10027 An awful picture of Italy

Jesus. That's so awful.

Personally, I don't think the photographer is any better.

Assuming that it was a press photographer Anne, then they graphically report the news, allowing others to see it, I see no blame for them,I have been tying to remember the photograph of the burning child in Vietnam, whose publication changed the tide of public opinion regarding the war, I dont believe we can censor such things because they are unpleasant, but perhaps that wasnt your point?
A

[quote=Angie and Robert;93425]Assuming that it was a press photographer Anne, then they graphically report the news, allowing others to see it, I see no blame for them,I have been tying to remember the photograph of the burning child in Vietnam, whose publication changed the tide of public opinion regarding the war, I dont believe we can censor such things because they are unpleasant, but perhaps that wasnt your point?
A[/quote]

Very true, a press photographer has a duty to show the good and the bad - however, I suspect that there would have been more mobile phones with cameras on that beach than professional photographers with a job to do.

[quote=Angie and Robert;93425].................,I have been trying to remember the photograph of the burning child in Vietnam, whose publication changed the tide of public opinion regarding the war, I..............[/quote]

I think the one you were looking for was

Indeed this is awful.
Surely to goodness the police should have closed off that part of the beach and erected some sort of temporary covering.
These children died in a tragic way and deserve some sort of respect, no matter who they were.:sad:

Francesca

Okay it's sad two kids died. And? :veryconfused: My cousin drowned years ago. I can assure you the beach wasn't closed. People didn't go home. You shake your head. If you're a parent you pull your kids out of the water.

This was a public beach likely full of people. I bet many barely knew anything had happened. It happened at 2pm? Lunch time right. I wonder how many had wandered off to eat and came back hours later.

The photographer wasn't there when it happened. He would have had to drive to the beach.

The two bodies should have been taken away and not left on the beach. Had it been non Roma children would the same thing have happened??? I doubt it.

The only way I can cope with the implications of that photograph is to believe that the seated couple, sunbathing, were super-imposed. If the photo is genuine, then I cannot believe that they were Italians.

I think the real issue is that the Italian Authorities were responsible for leaving the Roma girls'' bodies there. I raised this on another Forum, and one of the replies there doubts whether this photo and story is authentic as there is no evidence of wet sand surrounding the bodies.

I Have checked the ANSA website and cannot find the story. Has anyone in Italy heard or read anything in Italy???

[url=http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/regioni/campania/campania.html]ANSA.it[/url]

Check the article again. There are loads of comments posted at the end of it. [url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-picture-that-shames-italy-873743.html]The picture that shames Italy - Europe, World - The Independent[/url]

PS I typed in Giornale Napoli into Google and still haven't found anything.

[url=http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2008/luglio/20/Bimbe_annegate_corpi_tra_bagnanti_co_9_080720160.shtml]Bimbe annegate, i corpi tra i bagnanti[/url]

[quote=Sally Donaldson;93445] I raised this on another Forum, and one of the replies there doubts whether this photo and story is authentic as there is no evidence of wet sand surrounding the bodies. [/quote]

Possibly because the period they'd been there meant the sand had dried.

[url=http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/07/200872118514633141.html]Al Jazeera English - Europe - Italians 'sunbathe by Roma bodies'[/url]

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/21/italy.drowning/index.html]Italian outrage over Roma drowning photos - CNN.com[/url]

CNN Report with additional photos - [url=http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/21/italy.drowning/index.html#cnnSTCVideo]Italian outrage over Roma drowning photos - CNN.com[/url]

[url=http://www.everyonegroup.com/EveryOne/MainPage/Entries/2008/7/20_Two_children_of_the_Roma_ethnic_group_drown_in_Naples.html]Two children of the Roma ethnic group drown in Naples[/url]

[quote=sueflauto;93450]Possibly because the period they'd been there meant the sand had dried.[/quote]

Sue yes that is what I reckoned to and said so in my reply to her.

[quote=Sally Donaldson;93445]I think the real issue is that the Italian Authorities were responsible for leaving the Roma girls'' bodies there. I raised this on another Forum, and one of the replies there doubts whether this photo and story is authentic as there is no evidence of wet sand surrounding the bodies.

