In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Hi and thanks.
I check Ansa and Reuters websites for news updates, the television is not reliable at all on figures.
[url=http://www.ansa.it]ANSA.it[/url]
[url]http://it.reuters.com/[/url]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
We felt it here, but are far enough away for only the windows to shake , and no damage, but feel very sorry for those left homeless and those who have lost family and friends.
A
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
If any foreign houseowners had their property damaged, I am available to assist and advice on the necessary procedures to get the government financial aid which is granted in a situation like this.
I survived the 23rd November 1980 earthquake in Campania, 60 seconds of 6.9 Richter scale magnitude, which makes this one in Abruzzo look like a piece of cake.
I know how stressing is to solve any problems related to such an extraordinary event.
Count on me for any help you might need.
earthquake
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 03:28In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
hi everyone, awful news about the earthquake, we have a house in civitaquana about one hour away i rang my friend in the village and they said the village got a shock but no other problems, we are on the other side of the mountains so not affected i can only hope that is the end of it,Maureen
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Heard the awful news about this on GMTV this morning and on the BBC website. 27 dead so far including 5 children. We're praying for the people there, and wondering if there's anything else we can do to help. Glad to hear people on this forum are ok.
We still have a dream to one day make Italy our home, and this does not diminish it. We just feel a bit helpless in this situation.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Hi M&C, soon they will set up an official helpline for donations, I'll publish details here when available. Let's pray for all those been hit.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
This is the map published by the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology, showing the italian territory with the the areas more at risk of earthquakes.
There is a pdf document on [url]http://zonesismiche.mi.ingv.it/documenti/mappa_opcm3519.pdf[/url]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
A larger version of the map.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
On the following link there is a list of each municipality at risk of earthquakes in Italy:
[url]http://www.geoastrovulcanologia.eu/elenco%20zone%20sismiche.pdf[/url]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
On this blog:
[url=http://www.earthquake.it/blog/]Terremoto Blog[/url]
anyone willing to help the victims of the earthquake can post his idea of contributing somehow ([U]NOT[/U] MONEY) .
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
The email address to help the victims is:
[email]pro-aquila@earthquake.it[/email]
( reference page is [url=http://www.earthquake.it/blog/2009/offerte-di-aiuto-per-il-terremoto-de-laquila/#more-125]Terremoto Blog Offerte di aiuto per il terremoto de L’Aquila[/url] )
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Following the 03.32 AM event, another 25 shockwaves have occurred so far and are continuing:
( M = magnitude)
03.32 M 6.0
04.14 M 3.3
04.19 M 3.2
04.28 M 4.2
04.31 m 3.5
04.37 M 4.9
04.41 M 3.3
04.48 M 3.3
04.55 M 3.3
04.59 M 3.0
05.18 M 3.4
05.33 M 3.3
05.57 M 4.5
06.08 M 3.0
06.13 M 3.1
06.47 M 3.8
07.03 M 3.2
07.15 M 3.2
07.28 M 3.0
07.41 M 3.0
07.50 M 3.0
09.16 M 4.2
10.40 M 3.3
11.59 M 3.1
12.04 M 3.3
12.11 M 3.6
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Those who want to send a donation for the Abruzzo Earthquake relief, they can do that on the bank account with IBAN number:
IT03 Y010 3002 8060 0000 5000 036
(reference [url=http://www.ugem.info/news.asp?dett=60]Som Virtuale Misericordie - Ufficio Gestione Emergenze di Massa delle Misericordie d'Italia[/url])
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
If anyone from abroad has difficulties in contacting relatives or friends living in Abruzzo, feel welcome to contact me and I'll do the best I can to help out.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Hello,
Is volunteer needed in the area? do they need people? I heard many villages got hit. If volunteers are needed, how can international citizens like me volunteer? ( I live in Canada) I've inquired with local organization, but nothing so far.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Hi andrejeffry,
the official website of the rescuers is [url=http://www.protezionecivile.it/]Benvenuto nel sito - Protezionecivile.it[/url], their contact details are on [url=http://www.protezionecivile.it/contatti/index.php]Contatti - Protezionecivile.it[/url].
