11982 Standard of living V Quality of life

Nielo,

You have just described how I imagine our lives will be when we finally get to live in Italy.

Thank YOU !!

As for a reduced standard of living ........surely a better quality of life is an enhanced standard of living?

Now must get back to putting all my old "power suits" on Ebay to help finance Operation Tuscany!

Apart from the growing vegetables bit (my garden is still awaiting my neighbours to complete their entrance), though I do have fruit trees.. and the lugging logs around for heating - your lifestyle Nielo, mirrors mine very closely.

My business suits and shoes 'with heels' are mostly still in the boxes they were packed in. The jackets do come in handy in spring an autumn, but a comfy cardi over an equally comfy dress or blouse and skirt is far more in place with this lifestyle. Haven't changed my car now since 1999 - and it still serves me well. No more car changes every 18 months!

Being an 'incomer' meant working at being accepted (that has been the same on every move I've ever made) ,and had I not been willing to accept and blend in with the culture here while retaining, but not imposing my culture, then I'm 99% certain that I would have been made to feel unwelcome and would have left some time ago!

But like you - I find here that even living and eating well, I too often have a little money left at the end of the month (despite the recession). I don't [U][I]have[/I][/U] to 'go out' every week for a meal and 'going for a drink' here usually entails an aperitivo by the lake or a caffè in th local bar with other ladies...

Would I swap all this for the life style (and salary) I had before?
Well that's easy to answer...

NO - NEVER, EVER!

Standard of living is measured against what the others have or do. Basically, you are comparing everything, every time. You cannot measure quality of life; this is something that your heart and your mind will tell you every day without the need for words. It is as intangible as happiness. But you will certainly feel it.

There are a great many things one needed over there, that are not needed to enjoy life here in Italy. There are few occasions to "dress-up" and even fewer where silver cutlery and cut glass is required.
If there is no reason to work in Italy and funds are available, then one can live very well indeed but not in the same way and most of us don't want to anyway.
Good health, physical strength and money in the bank where ever you are is paramount. To live happily in Italy these are not desirable they are essential. As has been said before, no matter how frugal you think you are, Italy is an expensive country to live in. Neilo I gather, is frugal and lives in a small house and is also prepared to labour a bit to heat it. Winter can be very harsh and summer is far too short...........so wipe those rose pink spectacles before you make the leap.

[quote=Nielo;114324]
My OH has a DJ languishing in the wardrobe with friends [/quote]

My OH still has Tommy Vance and his mates hostage in a shed here. I say why? Time has moved on, let them go. But she has serious issues still with his drive time show, non lo so perche.:no:

Seriously Nielo you have taken un chiodo and hit it proprio al testa.

How poor am I ? - moltissimo:yes: How rich do I feel ? moltissimo :yes:

What does that make me - an escapee who has found un posto giusto.

[quote=Noble;114334]so wipe those rose pink spectacles before you make the leap.[/quote]

You should never take extreme physical exercise wearing gogs. Take 'em off then jump - it's deep (the water ) here, but ogni tanto you find a nice warm current.

Noble is right. In order to fully enjoy life in Italy or anywhere you need some type of financial security. You can be frugal but you need to know that money in the bank can cover that frugality. And this applies to Italy or to any other country around the world. Peace of mind is most important for our quality of life.

No rose tinted glasses here – they came off around the time I started logging on to this forum.:smile:

However, as my OH says the prospect of being able to live (comfortably) in Italy is what makes him want to get up in the morning.

So we will continue to work hard and save so that we too can open a bottle of Prosecco on our balcony and watch the sun go down.

My husband has just come in to tell me his new plan – “I could teach Karate in Italy”……think that might be the beer glasses talking.

I think a lot depends on what you do in Italy. I work (freelance) and I find living here financially tough. High taxes and contributions, long hours (dare not turn down work, like all freelancers) and not much spending power. My position is the same as all Italians I know. None of us feels rich. I imagine that if you come here with lots of savings and financial security, your biggest problem is going to be getting bored looking at that view with your prosecco in hand. I mean, every night...

The boredom factor isn't one you should underestimate, though. I know of some people here who complain about having nothing to do... Just like retirement anywhere, I'd imagine.

So right re boredom and often many of the options available to retirees, especially those wishing to remain active in some way other than physical, aren't available here. I'm thinking of all the volunteer/charity work that so many of my friends in London do and enjoy hugely. I realise some work of this variety is available but not, I feel, to the same extent as in the UK.

