as to her behaviour - as opposed to public scorn.

c) moderator edit/deletion of any offending posts would clarify to the general membership how often wrong or poor advice was being offered up (and would therefore help them understand the levels of frustration experienced by some others)

If she were to fail to learn lessons from this, the moderators would presumably have to take more serious action, leading ultimately to a ban - if only to get rid of the burden of dealing with the volume of justified reports being generated, and the ?

None of the above implies any sympathy for any particular point of view (i.e. that Sally posts rubbish or that there is a conspiracy against her) - it just acknowledges the undeniable fact that many regulars dislike many of Sally's posts, and it proposes a more productive way of them expressing that dislike using the existing forum tool which (if their objections were indeed valid) would eventually result in her re-education or eventual explulsion.

Always good to get a balanced view Percy!, and for a new member yourself I am surprised that you should suggest that Spiderpig should leave if they dont like it. They were expressing an honest point of view, which I support. You may not like it, but opinions that differ to yours are acceptable on this forum. We all disagree at some point, but whilst I can appreciate you are upset, I do take exception to your comment.
A

Sorry about any confusion, AngieandRobert, my reference to SpiderPig was they had decided to go not that I wanted them to. Infact they have prompted some well written and considered responses. And, I would prefer them to stay on the forum as I have enjoyed their other posts.

Have you noticed the one thing (or is it many) that shines through like a beacon on this thread?

It's title sits well as it is demonstrating the level of passion, and [I]com[/I]passion, that many of us feel for Italy Magazine Forums and what it means to many of us 'regulars'. We are proud to be part of it. To be given the opportunity to help other members who are wondering if they 'dare' take the risk and do what many of us have achieved to one degree or another.

What [U]is[/U] missing, and on reflection has been missing ever since I've been here, is the same demonstration of passion and caring for others by one particular individual that this thread has shown .

In fact on the majority (if not ALL) of these, what I call [I]"threads where we all contemplate our navels[/I]", and where we seek to find sensible and amicable solutions for others, there has been one glaring ABSENTEE throughout - and [I]one[/I] point of view that is NOT being expressed, despite the fact that it is probably, if not the most important, at least the one we would all very much like to hear!

Thats OK Percy, thank you for replying , misunderstandings abound, still love your paintings:winki:
A

[quote=pigro;113535]How about - if you don't like Sally's posts/presence, grit your teeth and just ignore the majority of her harmless posts/threads entirely.

This would have three clear benefits:

a) Sally would quickly become aware that she was being scrutinised in this way, and could "self moderate" if she was able.

Tried that Pigro and got nowhere – Oh actually, I’m wrong, I eventually ended up on moderation.

Recently I red triamgled and asked for a thread to be removed because it served no other purpose than to inflame the situation. I received no acknowledgement of my report but the thread was eventually deleted at Ms Donaldson’s request –[B] not mine.[/B]
I have also red triangled the Dear Aunty Persephone thread as it is not functioning properly (this thread seems to be misbehaving in the same way too) but no response from mods or admin.

I used to report things but gave up eventually as no one took any notice of me. It actually made me feel even more that this is not a level playing field and the rules do not necessarily apply equally to all.

So, nice suggestion and it should work but for me it did not.:no:

" there has been one glaring ABSENTEE throughout - and [I]one[/I] point of view that is NOT being expressed, despite the fact that it is probably, if not the most important, at least the one we would all very much like to hear! " Carole B

But I did bung my 1euro worth in. Post no.10!

Seriously though, there is no point in using this thread to counter attack somebody who is doing what many people are asking of her.
Sitting squarely on the fence (it's a little pointy though), it would seem that the un-named is guilty as charged whether she replies or not. What chance does that give any of us if we should upset somebody else's idea of the status quo? Nielo has offered a solution. Maybe that gesture and the proposed meeting halfway will suffice?
Anybody who is worried about posting, don't be. The rules of posting are clear. If we all abide by these rules as suggested by various posters including the very clear cut action proposed by Alan H, then the forum will be much the stronger for all of us, veterans newbies and occasional dippers alike.

[quote=DavidUno;113546].
Seriously though, there is no point in using this thread to counter attack somebody who is doing what many people are asking of her.[/quote]
Agreed- the forum has been quite peaceful the last day or so- peaceful like the DMZ, but peaceful nonetheless. Whatever the various combatants are doing, here's hoping they keep it up

Well. I know I am inpatient but the silence is deafening,

Can we please get to some sort of agreement/amnesty or is it really that the animosity is the most exciting thing about the forum?

For my part, I live here, I eat, sleep, live, breath Italy every day. I love Italy that is why I am on the forum. I post about Italy and t gets a warm response in grazie’s but encourages few others to wax lyrical about the subject of this forum.

What do people really want? Information, advice, informed debate, Google links or a good old clash of personalities?

Someone please advise me how long I should leave Ms Donaldson off my ignore list before I give up and we continue as before!

[quote=Nielo;113603]
What do people really want? Information, advice, informed debate, Google links or a good old clash of personalities?
[/quote]

I'd like a kilo each of the first three - a sprinkle of the fourth (only the good stuff, mind) - and I'll pass on the last. Could I have witty banter instead?

[quote=Nielo;113603]I post about Italy and t gets a warm response in grazie’s but encourages few others to wax lyrical about the subject of this forum.[/quote]
See this wonderful thread: [URL="http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/introduce-yourself-piacere-conoscerti/11891-hello-im-not-new-here.html"]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/introduce-yourself-piacere-conoscerti/11891-hello-im-not-new-here.html[/URL]
What a joy to read!

Yes Noma I agree and if you look carefully you will see that I contributed to that thread.

But what I am saying is that if a thread of the navel gazing variety (as Carole B calls it) comes up it gets far more views and a better response.

“Compassion” 32 responses 774 views and in the circolo so only viewed by members.

“Hello I’m not new here” 10 responses and 362 views.

QED

I find them both interesting, though the other is much richer. It doesn't have to be either/or though, see annec's post-
[quote]
[quote]Originally Posted by Nielo
What do people really want? Information, advice, informed debate, Google links or a good old clash of personalities?[/quote]
I'd like a kilo each of the first three - a sprinkle of the fourth (only the good stuff, mind) - and I'll pass on the last. Could I have witty banter instead?[/QUOTE]

11892 Compassion

'tis done

As you sow, so you shall reap.

But I did bung my 1euro worth in! post no.10