3592 What is the ideology behind fascism?

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out, because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for me - but there was no one left to speak out for me, so I decided to scream.

Or for a slightly more accurate, but still edited version...

First they came for the communists,
and I did not speak out,
Because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I did not speak out,
Because I was not a jew.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists,
and I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Next they came for the Catholics,
and I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Catholic.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left,
To speak out for me.

The Pastor never screamed, he accepted his fate, and went on to greatness.
I too wonder what modern facists dream, Mark, or how and if they sleep at all, presumably their dreams, whatever are still about a master race, domination racial purity etc., etc.,

Wow! That's if there is no one left to speak out for you!

Pastor Niemoeller was visited by the prison chaplain and the chaplain asked, "Pastor Niemoeller, why are you in prison?" Niemoeller stared back at him and quietly said, "Why are you not?

I don't think a fate such as handed out to Pastor Niemoeller was fair or balanced, that's why I would prefer to scream.

As an ex-student of politics, I've always been fascinated by the ideologies (as opposed to the parochial) of modern parties & found the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_in_Italy]Wikipedia site[/url] a great source of detail.

There are details/backgrounds on:
[list]
[*]National Alliance
[*]Lega Nord
[*]MSI etc...
[/list]
...to call any/all of these fascist is difficult as there's no simple checklist for fascism.

You might consider that many of the traits common to 20thC fascism (authoritarian leadership, intense nationalism, social care [for a few of the 'right type'], shows of public strength, focus on law & order etc...) were common to the Romans.

....so would we classify the Romans as fascists (or were they just the 'winners' who wrote history 'their' way?

Oh, and whether the Romans were/weren't fascists, there have been many more regimes who could be deemed fascist: Imperial Japan; Fanco's Spain; Pinochet's Argentina & (possibly) Pol Pot's Cambodia.

...none of it nice, but as a subject, fascinating to study

D

A fascinating link Mr Hills. Thank you.

I enjoyed reading about Italian Law still being firmly based on Ancient Roman laws, especially Lex Acilia Calpurnia. However, further study may required in order to debate further.

I know what you're saying.....it's never simple to discuss such matter unless everyone maintains:
a - an open mind
b - a desire to learn & not preach

D

Wasn't the Third Reich modelled on the Roman Empire ? - the Roman empire presumably being one of the first two reichs - hence the eagles on standards,
soldiers in skirts, eating of dormice, and making the trains run on time etc.

Marco Mando

1900 Film "Novecento"

For a really interesting treatment of the rise and fall of Fascism in Italy, this film by Bernado Bertolucci is excellent. It has recently been remastered on DVD, but it is only available in Italian, unsubtitled, as far as I know.

The cast list is impressive, a young Gerard Depardieu, Robert de Niro, Burt Lancaster, Sterling Hayden......and Donald Sutherland sneering his way through as the arch Fascist.

The film lasts six hours and cost 10 milliardi to make (probably lire!)

[LEFT][quote=marco mando]Wasn't the Third Reich modelled on the Roman Empire ?....[/quote]
The aim of Hitler was to create an empire that lasted a 1000 years.

Yes, there was roman input to this (hence the facio symbol that today is the Fascist symbol) but there was greek mythology embodies in it too (another 'great' empire) but also an ideal that the 'supermen' races of northern Europe would be the supreme power (Aryan was just an ancient tribe, like the Saxons, Angles, Goths etc...) & the poor old Aryan race (of old) have been mis-represented as often as the Goths, Visi-goths & Vikings.

.....more so in fact as I could hear folk today claiming ancient heritage, but few claiming to be Aryan(!)

....as I said before, not nice folk for many, many reasons.

d[/LEFT]

Isn't the right arm ("Heil Hitler") salute known as the Roman satute it Italy?

Yes, and it still causes a lot of (ahem!) debate as was seen [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/4544008.stm]of late with Di Canio[/url].

d

[QUOTE=Relaxed]1900 Film "Novecento"

For a really interesting treatment of the rise and fall of Fascism in Italy, this film by Bernado Bertolucci is excellent. It has recently been remastered on DVD, but it is only available in Italian, unsubtitled, as far as I know.

The cast list is impressive, a young Gerard Depardieu, Robert de Niro, Burt Lancaster, Sterling Hayden......and Donald Sutherland sneering his way through as the arch Fascist.

The film lasts six hours and cost 10 milliardi to make (probably lire!)[/QUOTE]

Gerard Depardieu must have been very young indeed in 1900............seriously,when was the film made?

