11927 Social security in Italy

We were talking to an Italian friend yesterday, about this and he said that his 2 sons had been required to work shorter hours at their factories, due to lack of orders.He had been helping them out financially, which put a strain on the whole family, I guess this is echoed nation wide.
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Yes its a difficult time for many, the bigger company's do have a payment system between them and government whereby workers are paid about 70% of their income for six months or more, I heard that the government have increased it so that a lot of the smaller places of work that slipped through the loop before, will now also qualify, and they have speeded up the waiting period so that people will receive these payment s sooner than before.

That dosent do anything for the " precario"of which I am one, or anything for people that work in a shop or at the local bar should they become unemployed.This government have introduced the social card which gives family's and people on low income about 40 euro a month. The comune also give hand outs but (so I belive) you are made to wait a while before getting anything,
It will never be anything like in the UK, but sometimes I think there, it has been to much, often abused . Here not enough and there to much.

Italy's problem is to many people working in "nero" but employers think 3 or 4 times before they employ somebody by putting them on the books.
One girl I knew who has a degree in language's went to work in an office (family run buisness) for a prova of 6 month's without pay, only to be told at the end that "no she wasen't suitable," for the simple fact that they would of had to start paying her , so they start to do it all over again with somebody else. But dont be shocked it's Italy the downside to it , and happens .

I think that we should add to the list of people going through very hard times the large number of self-employed, those who have small businesses often doing all the work by themselves or with the help of a - generally unpaid - family member. This is a major problem all over the world as these people do not qualify for social security benefits even if they have to make contributions to it. If larger firms are in trouble, they usually cause not only losses amongst their employees but also small businesses providing services. It is a snowball that quickly becomes an avalanche.

[quote=Nielo;113707]What are the arrangements here in Italy for unemployment benefit and other benefits? I have heard that there really are no such provisions like in the UK and with the recession starting to bite I wondered how the Italians manage.

Two small factories in a village near us closed in the New Year and I can’t imagine there are many jobs for those who were laid off. In fact someone I know here has not had a ‘proper job’ for over a year. He does have the best orto for miles but there are still bills to be paid and I can’t imagine how the family is managing.[/quote]

There are [B]no[/B] social security benefits 'as such'. Basically, unless you are laid off from a fixed contract job, [U][I]if you don't work you'll get nothing[/I][/U]. Yes, as Chardonnay states, they have just introduced a hand-out (benefit) for the 'precari' (living a precarious means of existence) of a few euro a month. for those on pensions or incomes which are far below what those greedy Brits would consider to be a poverty level.

Of course if you [U]are[/U] laid off- perhaps from a job you've had for years - then the Government will put you into the 'Cassa Integrazione'. A system which will pay you about 80% of your last salary for a limited period of time if you can't find other work. I think it is about 18/24 months (not sure). Once that that time is finished though, you get zilch!

Many young people who don't have any work, or only part time 'agency', or work 'in black' are forced to stay with thier parents who have to support them too.

Wouldn't hurt a few of the lazy scroungers in the UK to have to face such austerity. They might have to give up all their binge boozing and '[I][U]a free house for a kid[/U][/I]' mentality!

Wasn't it Harold Macmillan who said "You've never had it so good!" ? Well he got that right when you compare the UK benefits with those in Italy!

AND some of them who are on the dole in the UK can now come and live here - to search for work (yeah, right) and get their benefits paid here.... nice work if you can get it eh?:madd:

[quote=Chardonnay;113710]...................employers think 3 or 4 times before they employ somebody by putting them on the books.
One girl I knew who has a degree in language's went to work in an office (family run buisness) for a prova of 6 month's without pay, only to be told at the end that "no she wasen't suitable," for the simple fact that they would of had to start paying her , so they start to do it all over again with somebody else..................[/quote]

According to my Italian friends - this is not an uncommon practice - and in fact some companies ask the applicant to pay for the pleasure of working for them for the 6 months.

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[quote=alan h;113716]According to my Italian friends - this is not an uncommon practice - and in fact some companies ask the applicant to pay for the pleasure of working for them for the 6 months.
.[/quote]

It is also an accepted practice in law firms with junior lawyers. All those years to become qualified then you must practice often for several years for no salary at all... Yet get a job in a bank (which is virtually impossible due to nepotism) and you will get the so-called '[U][I]seidicesima[/I][/U]' - that is [B]SIXTEEN[/B] months salary every year!!!