I Have checked the ANSA website and cannot find the story. Has anyone in Italy heard or read anything in Italy???[/quote]

[url=http://notizie.tiscali.it/feed/news/2008/07/19/ansa/ansab2008-07-19_119248836.html]Napoli: due ragazze morte in mare | tiscali.notizie[/url]

The girls did drown - whether the rest is true I can't say as I have not seen the television news nor read a newspaper recently. Certainly the UK press has picked up on it and it has been widely reported, but how accurately?

Something like this, if true, is absolutely outrageous and the Italian authorities should have not left the bodies of the unfortunate girls like this. The tourists, sunbaking, also shows horrendous insensitivity. Are we becoming too inhumane?

I had e-mailed the article to my Italian friend before I found backup articles. His quick response prior to going off to work this morning was "Nothing like that happened in the last few days at least. We might be bad but not that bad ...:-)" Probably he was either on the beach on Saturday and out in the evening so missed the news???

An aside, does Italy have "Sunday" papers like The Sunday Times etc???

In my experience, whenever there is an ‘incident’ in Italy, the Italians rush to help and there is usually a huge crowd. A child got her foot caught in one of those children’s’ rides in the foyer of the supermarket and half the shoppers were there, all giving advice and getting in the way of the emergency services, so I find it very strange that the picture ostensibly shows no one near the bodies of the two children, I can not believe that they were left alone on the beach.

I'm afraid this smacks of media hype,

I also note from the article that people (Italians) rushed to pull the girls out of the water and that rather goes against the depraved indifference angle, which has been the spin on this story.

I can understand how people on a beach could sit near the bodies if they were not aware of the incident, and thought the bodies were just sunbathers 'covering up' [like I did as akid - before sunscreen was invented]

What I cannot understand/condone in any way is a System that allowed the bodies to stay on a public beach in full view of anybody there - what type of state organisation, [police, ambulance and mortuary] can allow this to happen?

.

I understand the concern about the bodies having been left on the beach, but I think there is some sort of procedure (whether for legal reasons or for semi-religious reasons) with a fatality which means this has to happen.

I'm basing this on my observation of fatal road accidents and industrial accidents: in Italy and Switzerland the attending ambulance drives off once it has been established that a death has occurred, and the corpse is collected from the scene by a funeral director or an authority in a 'coroner' type vehicle, equipped with proper coffins. I don't know why this happens, but it does, and it obviously means a delay with the body being left in place.

The reports though say hours in this case Charles. This beach is on the outskirts of Naples ..... and to be left in the intense sun .....

Cardinal Crescenzio Sepe, Archbishop of Naples has spoken on the tragedy - [url=http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/article873742.ece?startindex=-1]Cardinal Crescenzio Sepe: Prejudice in life, indifference in death - Commentators, Opinion - The Independent[/url]

Sally, for Gods sake, please stop it! Post after post of links to sensationalist quotes are excuses given by some to use this tragedy to rile up feelings and does nothing to present a clear picture here.

I've stayed out of this thread until now as I was waiting for some news - which I have now received. The question I asked was "Ma manco dei morti hai rispetto?"

The story is true - two young girls did drown on the beach, but the news articles are sensationlist, inaccurate and very damaging. I have read many articles where even a simple thing like the ages of the girls are all completely different and some have reported the girls as being sisters and others, as being cousins.

"A local cleric says the girls were aged 12 and 13. The Telegraph says they were 11 and 12. The Guardian puts their ages at 14 and 16 etc., etc." and in the greater scheme of things being discussed here, I don't suppose their ages are so important except to show that journalists - who were not even present - cannot even report accurately the ages of these two poor girls.

Many of the articles I've read were written by journalists living and/or based in Rome, who sent out reports worldwide from there - none were anywhere near Torregaveta beach at the time.

The girls bodies were recovered from the sea very quickly by people who were on the beach. Many people, including children were very upset and left, but many others, who were also in shock, remained. "Un’anima buona ha messo due teli da mare, due asciugamani, una verde e un’altra bianca e azzurra" to cover their bodies "per la dignita di due ragazzine".

Does that sound as if people didn't care?