John

The definition of Reich is "German State", and in this definition the word "German" is not related to what is today the Country of Germany, but in an ancient meaning of the Germanic Lands.

The First Reich, was also known as The Holy Roman Empire (a continuation of the Roman Empire in Europe), that started in the lands ruled by Charlemagne (Germany, Austria, Eslovenia, Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, Belgium, Czech Republic, eastern France, Northern Italy and western Poland), with a period beginning in the 9th century and finishing in the 19th century.

The Second Reich, also known as The German Empire, ruled by the Hohenzollern dinasty, in the areas known as Prussia and Brandenburg, from 1871 to 1919, they fell with the ending of World War I. During this Reich the "Iron Chancellor" Otto Von Bismark united Germany, and set the roots for World War I.

Then there was a period known as the Weimar Republic, from 1919 to 1933 (called sometimes the pre-3rd Reich).

The Third Reich (from 1933 to 1945), called Nazi Germany, was under Hitler's control. He called it the Third Reich because he thought that under his leadership Germany could reunite the old Holy Roman Empire, bringing Germany back to its glorious days. This Reich was terminated with the fall of Germany at the end of World War II.

This is an interesting question because most people don't know why Hitler started World War II and what was his objective. Of course his delusional beliefs about the supremacy of the German Race and the necessity to reinstate The German Empire (that he believed was the heir of the Roman splendor) cost our world millions of lifes, and his country years of poverty and suffering.

It's a [url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074084/]1976 film[/url].....so that makes him 28 at the time (not so young!)

D

Pace,

Thank you for reminding me of vital parts of my history - things I learned at school 25 years ago! I definitely remember the reference to the Holy Roman Empire, which caused some Italian areas a great deal of trouble at the time too (reading a fascinating book on medieval 'Italian' history at the moment). The aim was expansion as far as possible, so you can easily see the connection to Hitler's ambitions.

Yes, the right arm gesture dates to Roman times with the same purpose. However, it is also known in esoteric circles to suppress energy fields if done in a mass context (not the lifting, but the lowering of the straight arm, as happened so often) - and I'm not surprised that some Nazis dabbled in the occult to try and further their ambitions too.

S

Hello Iona,

I take it then that you are German. I would be interested to hear about what and how you were taught history in school. Was it in great depth or washed over? Did they focus on the positive (and there is a lot) or try to analyse the negative? Did they try to balance the proud and shameful aspects, or lean to one side or the other?

I ask because there is current debate that in British schools now, far too much emphasis is put on the war years (particularly from the "ism" perspective), and not enough on British history.

Hello Pace,

Yup, I'm German though have lived in the UK for over 9 years.

When I was at secondary school (early 80s) we learned more about the negative aspect overall. I think the focus was on the loss of the Great War and the Weimar Republic being the factors that nurtured nationalist tendencies, envy of those who still had money to feed their families and greed.

In the earlier years, we studied very much the political background rather than the ideological, as we weren't really mature enough to gauge the meaning. In subsequent years, when we were a bit older, there were plenty of discussions about ideologies, and how they can go horribly wrong. Nazism & communism were discussed in detail, as both were responsible for millions of deaths. But then, those were still Cold War years and the atmosphere was overall different from today.

I thought I read somewhere that UK schools want to drop history as a core lesson. Not sure how much focus they give on WWII though or if it gets more attention than other aspects of British history.

As a hobby medievalist, I believe history is vital in understanding where a country has come from. In Germany we study histories of many countries, and I learnt alot about British history, which I still find incredibly fascinating. Am currently getting my teeth into medieval Italian history ...

By the way, many Germans are obsessed with royalty - not having any of our own, we love reading about all the European houses to an extent that is unheard of here... as Britain has its own, there's less need to hear about the others!! :D

S

By the way, forgot to mention how I learnt about some of the very few 'positive' aspects of a dictatorship... if you're an insignificant person that is...

My gran still tells me about how, in the early years of Hitler's 'reign', they could freely walk the city streets at night without being molested. Criminals were punished harshly, the infrastructure was greatly improved (though we all know now why!). She felt much safer than now. These days she, like probably many other pensioners, is yearning for tougher punishments, which would keep criminals off the streets. Though she's a staunch Conservative, I think it is similar sentiments which might drive people to vote for right wing parties who are happy to promise whatever people might want.