That really is amazing what carol mentioned above that they are allowed to come here to supposedly look for work and collect uk dole money, what other country would allow it ?
With some of the handouts that people get in the UK most Italians would think they'd died and gone to heaven, it would just be to hard for most of them to imagine, having 4 children by diffrent fathers and expecting the tax payer to provide.

I wonder how many of you know what would happen here:

If the people involved couldnt afford to keep a child there family would be asked if they intended to provide, if they where unable to do so, and no other family memeber could , nonni ect, then they would most probably be adopted.

What are your thoughts on this?

At the start of the school year all parents usually receive a notice from the comune re a scheme to help less well off families cope with the cost of books etc. A small sum is available to those in need - I can't remember the exact MAXIMUM HOUSEHOLD INCOME at which you are eligible to apply but I think it is usually approx €10,000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anything above that and you are expected to cope. Yes the UK has it easy, far too easy when compared to here.

It's an EU regulation:

[B][URL="http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/working/social-security/unemployment/index_en.html"]European Commission - Your Europe - Citizens - Unemployment benefits[/URL][/B]

Brits, and other 'communitari' whose countries have similar benefits, coming here can claim via their 'home' contributions. So I shouldn't think Italians going to the UK could claim the Italian equivalent because there isn't one... but hey - who cares - theBritish Government will give them all they need anyway. Better that than increase the pensions for the elderly. Right?

Let's oppress 'The Wrinklies' - right? There aren't enough of us to cause much trouble. Makes me sick!

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I don't think that it would be possible to claim unemployment benefits in any EU country if you have not worked before in that country. I know of a Spanish young woman who lost her job after 11 years with the same company and who is currently receiving unemployment benefits in Spain. She wanted to go to Italy to do a special design course which would improve her chances of getting a job. The Spanish Social Security is allowing her to do the course in Italy for a couple of months, but she will not receive any payments from them during her absence and she will not get anything from the Italians either, just a bill for the cost of the course she needs to do. Fortunately, she has some savings and her mother is also helping her out.

I know nothing about the Italian Welfare State, but I have anecdotal evidence of life in rural Italy.

My Nonna (adopted) 73 year old, had a [I]very[/I] bad accident last year. She was carrying a very large pan of boiling potatoes up into her kitchen from the cantina below. She was doing this becuase even though it was June, rather than use the gas cooker in the kitchen she still uses the wood burning stove in the cantina (wood being free, gas costing the earth).

She tripped on the step and burnt herself very badly.

For weeks she had to purchase a very expensive special dressing for her burnt arm. On one of my rare UK visits I told her I would purchase a lorry load for her, becuase they were bound to be cheaper in the UK.

I found out that they cost £12 per dressing, pretty much the same as here in Italy. My Nonna did not get her lorry load and I came back empty handed. She needed two of these every day for about 6 weeks.

I asked her what would happen if she could not afford to buy these, would the Italian Health Service provide them?

Nonna looked at me as if I was mad (not for the first time) and said 'well, that's what the family is there for, they will buy them'!

My Nonna is one of the lucky ones, she lives with her extended family (including us) and will be always be looked after.

[quote=Carole B;113720]Let's oppress 'The Wrinklies' - right?[/quote]

Actually Carole, I think you're wrong. It's our generation who have been the lucky ones. Perhaps bought a house when they only cost about 3 times your annual salary; if you went to university you got a grant and didn't leave with massive debt; work was available and at the end there was a state pension, if small, assuming you didn't have other savings or even a final salary pension scheme... remember them?

Contrast that with youngsters today. Who will be paying for their future pensions as they currently pay for existing pensioners. Increased life expectancy and fewer workers to pay for each pensioner means that something's got to give. When the pension was first introduced the average pensioner only lived for a few paltry years before no longer being a burden.... I got my (small!) company pension at 50, for goodness sake and I am under no illusions as to how lucky I am. Fortunately I can also work, don't have expensive tastes (except in wine, alas), don't own an Ipod or a TV, eat out much etc.

No, I think we've been quite lucky really.