If you contact them on [email]infosito@protezionecivile.it[/email] they will tell you how you can volunteer for the rescue operations or any other useful aid.
Press Photographs
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 04:20In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
A collection of press photo's.
So much suffering and devastation - I feel so helpless!
[B]Open the link.[/B]
Two lists on the right
[B]Top list:[/B]
Tutte le photo (All the photo's)
Groups of Photos - [I]scroll down on it for more.[/I]
[B]Bottom list:[/B]
Immagine (Images)
Once you have chosen your 'group' above,
[I]use the 'arrows' at the side to move through the list.[/I]
[B][URL="http://www.corriere.it/gallery/Cronache/vuoto.shtml?2009/04_Aprile/terremoto/10&1"]' >LINK HERE< '[/URL]
.
[/B]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Hi Carol,
you can help by sending a donation, or by offering temporarily your holiday accomodation in Abruzzo to the victims of the earthquake, or by any other way you can think of.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Those who want to send over food or blankets or anything else, can contact [email]segreteria@abruzzo.bancoalimentare.it[/email] , it's the email address of Banco Alimentare dell’Abruzzo, in Via Celestino V n°4 - 65129 Pescara (PE) - Tel. 085-43.13.975
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
If anyone has a holiday house in Abruzzo that they would like to offer temporarily to homeless victims of the earthquake, contact me on [email]info@houseabruzzo.com[/email] and I'll help to give you the information you need to do that.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
For blood donations:
ROMA
Domani 7 Aprile alla Luiss (viale Romania 32, Roma) dalle 8.00 alle 11.00 l'Avis raccoglie il sangue per l'emergenza terremoto
MILANO
Centro Trasfusionale della clinica Mangiagalli
Segreteria Donatori
TEL. 02.5503.4102/ 4132
La Segreteria è disponibile dal lunedì al venerdì dalle ore 8 alle 16.30;il sabato dalle 8 alle 14
MAIL1 [email]donat@policlinico.mi.it[/email]
MAIL2 [email]info@donatorisangue.org[/email]
LIGURIA
L'assessore alla salute della Regione Liguria suggerisce ai liguri di dilazionare le donazioni.
Comunicato AVIS Liguria
ALTRO
Potete contattare le sedi locali AVIS e FIDAS
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
For donations, you can use the RED CROSS:
Croce Rossa Italiana
Fonte: [url=http://www.cri.it/]Appello Croce Rossa Italiana[/url]
Conto Corrente Bancario
C/C BANCARIO n° 218020 presso: Banca Nazionale del Lavoro-Filiale di Roma Bissolati
Tesoreria - Via San Nicola da Tolentino 67 – Roma
intestato a Croce Rossa Italiana Via Toscana, 12 - 00187 Roma.
Coordinate bancarie (codice IBAN) relative sono:
IT66 - C010 0503 3820 0000 0218020
Causale: PRO TERREMOTO ABRUZZO
Conto Corrente Postale n. 300004
intestato a: "Croce Rossa Italiana, via Toscana 12 - 00187 Roma
c/c postale n° 300004
Codice IBAN: IT24 - X076 0103 2000 0000 0300 004
Causale PRO TERREMOTO ABRUZZO
Si può anche donare tramite carta di credito all'indirizzo [url=http://www.cri.it/donazioni/index.php?mode=form]Donazioni - Croce Rossa Italiana[/url].