However, if you were a dissident in the olden days, you had a tough time! Big Brother was watching... and controlling it all relentlessly!

This man might beg to differ....

Prince Georg Friedrich Ferdinand of Prussia, (German: Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preußen) (born June 10, 1976) is the current head of the royal house of Prussia and the imperial house of Germany. He succeeded his grandfather, Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia to these positions in 1994.

Regarding Paolo, maybe he was, as he said, simply making the Roman salute as a salute from one comrade to other comrades. A greeting, an acknowledgement, a wave to friends!

I mean, he defended the gesture, by saying he didn't want to incite violence or racial hatred and it was not intended as a political statement, but that he would continue to acknowledge his fans and his gratitude in whatever way he chooses.

Perhaps, even though he received a one match ban, he was telling the truth. I'd like to believe him, because he is certainly good at what he does and after all, he has also played for Juventus and AC Milan.

Although I understand Di Canio has been compared with Mussolini as a preening, self-obsessed bully and the consequences of his ultimate actions outweighed some of his greatest achievements; Mussolini did not have much appetite for a real battle, preferring to let others do the dirty work for him.

As I said previously, I prefer to scream, especially as I fight my own battles. I agree; everyones take on any situation depends on how open minded they are and how much they are willing to learn. Closed minds lead to small ideas.. and even Hislop said: "Paolo never impressed me as that kind of person when he was here at West Ham."

[QUOTE=Iona]... However, if you were a dissident in the olden days, you had a tough time! Big Brother was watching... and controlling it all relentlessly![/QUOTE]

What's changed? :D

Hello Pace,

Well... the 'house' might still exist (same with the Savoys...) but their roles have been replaced with Presidents. The German gossip press is much more intrigued by 'reigning' monarchs, however little power they actually have ... ;)

S

Returning if we may to the original subject, one which fascinates me greatly.

Mussolini was supported by the leftists in Parliament at first. With their help, he introduced strict censorship and altered the methods of election so that in 1925, he was able to assume dictatorial powers and dissolve all other political parties. Skillfully using his secret, but absolute control over the press, he gradually built up the legend of Il Duce, the title he bestowed upon himself; a man who never slept, was always right and would solve all the problems of politics and economics.

He introduced the Press Laws in 1925 which stated that all journalists must be registered Fascists. However, not all newspapers were taken into public ownership and Corriere della Sera sold on average 10 times as many copies as the leading Fascist newspaper 'Il Popolo D'Italia'. Nevertheless, Italy was soon a police state.

The assassination of the prominent Socialist, Giacomo Matteotti in 1924, began a prolonged political crisis in Italy, which did not end until the beginning of 1925 when Mussolini asserted his personal authority over both country and party to establish a personal dictatorship.

Mussolini's skill in propaganda was such that he had surprisingly little opposition to suppress. But then, he was Italian!

Would anyone care to debate further?

[QUOTE=Pace]Isn't the right arm ("Heil Hitler") salute known as the Roman satute it Italy?[/QUOTE]

It got me in to trouble as well and it is the reason I started this thread. The Monterotondo area is where Mussolini started his march on Rome. I get the feeling that the locals here think that he went into do a bit of shopping, take in a show and he will be back anytime (OK..he has been gone a long time, But if he took the wife....). You quite often see a car go past, full of young guys all with their hands up shouting for ice-cream. Being a bit on the greedy side I was joining in until it was pointed out that they were not shouting Dolce:o

I had also mentioned that I've seen the 2006 Musso calendar on sale in a store along with busts of the fella on an Autostrada petrol station.....it worried me.

I also belive that [i]his[/i] grand-daughter is now in politics.

[QUOTE=tuscanhills]I had also mentioned that I've seen the 2006 Musso calendar on sale in a store along with busts of the fella on an Autostrada petrol station.....it worried me.

I also belive that [i]his[/i] grand-daughter is now in politics.[/QUOTE]

I thought that this sort of thing was banned? At the Sunday market here there is a stand devoted to him, where you can get cups, plates, busts, etc.
I was speaking to a guy from a COMMUNE!! by Naples last year and he was telling us that Silvio was alright, but Mussolini used to be better. When I asked 'But didn't he kill a lot of people?' the answer was 'aah not so many and everything worked'.:confused:

I know a few dyed-in-the-wool fascists and something they all have in common is a deep need for structure, order, a sense of organisation. They like things neat & tidy - particularly people and behaviour. They like to know there's a guy at the front of the bus who knows the way.
But then I know a few unrepentant Moscovite communists who like they same things. Humans can be odd..............
Ciaran

At various times after 1922, Mussolini personally took over the ministries of the interior, of foreign affairs, of the colonies, of the corporations, of the army and the other armed services and of public works. Sometimes he held as many as seven departments simultaneously, as well as the premiership.