Just to counteract the Daily Mail-like splutterings of disgust regarding "benefits scroungers" and women-with-four-children-all-by-different-fathers, I'm posting an alternative link about the 130,000 homeless children in the UK:
[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/mar/08/homeless-children-britain]Louise Carpenter on the plight of some of Britain's 130,000 homeless children | Society | The Observer[/url]

I'm not sure that those on the Jobseekers Allowance (currently around £60 per week per single adult if I'm not mistaken) consider themselves fortunate compared to the unemployed in Italy.

As is often the case, there are 2 sides to every coin.

My eldest son and his girlfriend have a baby girl of just 7 months and live with her parents. He lost his job 2 months back and tried to sign on at the job centre, only to be told that he'd have to wait 5 weeks for an appointment! 5 weeks later he gets to see the benefits officer, gets offered £40 a week job seekers and a further £2 a week for the baby. To rub salt in the wound, they said it was not possible to back date the benefit! So they rely on me and her parents to help them out, until he is in work again.

On the other hand, an Italian friend of mine came over to the UK about 6 years ago. She was living in private shared accommodation and working in a coffee bar. She met an african guy, got pregnant and evicted from her shared house, as no children were allowed. Lambeth Council found her a 2 bedroom flat, she recieved income support, child benefit, housing benefit, tax credits and vouchers for a pram, cot, clothes, nappies and food. And she'd never paid a penny in tax in the UK! If she had returned to Italy, her family would have had to support her, as this is the way it is in Italy. She now has 3 kids! :reallyembarrassed:

I have to agree that the system in the UK is out of control and if you know how the system works, you can milk it for tens of £,000's

However, if you are are like my son and his girlfriend and don't know the system, you'll get sweet fanny adams.

The UK and Italian systems are at extremes. I just wish that there could be a middle ground in both countries, where those that really need help, got it.

[quote=sueflauto;113732]Actually Carole, I think you're wrong. It's our generation who have been the lucky ones. Perhaps bought a house when they only cost about 3 times your annual salary; if you went to university you got a grant and didn't leave with massive debt; work was available and at the end there was a state pension, if small, assuming you didn't have other savings or even a final salary pension scheme... remember them?

Contrast that with youngsters today. Who will be paying for their future pensions as they currently pay for existing pensioners. Increased life expectancy and fewer workers to pay for each pensioner means that something's got to give. When the pension was first introduced the average pensioner only lived for a few paltry years before no longer being a burden.... I got my (small!) company pension at 50, for goodness sake and I am under no illusions as to how lucky I am. Fortunately I can also work, don't have expensive tastes (except in wine, alas), don't own an Ipod or a TV, eat out much etc.

No, I think we've been quite lucky really.[/quote]

Some have been, some haven't Charles. My mother contributed fo many years... from when the system was born I suppose. She never went 'down' to the 'married womans stamp' (the older ones among us will know what I'm talking about as I don't know if such a reduced payment choice still exists - but if it does - DON'T do it... it was/is a con!). So - back to my mother . yes she paid the full satmp and died [U][I]five days[/I][/U] before her 60th birthday!

I never paid the reduced stamp either and for my company pension they took a chunk of my salary every month untill I was 60. So what I've got now - although reduced in value temporarily - I worked darned hard for. I was never out of work except for the first five years of my son's life when my husband and I made a conscious decision that it was more important for me to be with him until he reached school age (there were no Nonni for us in Milano), than to be out to work.

Of course had I gone to work then life would, without a doubt, have been easier and a bit more 'luxurious'. But we managed - it [I]was[/I] hard, and while the boy NEVER went without, a tin of sardines or plain pasta al pomodoro was the regular daily fare. My husbands salary did iclude a monthly Assegno Familiare which, if I remember correctly, was something like 5,000 lire. In those days - with an excellent job - he earned about 90,000lire pm. There were no other social benefits then either. It was simple - if you didn't earn enough - you went without. A lesson that many could profit by these days.

I've always tried not to let greed and jealousy overcome common sense. So far I think I've succeeded! Pity a lot of others haven't!

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Well, I didn't post on this thread, but I did grazie sueflauto because she was musing on your comment that 'us wrinklies' had been shafted. I tend to sue's point of view, that actually we (as in the silent majority of our age range) had (maybe still have) it quite good.
I'm not willing to get into a 'benefit thieves' discussion, because quite honestly that is an irrelevance in the greater scheme of pension payments or government debt or anything else - it is akin to the irrelevant discussions about Goodwin's pension. It's an alluring distraction for the Daily Mail/Times/Mirror/Guardian/Independent/Telegraph/Sun reading masses, but it doesn't cut the mustard with the FT afficionados! Fiddling while Rome burns comes to mind...life ain't fair, it never has been to tell the truth.