Gone to Uncovered to speak freely

[quote=Nielo;114387]Nor is prosseco on the balcony a nightly event.

Awww nooooo my dreams have just been shattered :winki:

(as for the snow shovels - I got a shiny new spade for Mothers Day!)

[quote=English teacher;114378]I think a lot depends on what you do in Italy. I work (freelance) and I find living here financially tough. [/quote]

I was thinking something similar before you posted, and I also think GalaP's point about security is also relevant. Currency drops aside, at least with a pension you can do some planning. I have a small pension but was really pleased to get a contract teaching at local scuole elementari: knowing I have a small additional but definite income until the end of the academic year is a great help for planning (and spending!), but like others who work I can't guarantee I'll have it next year. They're happy with me but will there be a budget....

I enjoy my Thursday night apperitivo that much more knowing I've earned it (and I can't do Wednesdays and Fridays due to football training).:-)

If you make the decision to relocate from UK to live in Italy and then say you are bored, I have no sympathy at all with you! There is a language to learn and soooo much to do and see for a start! If you are bored here I expect you'd be bored where ever you choose to live.

The standard of living will depend on how much money you will have in any country; however, the Italian quality of life is amongst the best. I would add than in Italy you can get a better quality of life with a lower standard of living. But then, it depends on what you consider a higher standard of living or a better quality of life. It is getting complicated, but then, it is not easy to define. What is best for me may not be great for other people.

A good point Nielo! Most Italians would dream of working in the UK as pay is higher, opportunities greater, and there are lower taxes. Personally, I prefer working with Italians to working with the Brits - it's only with the benefit of having worked here for so many years that I can truly appreciate how up their own a**** most British employers and organisations are. In any case, for me it's not about how much you earn (otherwise I'd never have become a teacher) but how much less depressing it is to work somewhere beautiful, or where you have space, and where you don't have to spend hours commuting.

[quote=Noble;114411]If you make the decision to relocate from UK to live in Italy and then say you are bored, I have no sympathy at all with you! There is a language to learn and soooo much to do and see for a start! If you are bored here I expect you'd be bored where ever you choose to live.[/quote]

A touch harsh I feel. In order to learn the language better there comes a point when you need the money for lessons. To go and see other parts of Italy also requires money (petrol, accommodation etc) however much you would like to go and do those things. If you are in the fortunate position of having an income that allows you to do those things I can understand why you are never bored as there are indeed many things to go and do and see, but a lot of us are struggling on the financial front at the moment.

I'm not generally someone who suffers from boredom but as I said on another post in winter I do find it boring at times. It is not the fact that there is nothing to fill my time that creates a sense of boredom but a feeling of needing some life/something going on, especially when the weather is rotten. I actually find myself craving a trip to the city! In summer there is always so much going on that it seems a very extreme difference.

Am I alone in failing to see the distinction between quality of life and standard of living?

Not sure if the phrases are always used this way in everyday speech, but standard of living is meant to be more objective and quantitive, while quality of life is more subjective- how a person perceives their life.

[quote=Charles Phillips;114446]Am I alone in failing to see the distinction between quality of life and standard of living?[/quote]

Well the way I see it is this:

If I still lived in England I would have a reasonable income. I wouldn't be losing 35% of the value of my pension due to the recession (aka those greedy s*ds in 'bankland'). One which, while it wouldn't permit me to take an annual cruise, It would allow me travel throughout the UK or Europe for short holidays. I would still need to be prudent, but I wouldn't be on the poverty line. I would have enough to meet my regular bills.
So I could, in all honesty say that my 'Standard of Living' was pretty good, compared to some.

[B]BUT[/B]

If I did still live in England, to ensure that my standard of living allowed me to live as described above, there would, without a doubt, be a few distinct and important drawbacks. Top of 'my' list would be the fear of being attacked by an individual or a gang of youths. Fear to open my front door to anyone. Then a worry that maybe I wouldn't be given a particular drug I may need purely because I lived in the wrong town. Not being able to leave things out in my garden for fear of theft. I would worry about 'road rage' and how it really could affect me. I would have to watch a younger generation slowly (?) descending into the abyss of acoholism with their incomprehensible 'binge drinking'. And I would see examples everywhere of what drug taking does to people. I would be almost surrounded by people who couldn't care less about me - or anyone else for that matter. People who's main interest in life is 'themselves'.

So all-in-all my 'Quality of Life' would be dreadful - quite different to what is is now living here where I do. Here I don't have all the worries I would have back in the UK.