The carabinieri e guardia costiera attended soon after the incident and erected a simple barrier while waiting for the senior authorities to arrive (which was over an hour) "perche' ci sono le incombenze burocratiche e di legge da superare". Of course, as there was no other choice, "passare dei minuti i poveri corpi rimangono sulla sabbia" - remember also that the ambulance had to get from the city to the beach and it was already known that the poor girls were dead - this was a mortuary crew and mortuary ambulance - not a medical/emergency one - which is just exactly as Charles stated it would happen.

There was no other choice - what were people supposed to do? Where would you have placed the bodies to if you ever found yourself in this horrific situation?

The bodies of the girls were then respectfully placed inside proper coffins - not plastic body bags - and carried on the shoulders of the police who concluded their preliminary investigations as quickly as possible.

Alan is also right, there were people on the beach who were not aware of what had happened and perhaps thought that people were only sleeping under the towels. There were many others who knew, who had helped in recovering the young bodies and chose to remain near to these two poor girls after death.

Which one of us here would not take some very small comfort in knowing later that our child was not left all alone on a beach after death? The girls parents were not at the beach.

Do you really believe that Neapolitans would react so disgracefully towards ANY child or do you believe - as is being hyped - that they acted in this way simply because these two youngsters were Rom? Do you think they looked up and saw two young girls in trouble in the water and thought to themselves "Oh I cant be bothered with that - they are only Rom kids" - for that is what this reportage hype is turning into, even in Naples!

Look again at that photo - do they really look like they don't give a damn or does their general stance, although blurred, allow you to see that they are aware of the situation and actually don't seem to be having such a great time?

This is a tragedy that is now being used to stir up further feelings about the current anti immigration problems within Italy.

Si vede che la situazione e' nera, but please don't make it worse by pandering to the hype!

I dont know, but they looked very lonely in death, would it not have been possible for some official, not present in the photo to have erected screens and to have stood "guard" over the bodies?.
This has turned into a debate on what the press perceives as sensational and a demonstration of anti gypsy hysteria.
I do remember other photos of bodies on beaches in Italy where bathers carried on with their sunbathing, and perhaps Alan can provide them for me.
This is not my experience here, but whilst I am protected by my community, perhaps these girls where not?
A

Sally posted a link to this from Cardinal Crescenzio Sepe. I can't imagine anyone reading it and thinking it was a sensationalist quote:
[quote]The two young Gypsy cousins, Violetta and Cristina, were offering small, cheap trinkets for sale.

With the sea just a stone's throw away, they did what all children would have done: run into the water to cool off. Instead, they ran to their deaths. The photos in the newspapers were taken when it was too late: you could just make out the feet of the two girls poking out from under a beach towel, with which someone had pitifully covered the lifeless corpses. These sad and horrible photos show us something else, however: sunbathers who continued to lie on the beach, perhaps even irritated by the sight cluttering up the sand.

It is these images which we never wanted to see of our city. We are saddened not only by the two bodies under the beach towels, but by the people who make up the backdrop, people who didn't act and didn't feel remotely concerned.

Turning the other way or minding one's own business can, at times, be more devastating than the event itself.

Indifference is not an emotion for human beings – and it should be even less so when faced with Violetta and Cristina, already scarred by a life of hardship and weakened by the prejudices that must have been difficult to bear at their age.

It is time for Naples to face up to facts. In a community so generous and rich in humanity, we don't want indifference to land us with a new – and more serious – emergency [than the rubbish crisis which submerged Naples]... The city is undoubtedly cleaner and more presentable. But the Church has the duty to look into the soul of its children.

And if it sees indifference growing, everything can become irreparably dirty. Violetta and Cristina are asking us, as they have every right, to look into the soul ... of Naples.[/quote]

Oh come on! Not a sensationalist quote? Are you serious Noma?

Look at the wording!

[quote]They ran to their deaths - sunbathers who continued to lie on the beach - perhaps even irritated by the sight cluttering up the sand - people who didn't act and didn't feel remotely concerned - scarred by a life of hardship and weakened by the prejudices. Violetta and Cristina are asking us, as they have every right, to look into the soul ... of Naples."[/quote]

While some may think the actual quote you highlight may not be sensationalist in itself, the reason for its existance certainly is. Lets look again at the photo in the first post. In focus are the feet of the girls - the couple in the background are out of focus, so here is another photo showing the reverse, the couple are in focus this time.