It makes it clear why so many Italians are choosing to have just one or even no kids... because they will be financially responsible for them FOR LIFE (there is no legal cut-off age when parents are released of their responsibilities regarding their "children") and there are no benefits to be claimed. I can't remember the number of times I have heard people here say that they'd like to start a family but just couldn't afford it. In a restaurant the other night while chatting to the waiter, he boasted of becoming a father at a very young age (molto precoce were his exact words) at the tender age of 27. Just the one, mind.

Back to an Italian perspective. We have 2 friends now in their 70s, who were boys together here in Italy and went to the same village school. They both left at 12 yrs old. Ones memory is of a good time, a hard time but everyone helped each other, the other Mario our neighbour says it was a bad time with little food and he hadnt wanted to leave school but was forced to as he had to work to bring money into the family. Just an insight into personal perspectives. They are both now retired on good pensions, and are helping their kids out as working hours are being cut and wages being reduced.
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[quote=juliancoll;113767]But what does happen to you in Italy if you are of working age and ability, but don't have/cant find employment and have no other means of support?

Lets say you're a 30 year old single "orphan" with no siblings/extended family and unemployed. What benefits are actually available and how much are they per week/month?[/quote]

You end up in a cardboard box at Milan train station?
I'm interested to know the answer to this, too. As far as I know there are no such benefits available.

Of course the lack of social security benefits makes life very precarious for Italians, but I do have to say that it also makes them much better adapted to facing their problems.

A comparison with what happens in those countries that are 'home' to most of us here is at least 'laughable' and at most 'obscene'... The end result 'there' is usually a total ignorance of the value of money, or a total lack of respect for others - and when you combine those two you have a pretty potent cocktail of an [U][I]"Am I bovvered[/I][/U]" society.

The Italians will have little chance of attaining an acceptable level of social care as long as not paying their taxes or accepting that the country can no longer provide you with a pension for so few contributions is the norm. It 'may' have been acceptable in the last century (when life expectancy was much lower than now), to get your pension after perhaps only 35 years of working contributions. But these days the contribution coffers are constantly empty because people are living longer. But Italians still expect to retire in their early 50's and are horrrified that this perk has now had the door slammed shut on it. Their, almost, 'national pastime' of tax avoidance could never stand them in good stead if they expected a good social benefits system - the choice was theirs!

And so?

So they just carry on and make the best of what they've got. They still accept that what rules Italy is the unholy alliance of Mafia and Church, with their own long line of absurd attempts at government, sitting squarely in the middle of those two 'power houses'. They'll continue to vote for [I]anyone[/I] who cuts taxes - gives freebies and is generally a Mr. Nice Guy (whose only interest is often 'self power'). They don't care if the freebies mean that thier social charter is non existent. Short term is [U][I]'good'[/I][/U] and for them that's "A-OK".

But for those of us who do not hail from this life style, the questions and concerns are quite different aren't they? For many of 'ours' the dominant factor seems to be fuelled by avarice, materialism and sloth. The [I]something for nothing[/I] horde of lazy s*ds are quite happy to just sit back and let the rest of the populace 'bank roll' them [I]ad infinitum[/I] while being forced to go without themselves!

One thing that [U]has[/U] made me think recently (pre-recession), was the continuing whinge of [I]"There isn't any work... [/I][I]it's the dole or nothing".[/I] But this was accompanied by [I]"All those blo*dy foreigners being allowed to come here and take our jobs!"[/I]

But hang on a minute... [B][U]WHAT jobs? [/U][/B]The ones that weren't there when YOU were looking? Or those that meant you might have to get up before mid-day to do? Or maybe those that you felt were beneath your ample qualifications or consideration?

Well, taking all of this into consideration, and having a pension, that I earned, which is not worth a lot now - [B]I still know where I prefer to be!!!!
[/B]

Edited to add:
[quote]"What happens if... You end up in a cardboard box at Milan train station?"[/quote]

You're not too far from the truth there... I think the only choices are begging, prostitution or washing windscreens at traffic lights!

