414 Could this be a warning for you?

I don't think it logically follows that what happens in Spain happens in Italy! The ex-pat community is very different and far bigger in Spain than in Italy, which has a relatively small number of resident foreigners, although it may sometimes not seem that way. Italy has a population of 58 million and only about 900,000 are foreigners.

You do hear stories of course of people being burgled, and even gas being used, but in my area at least (Umbria) this is still quite rare and I wouldn't say that foreigners are any more targeted than anyone else. There are holiday homes which get robbed of course, but that tends to be when the owners are not there and these are owned by Italians and non-Italians alike - no specific targeting of foreigners.

Anyone got comments from any other areas?

Less of the doom and gloom pleeeese!

The majority of us looking to relocate are trying to escape the horrors of life over here and a bettor life for our children and try not to think about what could and could not happen.

The fact the story only appeared in the Daily Mail should bring you some relief. If you believed (and worried about) everything you read in that rag you'd be permanently petrified - hoards of 'gypsies' swamping the country looting and pillaging (and building without planning permission), 'yobs' reeking all manner of havoc on the pensioners of West Sussex, killer infections wiping out the middle class as they have their hips replaced, school children killing each other, drugs, violence, benefit fraudsters, underage sex parties, killer dogs, killer toys, killer food dyes etc.

Go to Italy, and in the five-million-to-one chance you do indeed get gassed and robbed at least you will get your 15 minutes of fame in the Daily Mail, and you'll have a good dinner party story.

When in 2002 I traveled in Italia I carried an old Minolta HiMatic 7 on my shoulder. It is all shining metal and apparently looks expensive, maybe it is, I paid $95.00 30 years ago. In any event, a great number of times, locals warned me about displaying my camera so openly. They say where there is smoke there usually is fire. However, I am happy to report that in all of the three weeks we spent in Italia, we were not even pumped once, etc.

When I lived in Naples a few years back the parents of a friend of mine from the UK came to visit him. They managed to get themselves mugged outside the funicular station two days running in exactly the same place by a different person each time! Petty theft, bag snatching etc is unfortuntely very common in Italy - but people being gassed in their homes and waking up with a headache to find their worldly belongings gone is exceedingly rare (if it happens at all).
I remember reading a warning in a book once though - I think it might even have been in the Lonely Planet Guide to Italy - that stated that it had been known for criminal gangs to pump sleep-inducing gas through the ventilation system on a carriage of a sleeper train before robbing all of its inhabitants.
Anyone visiting Italy could always consider purchasing a gas-mask to wear at home and when travelling to be on the safe side.

- but people being gassed in their homes and waking up with a headache to find their worldly belongings gone is exceedingly rare (if it happens at all).

Unfortunately it does happen. We know of two families who have been victim to this type of crime. One an English family living in the north and another an Italian family living in central Italy. In both instances it seems cars rather than individuals were the target as they awoke with a headache to find their new BMWs had gone. Fortunately this is definitely the exception rather than the rule, but Italy as in every other country has its fair share of petty & professional criminals and organised crime. I still feel much safer living in Italy than I did in the UK and as with everywhere common sense must prevail rather than any panic reaction to an isolated incident.

Every person I know who has had their hose broken into here has been lax in their own vigilance. If people would understand that shutters are meant to be closed and locked every night, they wouldn't have as many problems. That and get an alarm.

Picking up on the point made by Rosemary, I would like to state, unequivocally, how concerned I am to note the number of times people log on to forum to ask whether Italy is a safe place to be (this is not the first: I recall a previous posting stating that “Italy is a crime ridden country, from people evading tax, to mafia outrages”).

Sometimes I have to ask myself whether this is due to romantic notions from having watched too many Godfather movies or whether it is a simple case of paranoia or panic reaction.

Without doubt, Italy has its fair share of crime and socially related problems. But what country doesn’t?

Just look at what has happened in the UK recently:

The murder of 16-year-old girl and the attempted murder of her 18-year-old friend.

Abigail Witchalls was attacked in a tranquil residential area of Surrey and is now paralysed as a result of being stabbed in the neck.

Crimes involving guns have gone up. Sheffield, I believe, is even called assassination city.

My message to anyone wanting to visit or to relocate to Italy is don’t be discouraged from doing so. Italy has a lot to offer, although there are pros and cons like anywhere else. I agree with you Anne2. Common sense must prevail!

"Crimes involving guns have gone up. Sheffield, I believe, is even called assassination city."

...Nottingham is called assassination city (probably in the Daily Mail). Sheffield is actually very nice and I for one have never been shot there.

I think,as a ex-pat/foreigner in Italy you are more likely to be a victim of crime perpetrated by a foreigner than by a native.I refer to the gangs of Eastern Europeans that have infiltrated into the 'system'

And people in the UK wonder what all the fuss is about,re immigration.It hasn't really started here in UK but judging by Italy's ongoing problems they would be wise to take note.

Thanks for putting me right. I couldn't remember which city it was. It wasn't the daily Mail (I don't read it)...it was a news report I saw on TV.

Roman Dave, your attitude to immigration is quite Roman (for want of a better word). You must feel right at home in Civitavecchia. Were you indoctrinated in Folkestone by the Rt. Hon. Michael Howard MP himself an East European illegal immigrant to the UK or were your views formed during your stays in Lazio?

Now, now, play nicely...

I think you'll find that he is Welsh, anyway.

I think you'll find Michael Howard is Romanian, but he was brought up about 2 miles from where I am now sitting in sunny Llanelli, Wales where his parents ran a successful clothes shop after they immigrated to the UK after or during WWII. He is an illegal immigrant because his grandfather (or father) lied on the paperwork when they entered the country as they would otherwise have been refused asylum. I find it kind of ironic that he played the immigration and anti-asylum card in his unsuccessful election campaign.