[ATTACH]2061[/ATTACH]

What do you notice about these photos (which are the only two I know of)? The couple in the background do seem to be aware of the situation, but are they not just sitting quietly? What else do you notice? How about the hordes of people who didn't act and didn't feel remotely concerned. What about all the people who were irritated by the sight cluttering up the sand? Where are all the sunbathers who continued to lie on the beach?

I cant see them. Can you? No, and nor did any of the reporters, nor the Cardinal, as none of them were there, nor any of the many others who, perhaps unintentionally, twist the facts and keep the rumours running until it builds up into a frenzy.

If we have accepted some people were unaware of what had happened, then they had no reason to behave any differently than they would usually behave on a beach had this tragic accident not happened. That does not mean they were heartless - it means they were unaware of the situation!

We can not condemn people for sunbathing or swimming, for eating a sandwich or drinking, for laughing and joking with friends if they did not know that under the towels just 100 metres away, lay two young girls who had tragically drowned.

I think I'm safe in saying that had they known they would have been shocked and possibly gone over to see if it was true. It's a fact of life that people are nosey and would want to see what had happened.

What I dislike so intensely about this story is the way it has been manipulated into being the reason that these two girls were left on the beach is soley because they were Rom.

It's disgraceful to suggest that these young girls were treated with less respect after death only because they were Rom! The sensationlist comments and reports stem from this rumour being promulgated throughout the press.. who were not even there to report on FACT - and what little fact they could report on, they got wrong!

The Cardinal can only be responding to the reports he has read in the newspapers or heard on the radio - as he was not there either. His comments were then reported and in turn, also responded to and so the whole thing continues, escalating until it becomes something it was not and the real tragedy is brushed aside.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but half of me wantd to leave your post aside Angie, due to feeling I should leave this topic alone now. So I'll just point out that a "simple barrier was erected" and ask you to consider that this was a beach - where there are no facilities to ensure that screens or shrouds are used and guards placed, It is my understanding that the best that could be done for the girls was done at the time.

You said you are protected by your community, but perhaps these girls were not. Does that not make you wonder which community's protection these young girls were supposed to be under? As Rom children, should they only have been under the protection of the Rom community - none of who were there - or - as children of the world, should they not have been under everyones protection?

It was a tragic accident - so I'll say a prayer for both of them and their parents and allow them to rest in peace.

As ever, a very eloquent and accurate assesment, juliancoll. I agree completely.
But, may I stir the waters a bit, by alerting you all to 'the alternative scenario', which postulates the young Romanian girls didn't drown because they couldn't swim, but that they were deliberately murdered because they were Roms.

I am not making this up. These theories are being published in the mainstream press.

[quote]Oh come on! Not a sensationalist quote? Are you serious Noma?[/quote]
Completely. I found the Cardinals words very moving. I find your reaction to them peculiarly defensive- as though the people who picnic'ed and sunbathed around the children's corpses are the victims here, not the children.

I agree that we should pray for the children, but I join the Cardinal in praying for Napoli as well- praying that she can overcome the indifference of turning one's back, not only to a dead child, but to all her problems, organized crime, mountains of filth.

Pax vobiscum! We are all getting a bit upset about this awful event. There is truth in everything that has been said, the sensationalism, the indifference, the inability of handling things with a bit more dignity and respect for human beings. I also refuse to believe that ordinary people could have not been moved by this tragedy. Italians have big hearts and this would have touched everybody. I am also on the side of the Cardinal and I think that prayer will help us a long way and not only in this case. May those girls find in Heaven the love, warmth and care they did not find on Earth.
Pax vobiscum, again!

Noma, I didn't say his words were not moving, nor do I believe my reaction to them was peculiarly defensive and I certainly never suggested that people sunbathing on the beach were the victims. (Although that may still happen as the couple pictured on the beach are sure to be recognised.)

In fact, I said that the reaction to this story escalates until it becomes something it was not and the real tragedy is brushed aside.

We are not discussing here the problems with mountains of filth or organised crime in Naples.