I feel such an ignoramus for I have no idea about any of this. Yet often I've wondered how people manage, especially elderly people, my widowed neighbour, for example. Angie, you mention pensions, the ones you're referring to are private or state? How much is the state pension? I know when my neighbour's husband died last autumn I asked an Italian girlfriend what the form was, should I write or whatever. She said that in the old days, people generally took food parcels round as they realised that without a man in the house, the woman be impoverished.
But, you know, unemployed or widowed aside, don't you sometimes wonder how other people manage, small shop keepers, for instance? The guy in my village who sells vegetables for living, and not even all that many vegetables. I always buy from him even though he's more expensive than anywhere else and occasionally his spuds, for instance, have seen better days. I buy from him and the hardwear man and the local petrol station because I want to try and keep them in business for it can't be easy.

Many elderly ladies, who have never worked (at a 'job') in their lives but bought up their families with ALL that entailed, now find difficulties.

SO - a widow, will be entitled, for life, to what is called the 'Reversibilità' which is a percentage of her late husbands pension. This will be added to the minimum basic which has just been raised - the govenment said that EVERY person of pensionable age shoud have a pension, after taxes, of no less than €500 per month. So the widow who never paid contriutions WILL be entitled to the minimum and the Reversibilità. So she could well come out with an (almost) acceptable sum. BUT it will be taxed!

But the spinster who has perhaps lived with elderly parents and cared for them to the end will only be guaranteed the €500 before tax, and I personally know of many who, after tax, are paid just €389 per month TOTAL! But they DO get the 'Trediciesima' (the extra month's payment) at Christmas. That probably means they can have some chicken instead of just an egg!

[quote=Violetta;113773].............. I buy from him and the hardwear man and the local petrol station because I want to try and keep them in business for it can't be easy.[/quote]

That is something us 'holidaymakers' should do. Whilst I do use the large supermarkets for some things, I always buy bread etc from the local shops, often use the local mini-market, and always try use the local garage at least once each visit for petrol - after all, we go there to enjoy the area/life, so we should all do something to support the locals.

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Why do Angry and Robert always follow me?

Perhaps rather than berateing people whom you consider to be "feckless" it might be more productive to rember why you are on this forum and for many why you are able to live here. Perhaps it might be the advantages you had when younger, parents with good parenting skills, free education, grants for futher education, less distanced family, less single parents. I am not knocking single parents they have a tough enough job without that bigotry, but in the past women stayed within abusive relationships because they were not financially independant.
It doesnt seem useful now to complain about the welfare state, when it gave my generation so much, and had you not had careing parents, might you not be in the same position as some of these young people now.? There will always be stories via the Daily Mail of systems that are abused, but many are thankful for a life line, and irrespective of the so called "sins" of the mothers those systems are in place to protect their children, someting we could all perhaps agree on.
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[quote=Nielo;113793]I thought that the government was encouraging people to have children by making a one off payment to new mums. Was I dreaming? Or was it just certain communes?[/quote]

No you weren't dreaming. I am waiting to see if I'll be getting my "bonus bebè", I'll let you know when I find out. I've heard it was withdrawn almost as quickly as it was introduced, and one theory being bandied about is that it's because it would probably be more of an incentive to "extracomunitari" than to Italians. No idea if it has been withdrawn though, and no idea if that was the reason. Will let you know though.

Why do Angry and Robert always follow me?

Neilo, my post was not directed at anyone in particular, just at the general tone of the thread. I agree it is vexing to see people abuse the system, but I dislike the bashing that some groups of people get by association. Surely incapacity benefit is not a "handout" but something which you would qualify for and should receive having contributed to the system. I too have worked all my life and now if you like am reaping the benefits of that, but I worked with homeless people, single mothers, and people with mental health problems, and these people should not all be tarred with the same brush, there are many life circumstances which bring people to grief and a reliance on benefits....there for the grace of god........
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I think that most governments are nowadays very careful about giving benefits to anyone. On the other hand there will always be people who will cheat, if they can get away with it, and others that are not getting the level of assistance they deserve and earned. This is not a perfect world; however I would tend to be generous with allowances particularly in the case of people with disabilities, those caring for the aged and the sick - a category that is not sufficiently recognised - and mothers with young children. On the other hand I would be very strict with those who rob ordinary people of their savings, such as all those who have been recently in the limelight for their frauds and little games of "Monopoly" with other people's money. They are the people we should worry about. I haven't heard of any Social Security recipient who drives a Rolls Royce or owns penthouses in Manhattan or an island in the Caribbean.