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Volunteers can contact the Centro operativo della Protezione Civile presso la Prefettura di Pescara, calling 085 2057631.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
These are the CASA POUND collection points in Italy for goods you would like to send to the homeless in Abruzzo:
Centri di raccolta:
ROMA - Via Napoleone III, 8
ROMA - Via degli Orti di Malabarba, 15
LATINA - Via XVIII Dicembre, 33
SULMONA - Corso Ovidio, 208
TORINO - Via Cellini, 22
MILANO - Via San Brunone, 17
MILANO - Via Pareto, 14
DOMODOSSOLA - Piazza della convenzione, 5
VERONA - Via Poloni, 30
BOLOGNA - Piazza di Porta Castiglione, 12
PISTOIA - Via Porta San Marco, 161
RIETI - Via Garibaldi, 139
AREZZO - Via San Lorentino, 51
FERENTINO(FR) - Via Guglielmo Marconi, 100
SORA(FR) - via lucio Gallio 9
ARNARA - via dei fossi snc
SALERNO - Via Galdo, 4
NAPOLI - Via degli Astronauti
AVELLINO - Via Circumvallazione, 55
AVELLINO - Piazza Trecine, 5
BARI - Via Garruba, 22
PALERMO - Via Tevere, 4
SASSARI - Via degli astronauti, 3
SIENA - Via Stalloreggi, 87
LAMEZIA TERME - piazza s.giovanni 17
TODI - Portici Comunali Piazza del Popolo
PARMA - Via Iacchia, 33
REGGIO EMILIA - Via Montefiorino, 10/h
BOLZANO - BAR8 - via Dalmazia 16 - 39100
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=HouseAbruzzo;115596]If anyone has a holiday house in Abruzzo that they would like to offer temporarily to homeless victims of the earthquake, contact me on [email]info@houseabruzzo.com[/email] and I'll help to give you the information you need to do that.[/quote]
Thank you to those wha have already contacted me offering accomodation for the homeless of the earthquake in L'Aquila area.
Please note that accomodation must be offered for a minimum of six months, as people need time to reorganize their lives and find a new permanent home.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
We contacted our local comune to see if we could offer any help - i.e. our house for temporary accommodation and they have sent back the following. I presume these are the numbers for those co-ordinating aid.
A terrible time for every one concerned.
Jackie
EMERGENZA TERREMOTO Abruzzo Per offrire disponibilità di alloggio: l’UDU sta cercando posti letto telefonare allo 06.43411763 o scrivere a [email]organizzazione@udu.it[/email] Per volontari da tutta Italia: telefonare alla protezione civile nazionale 06.68201 Per volontari da Pescara: telefonare al Centro operativo della Protezione Civile presso la Prefettura di Pescara 085.2057627 Per donare il sangue in Abruzzo: rivolgersi presso gli ospedali, per Pescara: Dipartimento di Medicina Trasfusionale PO “Spirito Santo” via Fonte Romana 8 – tel. 085.4252687 Per donare il sangue dal tutta Italia: rivolgersi presso le strutture dell’Avis più vicine: [url=http://www.avis.it/usr_view.php/ID=1545]Avis Nazionale: le Sedi Avis dove è possibile donare[/url] Per fare donazioni: Raccolta fondi Croce Rossa Italiana: Conto corrente bancario C/C n. 218020 presso BNL - roma, intestato a CRI, codice Iban IT66 - C010 0503 3820 0000 0218020, causale: pro terremoto Abruzzo; Conto corrente postale n. 300004 intestato a CRI causale: pro terremoto Abruzzo;Versamenti on line sul sito: [url]www.cri.it/donazioni.html[/url] Per enti locali e associazioni di volontariato, comitati, gruppi organizzati: è possibile attivarsi da subito con i corpi locali di protezione civile, con la associazioni prendendo contatti con i coordinamenti regionali, c’è bisogno di medici, tende, coperte, cibo e supporto logistico. Per informarsi: Dipartimento della Protezione Civile 06.68201
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
06.43411763 is one of the numbers to call for offering accomodation, I confirm that jackie c. , well done.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Anyone wishing to help those affected by the earthquake can donate through the British Red Cross Disaster Fund Appeal. It is in contact with the Italian Red Cross through the organisation's International Federation.