But my Quality of Life is without a doubt 'to die for' and one which I'm sure many envy!

[quote=Charles Phillips;114446]Am I alone in failing to see the distinction between quality of life and standard of living?[/quote]

No - but if you can't pay your bills and are worrying about how to pay the tax man your quality of life is affected.

If you are financially secure then it is easier to separate those two things. If you are not, then they become intrinsically linked.

[QUOTE=Penny;114425] .....A touch harsh I feel. There comes a point when you need the money for lessons. To go and see other parts of Italy also requires money (petrol, accommodation etc) however much you would like to go and do those things. If you are in the fortunate position of having an income that allows you to do those things I can understand why you are never bored as there are indeed many things to go and do and see, but a lot of us are struggling on the financial front at the moment.

Dear Penny I commented earlier in this thread ..."Good health, physical strength and money in the bank where ever you are is paramount. To live happily in Italy these are not desirable they are essential". I understand that many younger expats living in Italy, are trying to make a living and are finding it extremely hard. Italy is not a place I would choose to work. I applaud those that do but it can't be for the money.

Gone to Uncovered to speak freely

[quote=Nielo;114464]Standard of living

1. Own room with toilet facilities, TV, central heating, access to gym, free education, three meals a day. Prisoner in the UK
2. Tent, no running water, no sanitary provisions, hot in day cold at night, food mostly goat and rice, no electricity. Bedouin nomad

One has a higher standard of living the other has a better quality of life.

Simples!:eeeek:[/quote]

What a great explanation, so simple to understand - I wish I'd thought of that.
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[I probably will some time!]

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It is interesting to read what the Declaration of Human Rights has to say about standards of living:
QUOTE
"Article 25
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."
UNQUOTE

Blimey Carole, I'm surprised anyone wants to come here let alone why we stay!! (in England that is)

Could you post your fears around the world as that might stop a few foreigners coming here.:laughs:

We made the big leap permanently to Italy 5 years ago, and have not regretted it for one moment. We are surviving on a very small pension, about a third of what we needed to live in the UK, but we have never been happier. As the pound has dropped against the euro I have gone back to making my own bread, preserves, pies and pasta and we drink so little alcohol that it is almost embarrassing! We also grow our own vegetables and buy what we cant grow from local markets. We have more friends out here, and more time for our friends than we ever had in the UK. We have had so much kindness bestowed on us from so many Italians. I can honestly say that I have never been bored out here. There is always something to do, something to see, or someone to talk to. We dont go very far in our car because we want to conserve diesel, but also there is enough going on in your immediate area in Italy. The other major advantage is that our grandchildren love it out here, and we love having them stay with us when you can see everything again through a childs eyes. The wonder of trying to catch fireflies or watching baby wild boar dig is something they would never experience in the UK.

Living in Italy is different, not always 'better' or 'worse' than in the UK. It's how you deal with stuff that matters.

[quote=borrini;114532]Blimey Carole, I'm surprised anyone wants to come here let alone why we stay!!

Could you post your fears around the world as that might stop a few foreigners coming here.:laughs:[/quote]

What did I say? Did I put people off coming to Italy?
That wasn't my intention I assure you... :wideeyed:

I did say that those fears were what I would have - [U]had I stayed in the UK[/U]!

Sorry for confusion Carole. I'm in 'the other place'

You should have added the weather! Will we get a summer this year or won't we? That's England for you, keeps everybody guessing. LOL

Best wishes B

[quote=mammamia;114547]We made the big leap permanently to Italy 5 years ago, and have not regretted it for one moment. We are surviving on a very small pension, about a third of what we needed to live in the UK, but we have never been happier. As the pound has dropped against the euro I have gone back to making my own bread, preserves, pies and pasta and we drink so little alcohol that it is almost embarrassing! We also grow our own vegetables and buy what we cant grow from local markets. We have more friends out here, and more time for our friends than we ever had in the UK. We have had so much kindness bestowed on us from so many Italians. I can honestly say that I have never been bored out here. There is always something to do, something to see, or someone to talk to. We dont go very far in our car because we want to conserve diesel, but also there is enough going on in your immediate area in Italy. The other major advantage is that our grandchildren love it out here, and we love having them stay with us when you can see everything again through a childs eyes. The wonder of trying to catch fireflies or watching baby wild boar dig is something they would never experience in the UK.[/quote]

Nail on Head ... too right