We are discussing here (or at least I am) whether the people on the beach were indifferent to the death of these two young girls. We are discussing how, through the media, stories like this can spiral out of control on the assumption that people on the beach didn't care, turned their backs and just left the girls bodies on the sand because they were Rom.

If the reports stated by Charles Phillips in his post above are true - postulating the young girls didn't drown because they couldn't swim, but that they were deliberately murdered because they were Rom, then my point is not only valid, but proven.

Gala, your words will be comforting to many, so thank you, but perhaps we should also not assume that the girls did not have all the love, warmth and care they wanted when they were alive. We don't know who their parents are, how they raised the girls or indeed, if there was any lack of love, warmth or care from their parents, relatives and their (and the larger) community in general.

[quote]We are not discussing here the problems with mountains of filth or organised crime in Naples. [/quote]
I was referring to the Cadinal's statement. I suggest re-reading it, slowly. Very thoughtful article.

I spent the day at the beach in Ostia many years ago and a young man drowned. We (English) were horrified but the Italians with us shrugged and said that this was a fairly common event (I have no idea whether this is true or not). I do seem to remember that the body was removed fairly promptly. As for nationality/ethnicity, unless you are wearing your national flag on your cossie, how could anyone possibly know? Also, perhaps someone who knows more about photography and depth of field than I do could comment on how far away the couple in the background actually were.

Juliancoll, I am quite certain that the girls may have had families who loved them, but they lived in what we could describe as "hostile environment" where they could have felt rejected. It is all very sad and should not happen.
Marie, unfortunately, Romani people are easy to recognize even in a crowd. Possibly their ethnicity has prompted all this media attention.
All very sad, perhaps we need more prayers, as suggested, not only for the girls and their families but also for ourselves and the world we live in.

[quote=Gala Placidia;93560]Marie, unfortunately, Romani people are easy to recognize even in a crowd. Possibly their ethnicity has prompted all this media attention.
[/quote]

I very much doubt I would be able to decide whether it was an Italian or a Rom in a swimsuit! I could probably pick out a Dutch family though....but I wouldn't consider this "unfortunate".

[quote=marie armstrong;93558] Also, perhaps someone who knows more about photography and depth of field than I do could comment on how far away the couple in the background actually were.[/quote]

A very good question Marie. The answer is: A very long way away. I would say at least 50 metres. They are probably thinking why is that guy aiming an enormous telephoto in our direction? (we do not even know that they are Italian)

He's without question using a long lens, hence the extreme foreshortening and shallow depth of field. In order to get the softening in the backgound, particularly in dazzling daylight, he will also be a lot further from the girls bodies than appears the case.

This distance help on two fronts:

1. It helps him/her switch the focus or degree of sharpness between the girls and the people in the background very easily, thus giving him two separate photos to syndicate. (ie much more money!)

2. It also allows him to draw another figure into the foreground on other photos, who again will be a surprising distance from the bodies, again for more exclusivity and of course ramping up the story of indifference.

The photographer knows exactly what he was doing. Its very manipulative. There are actually no people picnicking around these girls otherwise the shot would be a simple wide shot. Which is why I'm afraid the people in the backgound are the innocent fall guys, it could have been anybody caucasion/"white", any nationality, one of us, it didnt matter as long he had somebody to give it context so that his agency could sell to a news desks.

So they are very much victims, one moment enjoying a quiet day out on the beach and the next their image being wired and syndicated worldwide as representing heartless Italians.

It's surprising how gullible some people are.

One question for Noma:

I'm confused, could you explain to me how Cardinal Sepe knows "PEOPLE DIDNT FEEL REMOTELY CONCERNED" ?

[quote=Noma;93539]...
I agree that we should pray for the children, but I join the Cardinal in praying for Napoli as well- praying that she can overcome the indifference of turning one's back, not only to a dead child, but to all her problems, [B]organized crime, mountains of filth[/B].[/quote]

[quote=Noma;93556]I was referring to the Cadinal's statement. I suggest re-reading it, slowly. Very thoughtful article.[/quote]

You misunderstand Noma, I was referring to the parts of your statement (quoted and bolded above) where you bring the problems of organised crime and mountains of filth into the discussion.