Those wishing to donate can do so online, by visiting [URL="http://www.redcross.org.uk/disasterfund"]www.redcross.org.uk/disasterfund[/URL].
From The Daily Telegraph today.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Any Red Cross branch in most countries are currently accepting donations towards the Italian Disaster Fund.
Red Cross
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 14:02In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Donations can be made on line
[URL="http://www.redcross.org.uk/index.asp?id=39992"]British Red Cross homepage | British Red Cross[/URL]
Another big one at 19.47
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 14:28In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I'm in Spoltore, 100 km from L'Aquila, and at 19.47 the house was shaken by the second strongest wave, 5.8 magnitude, in the long series of recent seismic events.
This is the chronology so far:
DATA ORA loc ML
--------------------
[B]07 APR 19.47 M 5.8 [/B]
07 APR 14.29 M 3.5
07 APR 12.29 M 3.2
07 APR 12.15 M 3.5
07 APR 11.42 M 2.9
07 APR 11.30 M 3.9
07 APR 11.25 M 4.8
07 APR 11.24 M 3.6
07 APR. 08.15 M 3.0
07 APR. 01.15 M 5.0
07 APR. 00.47 M.3.7
06 APR. 23.56 M.3.9
06 APR. 18.38 M 4.0
06 APR. 15.14 M 3.2
06 APR. 12.36 M 3.5
06 APR. 12.11 M 3.6
06 APR. 12.04 M 3.3
06 APR. 11.59 M 3.1
06 APR. 10.40 M 3.3
06 APR. 09.16 M 4.2
06 APR. 07.50 M 3.0
06 APR. 07.41 M 3.0
06 APR. 07.28 M 3.0
06 APR. 07.15 M 3.2
06 APR. 07.03 M 3.2
06 APR. 06.47 M 3.8
06 APR. 06.13 M 3.1
06 APR. 06.08 M 3.0
06 APR. 05.57 M 4.5
06 APR. 05.33 M 3.3
06 APR. 05.18 M 3.4
06 APR. 04.59 M 3.0
06 APR. 04.55 M 3.3
06 APR. 04.48 M 3.3
06 APR. 04.41 M 3.3
06 APR. 04.37 M 4.9
06 APR. 04.31 M 3.5
06 APR. 04.28 M 4.2
06 APR. 04.19 M 3.2
06 APR. 04.14 M 3.3
[B]06 APR. 03.32 Mw 6.3[/B]
05 APR. 22.48 M 3.9
05 APR. 02.36 M 2.0
05 APR. 00.39 M 3.5
30 MAR. 23.57 M 3.4
30 MAR. 21.05 M 3.1
30 MAR. 15.43 M 3.5
30 MAR. 15.38 M 4.2
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
i found this link on Il Centro website to very comprehensive coverage of The Earthquake
[url]http://download.kataweb.it/gruppoespresso/ilcentro_20090407.pdf[/url]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=Sally Donaldson;115658]i found this link on Il Centro website to very comprehensive coverage of The Earthquake
[url]http://download.kataweb.it/gruppoespresso/ilcentro_20090407.pdf[/url][/quote]
Nice insert, but the map shows Pescara, Brittoli and Palena, which are not affected, and there is no explanation of the map. [B]Typical superficial journalism taking advantage of a disaster to sell more copies by creating false statistics and news.[/B]
Refer only to the following website for reliable information:
[url=http://www.iesn.org/default.asp]IESN Rete Sismica Sperimentale Italiana[/url]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I'm so sorry but I assumed "proper" coverage. I don't speak Italian and I can't read maps.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I was on the 6th floor of Fermo hospital when the last one hit at 19.50 ish.......bottles crashed, wardrobe doors swung open.....................patiants shouting , not a great deal of fun...........but what about those poor souls down south............thoughts out to them.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Yes, the 19.47 shockwave was real bad, another two followed tonight:
07 APR 23.38 M 3.9
07 APR 23.33 M 4.6
07 APR 19.47 Mw 5.6
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Thanks for the information HouseAbruzzo.