Tricky one J&C, dont know the answer to that, it is always irritating. I have to admit that when there were water shortages in England a neighbour went out every night after dark with a hosepipe to water his garden, my elderley neighbours and ourselves using washing up water and abiding by the rules. I did talk to the neighbour and suggested this was unfair, but he actually didnt care, so......
He didnt do it again, not sure what the fine was:bigergrin:

Difficult to advise, JC. You have to be absolutely certain of what you are doing. Anyway, it will be an exceptional case and I do not think that there would be too many around who would be in the same situation. It is morally wrong, though and they will have it on their conscience.

From a previous thread you gave your profession as a Detective JC(The Case of the Missing Grazies) and, as such, you have to dob (but only after you've roughed them up a bit, Guv):policeman:

How would being a member of a forum and well known make what is wrong, right?

[quote=juliancoll;113821]But what if that person was a member here - someone on this forum - someone we all 'know' well?

What would you do then? :eerr:[/quote]

Why should that affect any decision to make the relevnt authorities aware of the situation...

[B]Benfit theft is Benefit theft. It's a CRIME.
There can be NO extenuating circumstances. [/B]

People who are guilty of this crime deserve little or no sympathy. What they are, in effect doing is paramount to turning off the heating in a pensioners home, denying a sick person specific drugs and ensuring that a toddler cannot get a nursery care place... Sound far fetched? But all these thing happen as a result of the continous theft of money that they are not entitled to and that 'most' of [U]us[/U] have been paying for most of our lives. These people make sure they don't get work, pay nothing, and yet are given benefits, vouchers and credits to get things at our expense! Can that be right?

Let's be honest - if we saw a pensioner sraping around in the bottom of his/her purse for sufficient pennies to buy a small loaf of 'yesterdays' bread - what would you do? I know what I did whe it happened to me...
But by the same token, what would you do if someone you know, who you know has NEVER done a days (legal) work was in a furniture shop at the same time as you and they haned over a Special Needs Voucher for some new furniture or new carpet? But you had been saving, and going without, for months to be able to buy a three piece suite?

Are these thefts OK? Maybe you think that we should just shrug them off and think "Well it doesn't really affect me, and I wouldn't really like to 'tell tales anyway'!"
Fine.... but don't crticise those, like me, who would have no qualms at all in shopping such peple and seeing them brought to justice.

And I agree with Nielo to a certain extent - I'd like to see how some of these benfit thieves would cope here with the Italian benefit system!

Hang on - just let me get off [IMG]http://cantonese.options.biz.tm/cantoneseimages/smileys/soapbox.gif[/IMG]

I think I can see where you are coming from J&C, though who knows, and this has been an interesting debate with strong views expressed, but perhaps when it might involve a member of the forum....or are you just posing a moral dilemma?, it would be best kept away from the main forum and this aspect dealt with by pms .As this is a forum about Italy perhaps we should now talk again about the Italian system and not turn it into , (and yes I have joined in ) a personal viewpoint of the woes of the UK system?.
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[quote=Carole B;113828]People who are guilty of this crime deserve little or no sympathy. What they are, in effect doing is paramount to turning off the heating in a pensioners home, denying a sick person specific drugs and ensuring that a toddler cannot get a nursery care place... Sound far fetched? But all these thing happen as a result of the continous theft of money that they are not entitled to and that 'most' of [U]us[/U] have been paying for most of our lives. These people make sure they don't get work, pay nothing, and yet are given benefits, vouchers and credits to get things at our expense! Can that be right?
[/IMG][/quote]

Apparently £800 million pounds were claimed illegally as benefits from public funds over the year 2007-8!!!!!!!! A large amount that could be much much better used.

[quote=juliancoll;113829]I didn't ask if being a well known member of the forum would make a wrong, right Noma - I asked what would you do.

Edit; I've just read your post Carole - but I haven't criticised you - or anyone else - yet. :bigergrin:

Would you like the details so you can dob them in?[/quote]

Oh I'm relieved that you weren't crticising me - though I didn't think you were. That's why I opened my post with:
"Why should that affect any decision to make the relevant authorities aware of the situation...?"