[quote=Noma;93539]
the people who picnic'ed and sunbathed around the children's corpses are the victims here, not the children.

I.[/quote]

The only evidence we have to go on is the picture and I cannot see people picnicking or sunbathing around the children’s bodies.

I see two people sitting over by the rocks, they don't look very Italian to me, nor do they look as if they are enjoying themselves sunbathing. Their body language strikes me as sad and uncomfortable, they sit there clutching their knees, not basking in the sun. Also the photograph shows just an instant in time. Who knows they may have sat there for only a few seconds before leaving.

Also it may be true that Roma are easily recognised but I defy anyone to recognise the nationality of someone when only their feet are visible.

I hope the children are in heaven (if there is one) I am [B]sure[/B] their parents are in hell. They have lost their children and to have their tragic deaths used to stir up such a furore and to make it a racist issue will not help them in their grief.

[quote=juliancoll;93564]You misunderstand Noma, I was referring to the parts of your statement (quoted and bolded above) where you bring the problems of organised crime and mountains of filth into the discussion.[/quote]
Again, I was referring to the Cadinal's statement in the article. I again suggest re-reading the Cardinal's article, slowly.

[quote]The only evidence we have to go on is the picture and I cannot see people picnicking or sunbathing around the children’s bodies.[/quote]
You have 5 or 6 links in the above posts to articles, several with eyewitness accounts.

Noma, you're waffling dear. Let's see if a picture paints a thousand words.

We are looking for people picnicking or sunbathing around the childrens bodies - we are looking for a lack of concern by those on the beach at the time - for hordes of people who didn't act and didn't feel remotely concerned - we are looking for the people who were irritated by the sight cluttering up the sand. We are also trying to establish how far away the couple are from the girls.

What do we see?

[ATTACH]2062[/ATTACH]

More to come.

More photos.

These must be the hordes of people sunbathing - everyone sunbathes standing up in Naples.
[ATTACH]2064[/ATTACH]

There was no one to look after them and keep a respectable vigil
[ATTACH]2065[/ATTACH]

Perhaps picnics, indifference and lack of concern was confined to the left side of the beach only.
[ATTACH]2066[/ATTACH]

More to follow

Here is a videoclip, which makes it pretty clear that the other users of the beach were acting respectfully. Somebody had even managed to place some flowers near to the girls.
[url=http://www.videocomunicazioni.com/2008/07/19/torregaveta-muoiono-annegate-due-sorelline-slave/]TORREGAVETA: MUOIONO ANNEGATE DUE SORELLINE SLAVE[/url]

None of the emergency services could be bothered to attend

[attach]2068[/attach]

[attach]2069[/attach]

[attach]2070[/attach]

No one showed any respect

[attach]2071[/attach]

[attach]2073[/attach]

[attach]2074[/attach]

[attach]2075[/attach]

[quote=Charles Phillips;93596]Here is a videoclip, which makes it pretty clear that the other users of the beach were acting respectfully. Somebody had even managed to place some flowers near to the girls.
[url=http://www.videocomunicazioni.com/2008/07/19/torregaveta-muoiono-annegate-due-sorelline-slave/]TORREGAVETA: MUOIONO ANNEGATE DUE SORELLINE SLAVE[/url][/quote]

Thank you very much for posting this videolink Charles. Apologies for crossing posts.

I knew - I just knew it was impossible for Neapolitans to behave in the way they have been accused of and I only hope the parents of the girls and the Rom community also know this.

Racial tension has not reached the point of indifference and disrespecting death in Naples - and never will.

I think that it makes us feel much better to realise that this was a classic case of manipulation by some media. This reconciles me with humanity, however, the press should be more careful about their releases. Don't worry, Sally, we were all so upset by what we saw and the claims published, that even the Catholic Church had to say something officially. As for the media, they acted like vultures.

[URL="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-picture-that-shames-italy-873743.html"][B][COLOR=#004807]The picture that shames Italy - Europe, World - The Independent[/COLOR][/B][/URL]

.

Perhaps now everyone has made their point, it is an emotive subject, and the research done by members re what appears to be the true story has been revealed. Is it now the time to put the subject to rest,? but to remember again how manipulative to press can be.
A .