I printed the list and will bring it to our local organization meeting here. Right now I feel like I just wanna do something, anything for these people. My prayers are for them
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Two more this morning:
DATA ORA loc ML
--------------------
08 APR 06.27 M 3.8
08 APR 05.01 M 3.6
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
LATEST UPDATE FOR FOOD DONATIONS:
For those of us living in the Amandola area, we have been to Conad in Amandola and still waiting for them to get back to us with regards to a collection for food donations.
In the meantime, we have been to Conad in Comunanza and they have been really helpful, setting up a donation area and translation our poster into Italian!
So any non-perishable food items greatfully received at Comunanza Conad until 6pm Thursday 9th April. The donations will then be taken by us to Macerata tomorrow night and then on to L'Aquila.
Please tell everyone you know living in the area, every little helps.
I will keep you posted with regards to Amandola Conad. For any more information you can pm us. Thank you.
Seismic Map of Italy
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 04/08/2009 - 07:56In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[URL="http://www.houseabruzzo.com/abruzzo-and-italy-earthquakes-map.asp"][B]Link to map of areas in Italy with seismic activity and history[/B][/URL]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Attached here is the official map of the seismic risk in Abruzzo
The values are expressed in g (accelleration or g-force) and are referred to the maximum accelleration of the ground.
You will notice that the area between the mountains and the seaside is not as dangerous as the area between the mountains and the Lazio region.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
A lot of attention has been brought to the fact that both old and new buildings have collapsed in Abruzzo during the earthquake.
I believe that there are two possible issues to face:
1 - Building guidelines are too generic to be applied on a wide scale without taking into consideration the exact nature and geological structure of the plot where a dwelling is built. A plot in L'Aquila might differ substantially from a plot of building land in Fossa.
2 - The building material used on a dwelling was not good in either its quantity or in its quality, though I find it hard to believe that all building companies in Abruzzo ripped off people on such a large scale, since all buildings were affected by the earthquake.
Italian knowledge in architecture and construction engineering is vast. We were building arches and columns when elsewhere people still lived in huts and caves. This makes it even more urgent for the Government to examine again the buiding regulations. Maybe man's pride has been punished here!
Buildings and earthquakes
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 04/08/2009 - 11:14In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
When we did our renovation in Lunigiana, northern Tuscany, a couple of years ago we were obliged to have steel cages in the roofs as an anti-earthquake measure.
Luckily we haven't found out yet whether we need them.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
That is exactly what I meant in point 2. Maybe a building could have the wrong amount of steel grids placed in the roof and an amount of steel in excess could be a deadly feature in the event of an earthquake if the structure below was not built accordingly.
Day of Mourning on Friday
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 04/08/2009 - 11:53In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=HouseAbruzzo;115725]A lot of attention has been brought to the fact that both old and new buildings have collapsed in Abruzzo during the earthquake.
I believe that there are two possible issues to face:
1 - Building guidelines are too generic to be applied on a wide scale without taking into consideration the exact nature and geological structure of the plot where a dwelling is built. A plot in L'Aquila might differ substantially from a plot of building land in Fossa.
2 - The building material used on a dwelling was not good in either its quantity or in its quality, though I find it hard to believe that all building companies in Abruzzo ripped off people on such a large scale, since all buildings were affected by the earthquake.
Italian knowledge in architecture and construction engineering is vast. We were building arches and columns when elesewhere people still lived in huts and caves. This makes it even more urgent for the Government to examine again the buiding regulations. Maybe man's pride has been punished here![/quote]
Thank you so much for your threads with regard to the earthquake and the up to date news, I really appreciate all you are doing and have wanted to say how sad and upset many Irish people are with the loss of so many lives and so many still suffering.