It should make no difference 'who' they are... Friend (?), family member, colleague or, as in the case you are talking about - a [I]sort of[/I] member of a 'club'. But if this club collected suscriptions and had funds, and this 'Oik' that you're talking about pinched the petty cash - wouldn't you shop 'em? Of course you would - and so would I.

But I do suspect that there are some her that would actually draw the line at that. That does surprise me - but perhaps it shouldn't. I don't think there should be ANY stigma attached to blowing the whistle on someone. Suspicions - for that's what they usually are - can be reported anonymously to the Benefits fraud office for them to investigate and then proceed on if tyour 'suspicions' are founded.

And NO - I don't want to know 'who' it is thank you very much. I'm quite happy to let you deal with it/them. I'm sure if I ever return to the UK it wouldn't be hard for me to fall over a few similar cases and to report them.. I've done it before, I could do it again.

Just in case anyone decides to do something

[url=http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/BenefitFraud/DG_10014876]Reporting benefit theft : Directgov - Money, tax and benefits[/url]

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[quote]By Angie: "....As this is a forum about Italy perhaps we should now talk again about the Italian system and not turn it into , (and yes I have joined in ) a personal viewpoint of the woes of the UK system?."[/quote]

Perhaps though it's because we CAN see the advantage and pitfalls on bith systems that this IS such a good debate.

The UK benefits system is an excellent safety net for many in times of desperate need - we all know that. But it also encourages many to [U]EXPECT[/U] to be mollycoddled from birth to death.

The Italian system encourages people to learn self sufficiency the 'hard way'. To stand on their own two feet.

I think that knowing/learning these things through debate helps us to make informed decisions of the kind JC has just posed.

[quote=Carole B;113839] it also encourages many to [U]EXPECT[/U] to be mollycoddled from birth to death.

and I think that's the rub...a sizeable section of UK society now has no aspirations for employment as they can gain enough for an adequate lifestyle from the benefits system in it's many facets.

Either way I agree with CaroleB...to swindle the system is inherently wrong and will lead to checks and balances that will eventually punish the more needy. Hence my earlier encouragement to J&C to 'dob in' the perpetrator(s):yes:

Nielo and JC, I think that I made it clear enough, morally wrong is just plain wrong, because morals should rule our lives. My point was that I do not know of anyone who would fall into the category you describe and that I think that there would not be many in any system as governments are controlling benefit recipients all the time and fraud is not what it used to be in the past. I do agree in the fact that anyone entitled to a benefit should be able to claim it and receive payment. I also think that special situations should be taken into account in any country and, as I said before, I would like certain people such as those caring for the sick or the elderly being recognised for the service they provide to society. There are thousands of women, particularly in Italy, who do this job for many years and they cannot even access respite care. Now, governments are happily handing over millions in subsidies to banks and firms - just a reminder to the situation that Obama is facing with the AIG bonuses to executives paid out with public monies - and they "forget" that they should invest millions to provide the services these people, mostly women, are offering freely to society.

With over 5000 members in the Forum, many could fall into that category, but I would not know. I never ask personal questions and I would not have a clue regarding what most people do for their living. It does not interest me either and I would add that I would prefer not to know. If anyone is doing anything morally wrong it will always be on his/her conscience.

This interesting debate on social security in Italy confirms much of what we were told the other day when our three lovely Italian language teachers came up for lunch at the end of our course. These three women, all around mid/late 30's feel little enthusiasm for the Italian system for themselves or for their family.

Social security is something they aspire to but this will only come if they are able to get permanent, paid, secure employment - and then be able to pay into a system which might then look after them in their old age. The described how the Italian system still works on who you know, it doesn't matter how qualified you are for the job if you are not 'introduced' then forget it. They also bemoaned the fact that Italy is run by old old men, in fact by old old rich rich men and these people know little and care even less about the lives of the needy. I know this is a little off thread but without work there are no social security payments.

One of the teachers is married, but there is so little work for her skilled engineer husband (masters level) in this area that he works away during the week and only returns home at weekends. The second's husband has been made redundant and there is no social security support for him - only her salary and with many fewer students because of the global crisis, her hours have been cut to 5 a week!
The third is not married - lives at home because she, at the age of 37 with teaching/degrees in history/art cannot get work that will pay enough to enable her to be independent.