He would later form an institutionalised militia that carried official state support. In this way, he succeeded in keeping power in his own hands and preventing the emergence of any rival, but it was at the price of creating a regime that was overcentralized, inefficient, and certainly corrupt.

Most of his time was spent on propaganda, at home or abroad, and here his training as a journalist was invaluable. Press, radio, education, films; all were carefully supervised to manufacture the illusion that fascism was the doctrine of the 20th century, replacing liberalism and democracy.

As stated, calendars, wine labels and even dart boards bear his picture and it is, thankfully, a free choice as to which, if any, you would buy.

[quote=tuscanhills]I had also mentioned that I've seen the 2006 Musso calendar on sale in a store along with busts of the fella on an Autostrada petrol station.....it worried me.

I also belive that [I]his[/I] grand-daughter is now in politics.[/quote]

I saw calenders and photographs for sale at the antiques market in Ascoli Piceno. If you ever get to the village of Predappio in Romagna (Musollini was born here), you'll see a number of stores selling Mussolini memorabilia. Apparently this stuff is in big demand.

And there is a hotel high on a mountain top down in l'Abruzzo, which had some role in an attempted flight by Mussolini at the end of italy's war, I think helicopters and Germans were involved, which has become a bit of a pilgrimage site, with lots of memorabilia on sale.

Yep...the Campo Imperatore up in the Gran Sasso where Mussolini was held under house arrest.

Hitler sent in 12 gliders with commandos on board to rescue Mussolini, who eventually got out in a single-engine reconnaisance aircraft. The story is interesting in that because of the combined weight of Musollini and the pilot, take-off conditions were not the best and the aircraft struggled to get into the air, although it did eventually make it.

[QUOTE=ciaran]I know a few dyed-in-the-wool fascists and something they all have in common is a deep need for structure, order, a sense of organisation. They like things neat & tidy - particularly people and behaviour. They like to know there's a guy at the front of the bus who knows the way.
But then I know a few unrepentant Moscovite communists who like they same things. Humans can be odd..............
Ciaran[/QUOTE]

You took the words out of my mouth. We have Italian (and French) friends and acquaintances who vote Communist and Fascist and I'm sure both groups would describe their beliefs as being based on the above. Euro-Communists don't bother me in the slightest but I still find it bit of a surprise when people openly express clearly pro-fascist views. I've also spotted the Mussolini calendars on sale in a gas station. Came as a real shock. V

If you ask most sicilians they will say he did a lot of good for Sicily, clamped down on the mafia, built infrastructure, etc etc.

I do like to see a declared communist in a new mercedes, as we have in our village, not bad eh comrade

hehehe, read the Don Camillo books; they are wonderful & give a delightful insight into the communist mayor's mind & his strong (contradictory) friendship with the local priest don Camillo.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Tumblong; the common element to both Fascism and Communism seems to be that the rules of the ideology apply to 'other people', never to oneself.

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]wow really you can buy Musso calendars at the petrol station.Must buy one then I will be truly accepted by my Italian neighbours even more so when they see my camoflage clothing and huge array of weaponary, intened to blast every protected bird species off the face of the earth!

Great Idea

Ciao

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

Well, given that there's a thriving black market for Hitler 'relics' worldwide, it's quite shocking to hear of Musso calenders openly on sale! Apart from it being completely tasteless, he wasn't really a stunner eh?!! Wouldn't like to look at his old face every morning I wake up... :eek:

[LEFT][quote=Marc]I think you've hit the nail on the head there Tumblong; the common element to both Fascism and Communism seems to be that the rules of the ideology apply to 'other people', never to oneself.[/quote]

It's odd that this has reared it's head as there's a basic concept in political science that runs "all politics is on a spectrum (communism on the left, fascism on the right) that covers all shades of light and dark".

This has been challenged to the effect that this 'spectrum' is not a linear scale, but a horse-shoe whereby communism & fascism nearly meet & sometimes bond in the form of totalitariasm that really doesn't need an ideology, just a big boot.

........it's also interesting to recall that both Hitler & Stalin formed a non-agression pact in 1939 that whilst was a marriage of convenience, showed that two totalitarian regimes were more interested in self-preservation than the greater good.