I read today that Friday is national day of mourning and as we are travelling out late Thursday night and won't arrive until after mid-night with a small baby, could anyone tell me if the supermarkets etc., generally close for the day. I feel quite bad asking such mundane questions at a time like this but if I know that they will be closed, I can then organise to bring enough milk food etc., for the day for the baby. Once again my apologies.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I don't think you need worry about supermarkets being open on Friday - certainly in Tuscany. Perhaps some may close in l'Abruzzo for a short perod of time to demonstrate respect.
You may find that you have the opportunity at the supermarket to make a small contribution to a food collection for the Abruzzese.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Shops are open on Friday. It's on Easter Monday they close (we call this bank holiday Pasquetta or Lunedì dell'Angelo)
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Autogrill never closes, you can get the basics there, at a premium though.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
The seismic events list in Abruzzo:
DATA ORA M
* epic. Campotosto # epic. L'Aquila @ epic. Ocre
--------------------
09 APR 06.43 M 3.8 *
09 APR 06.32 M 4.2 #
09 APR 05.41 M 3.1 *
09 APR 05.14 M 4.3 #
09 APR 04.37 M 3.1 *
09 APR 03.15 M 3.1 *
09 APR 02.52 M 5.2 epicentro lago di Campotosto z=15
09 APR 01.17 M 3.3
09 APR 00.56 M 4.3
09 APR 00.19 M 3.0
08 APR 23.11 M 3.0
08 APR 22.06 M 3.0
08 APR 19.58 M 3.2
08 APR 13.35 M 3.5
08 APR 12.34 M 3.1
08 APR 06.27 M 3.8
08 APR 05.01 M 3.6
07 APR 23.38 M 3.7
07 APR 23.33 M 4.3
07 APR 19.47 Mw 5.5 epicentro zona Ocre z=15
07 APR 14.29 M 3.5
07 APR 12.29 M 3.2
07 APR 12.15 M 3.5
07 APR 11.42 M 2.9
07 APR 11.30 M 3.9
07 APR 11.25 M 4.8
07 APR 11.24 M 3.6
07 APR. 08.15 M 3.0
07 APR. 01.15 M 5.0 epicentro zona Pizzoli z=10
07 APR. 00.47 M.3.7
06 APR. 23.56 M.3.9
06 APR. 18.38 M 4.0
06 APR. 15.14 M 3.2
06 APR. 12.36 M 3.5
06 APR. 12.11 M 3.6
06 APR. 12.04 M 3.3
06 APR. 11.59 M 3.1
06 APR. 10.40 M 3.3
06 APR. 09.16 M 4.2
06 APR. 07.50 M 3.0
06 APR. 07.41 M 3.0
06 APR. 07.28 M 3.0
06 APR. 07.15 M 3.2
06 APR. 07.03 M 3.2
06 APR. 06.47 M 3.8
06 APR. 06.13 M 3.1
06 APR. 06.08 M 3.0
06 APR. 05.57 M 4.5
06 APR. 05.33 M 3.3
06 APR. 05.18 M 3.4
06 APR. 04.59 M 3.0
06 APR. 04.55 M 3.3
06 APR. 04.48 M 3.3
06 APR. 04.41 M 3.3
06 APR. 04.37 M 4.9
06 APR. 04.31 M 3.5
06 APR. 04.28 M 4.2
06 APR. 04.19 M 3.2
06 APR. 04.14 M 3.3
06 APR. 03.32 Mw 6.3 epicentro L'Aquila Z=8
05 APR. 22.48 M 3.9
05 APR. 02.36 M 2.0
05 APR. 00.39 M 3.5
30 MAR. 23.57 M 3.4
30 MAR. 21.05 M 3.1
30 MAR. 15.43 M 3.5
30 MAR. 15.38 M 4.2
Hi Gianpiero. Good to hear that you are fine. On TV it looks as if there are important damages and they still do not know the number of victims.