Their understanding of social security is the family and as others above have said without the family it is the cardboard box at Milan railway station.

As for the point running through this debate on benefit cheats - for me, a cheat is a thief whether on the scale of Bernie Madoff or Joe Bloggs who claims disability benefit while spending every Tuesday and Thursday at the not so local golf course! Someone always suffers as a result of theft either directly or indirectly and it is always wrong.... but would I steal a loaf of bread if my children were starving, yes of course!

[quote=Gala Placidia;113858]With over 5000 members in the Forum, many could fall into that category, but I would not know. I never ask personal questions and I would not have a clue regarding what most people do for their living. It does not interest me either and I would add that I would prefer not to know. If anyone is doing anything morally wrong it will always be on his/her conscience.[/quote]

But '[U][I]just supposing[/I][/U]' that, somehow or other you [I]did[/I] find out - by whatever means - would your conscience allow [B]you[/B] to sleep at night if you chose not to do anything about it? That's the moral dilemma...

After all - it could be anyone who is drawing a load of benefits in the UK, has a small restructured house/apartment here - all paid for out of state benefits and money from undeclared work received over time - [U][I]and[/I][/U] who is now ready to rent out for an additional (undeclared) income. If [I]you[/I] discovered that it was [I]me[/I], are you saying that you would do nothing because "I" should be suffering from a conscience over the fraud? But if it [U][I]was[/I][/U] me - [B]I probably wouldn't give a damn what anybody thought![/B]

Do you really think there are many Joe Bloggs in a properly run Social Security system? I think that nowadays there are plenty of ways that allow authorities to run very strict checks on everyone.
On the other hand people like Madoff and other fraud artists cause terrible harm to the economies as people who were relying on their private investments to live in retirement will have to claim benefits and this is going to put an extra burden on the provision of extended services.
The Italian system definitely has flaws as it is not possible to keep people unprotected the way they are nowadays. This happens not only in Italy, in Spain there is a similar system and families usually have to came to the aid of those in a difficult position. Now, with the level of taxes we are all paying nowadays this should not happen. There should be enough protection for any genuine claimant. Another problem, which is endemic, is the fact that many people receive "black" money instead of a proper permanent contract that will ensure their future. There are quite a few issues which need to be addressed and perhaps the re-shaping of the world's economy - as some big changes will certainly have to take place because of the crisis - may be the right time to fix a system which is obviously unfair. We can always hope for this!

Gala,

[LEFT]The problem arises when Joe Bloggs tries to impersonate Madoff!!

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7946841.stm]BBC NEWS | Scotland | Glasgow, Lanarkshire and West | Seven jailed over benefit fraud[/url]

:smile:[/LEFT]

[quote=anne2;113833]Apparently £800 million pounds were claimed illegally as benefits from public funds over the year 2007-8!!!!!!!! A large amount that could be much much better used.[/quote]

And about £5billion went unclaimed. Benefit cheats are a tiny proportion of those who need assistance at some point in their lives, and IMHO the baby is in danger of being thrown out with the bathwater in this thread

Aretina's story of her language teachers strikes many a chord. Male,pale,stale authority figures who are happy to take advantage of (mostly female) unpaid carers. There's two sides (as always) to this vision of the delightful family-orientated Italian system. As ever it's open to appalling exploitation and stagnation as I think those Italians who leave to find jobs abroad will be the first to tell you.

Carole, everyone must follow what his/her conscience dictates. Guilt and remorse are not good companions. By the same token, one must be certain that the accusations are genuine and not founded in rumour or speculation.

Just a couple of observations...

1. Benefit fraud is the poor robbing their peer group and not caring one bit about it.

2. Bank failures, excessive bonus and pension payments to CEO's et al are fraud against any one who lets them get away with it (and to my mind, encouraged them).

Tell me - how can ONE CEO be given a bonus of [B]$11.000.000[/B] for [U][I]one year[/I][/U] which, on top of his salary of [B]$3.300.00[/B]0 means he will take home - [I]following 12 months of his bank failing [/I]- a sum which it would take me, and thousands of other pensioners,
[SIZE=4][U][B]705 YEARS[/B][/U][/SIZE] each to recieve at my pension rate!

As you say, it is disgusting. Perhaps society needs a big shake up.