...how different it may have been if Trotsky hadn't been bumped off by Stalin![/LEFT]

I agree with the concept as a type employed by political scientists, especially those in the area of comparative politics, to describe modern regimes in which the state regulates nearly every aspect of public and private behaviour, as totalitarianism.

Imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state and opposing political and cultural expression is, in my opinion, suppressed:
[QUOTE=tuscanhills][LEFT]"a basic concept in political science that runs "all politics is on a spectrum (communism on the left, fascism on the right) that covers all shades of light and dark"....how different it may have been if Trotsky hadn't been bumped off by Stalin![/LEFT][/QUOTE]
Taking their destiny into their own hands was the real issue between the ultra left and the Bolsheviks. The ultra left was of the opinion that there was no place for revolutionists in trade unions.

Totalitarian regimes can only maintain themselves in political power by means of secret police, propaganda, state controlled mass media, strict regulation and restriction of free discussion and criticism, the use of mass surveillance and widespread use of terror tactics.

Was it not Lenin who declared that there had developed a layer of a "strictly trade unionist, imperialistic orientated, arrogant, vain, sterile, egotistical, petty-bourgeois, bribed and demoralised aristocracy of labour". We all know, this level of corrupt gangster leadership, rules the trade union movement and lives on the back of all workers

“A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).

I look forward to further discussion.

[LEFT]I think you'll find that Lenin was discussing the "[i]em[/i]borguise[i]ment[/i]" of the masses & the creation of another stratum of society who were a anti-revolutionary & so against the communist ideals.

I'm also interested by Schlesinger's comment; it's based on the assumption that "communism = totalitarianism" & so is more a critique of contemporary communism than of the ideology of communism.

... he may have hit the nail on the head though as there's only really Cuba that's survived as a long-term communist state & one could argue that this is more down to Castro's personal charisma then an effective ideal. .....has Cuba crushed the human soul? Not sure?

I also recall (from somewhere....Kroptkin?) a quote that in the ideal society one day a man could be a wood-cutter, the next a factory worker & follow his (and her) own will, rather than be goverened by an oligarchy of business etc... Does this sentiment still run today? I reckon it does; the anti-Globalisation crew are sining this song..........

Best stop now as my brain hurts; I've not used this part of it for soooo many years!

D :D[/LEFT]

Marc,
An interesting observation. If being fascist/communist means wanting to control others not really yourself, does this mean that that 'liberals'(the political converse) are really interested in their own freedom and just pretend to be interested in everybody else being 'free'.
In the US, right-wing conservative republicans would tell you they are keen on 'small governement' leaving people 'free'....
Ciaran

.....interesting point ciaran; tyranny of the liberators......Bush, watta guy, eh?

What would we do without him :(

One problem is that whatever political system you wish to look at, they are always run by PEOPLE, people with their own views and their own agenda, the basic principles are warped to meet those agenda's, and, in the case of the "Leaders", there is usually a large wadge of the folding money type stuff, the ideology usually takes a back seat to amassing large piles of the stuff. Or, shoes...

Politics 101! Nice one George ;)

........this was why I stuck to the ideology side of the subject.

[QUOTE=GeorgeS].... in the case of the "Leaders", there is usually a large wadge of the folding money type stuff, the ideology usually takes a back seat to amassing large piles of the stuff. Or, shoes...[/QUOTE]

Ahhh, poor old Imelda... ;)

heheheh, Imelda was a whole new slant on the "jack-boot of tyrrany.."; more like a delightful kitten heel of totalitarianism?

The Italian form of communism sometimes seems to work quite well. In 1990 I was a volunteer worker for English fans at the world cup. In Cagliari (in Sardegna) it was all a bit of a struggle, money stolen by someone in a local organisation, a useless British consulate and an antagonistic local authority. Moving on to Bologna (at short notice, because it depended on where England came in their group) we found a very helpful and rapidly responsive local authority. I also found out that Bologna la rossa was also la grassa, and was sorry when I took the train to leave (past the memorial for the victims of the 1980s fascist bombings) when my holiday expired.

As for the rapid train journey across Italy, Switzerland and France and then the crawl from Dover to London Bridge - that's another subject entirely..

On the subject of trains it should be pointed out to his credit that Mussolini had a sense of humour: the story that he made the trains run on time is a myth; but he did joke about it, because he acknowledged that even _he_ couldn't manage that!