I didn't mean not to 'play nicely'. Sorry if I caused offence, but Italy's problems are 99% self-made, and all too easily blamed on (east european and north-african in particular) immigrants. Blaming national problems on minorities and immigrants is nothing new - if Michael Howard were not Jewish for example, he'd still be living happily in Transylvania rather than in sunny Folkestone.

Petty criminality and state level corruption are something that Italy and Italians do very well. Adding a few Albanians, Moroccans, Romanians etc to the mix has really not made that much difference except that they are more visible than the 'native' criminals and therefore easier to blame for the state's self-induced woes.

Quoted from the Daily Telegraph 13/02/2005:

Michael Howard was ridiculed by Labour MPs yesterday for admitting that his grandfather may have been an illegal immigrant.

The Conservative leader was subject to jibes about his background after admitting that his father, Bernard Hecht, falsified details about his parents when he applied for British citizenship in 1947.

The Tories hit back by claiming that the criticism was the latest example of Labour hitting below the belt in an increasingly personalised election campaign.

The row erupted after Mr Howard disclosed that his father, who left Romania in the 1930s and changed the family name to Howard, wrongly claimed that both of his parents had died in Romania.

In fact, the Tory leader's grandmother died in Auschwitz, but his grandfather was alive at the time and had been living in London since the 1930s. Mr Howard said: "I have speculated on the reason and I suppose one possibility is that my grandfather might have entered Britain unlawfully."

The Howard/Hecht apparently fled to Britain in 1939 and once settled in South Wales Michael was born in 1941...looks like he might be Welsh after all, but, as my grand-dad used to say " If a cat gives birth in a fish shop, they're still kittens"

Michael Howard was born in Wales. His father arrived in 1937, having bent the rules.

If a cat gives birth in a fish shop, they're still kittens......

Then I must be a Viking or similar. Am I allowed to rape and pillage as part of my ethnic identity?

Maybe a local gov't grant is looming..........

Paranoia about crime in Italy is common among British visitors, but the truth is far away from the fears expressed by those visitors. I've worked over the last 20 years from Como down to Vasto and I've never felt threatened nor had anything stolen. By contrast even in rural Surrey I have been robbed blind by English people.

Last winter a storm blew open the doors of our magazino where wewere storing all the farm equipment. The usual mix of tractor, brushcutters, generator, and much other framing and building equipment.

Our neighbours secured the doors and nothing went missing. In the UK I would have expected everything to "disappear", because that's what has happened to me in the past. At least in rural Italy, neighbours still look out for each other,know who is local and who is not and challenge strangers to state what their business is. Crime is accordingly low.

Ah yes, and of course most importantly one is most unlikely in Italy to be threatened by an aggressive drunk. I don't like visiting British cities after 5PM because the streets are full of people vomiting, fighting and picking fights with anyone walking past. This loutish behaviour is spreading to small towns and villages. However I feel safe and unthreatened wandering around Italian cities late into the night and in Bologna, being a nocturnal visitor to restaurants and bars is all part of the social scene. No anger, no aggression, lots of happy chattering people.

blimey Rosemary - even the title of your post was pure Daily Mail editorial, you have succumbed, i am afraid to its insiduous and alarmist spell - its quite possible that you need a thorough detox. Recommend you do this in rural Italy to rid any lingering paranoia/anxiety.........and please rest assured NO self respecting Italian burglar would use gas as its FAR too expensive....!

In response to Will - tomorrow evening I will indeed be in a rural part of Italy!!

I am going to chill out and have a wonderful time! Such is the case when I stand on home territory.

I shall also be vigilant!

Rosemary

A rather fascinating statistic! “99% of Italy’s problems are self-made” But what is this supposed to mean exactly? Where is the evidence to support the inference such a figure appears to make?

Of course Italy has problems. So too does the rest of the world. Crime, corruption and violence are global phenomena. Moreover, Italy, has unquestionably, had a colourful history to say the least. But this does not mean to say that a significant proportion of her social problems are self-made. Problems of this nature go much deeper than that.

Interestingly, a study of various world civilisations throughout the course of history would reveal that problems leading to social breakdowns and social disintegration are neither inevitable, nor are they the product of single factors. In any age of any society, the nature and symptoms of social disorder are multi-factorial.

On this basis I do not support and therefore reject the assertion made by neilncm as it is I believe, far too simplistic: it does not, and cannot provide us with a coherent picture of the dynamics of the complex social problems that are part and parcel of our every day lives. Equally, I would argue that the same line of reasoning applies to the assumption that eastern European and North African immigrants are to blame for Italy’s problems.

In any case, the argument seems to be drifting away from the main point of the debate that is: people should not succumb to panic reactions, which are often fuelled by prejudicial, romantic and stereotyped images of a country and its people.

[QUOTE=Charles Joseph]A rather fascinating statistic! “99% of Italy’s problems are self-made” But what is this supposed to mean exactly? Where is the evidence to support the inference such a figure appears to make?

Of course Italy has problems. So too does the rest of the world. Crime, corruption and violence are global phenomena. Moreover, Italy, has unquestionably, had a colourful history to say the least. But this does not mean to say that a significant proportion of her social problems are self-made. Problems of this nature go much deeper than that.

Interestingly, a study of various world civilisations throughout the course of history would reveal that problems leading to social breakdowns and social disintegration are neither inevitable, nor are they the product of single factors. In any age of any society, the nature and symptoms of social disorder are multi-factorial.

On this basis I do not support and therefore reject the assertion made by neilncm as it is I believe, far too simplistic: it does not, and cannot provide us with a coherent picture of the dynamics of the complex social problems that are part and parcel of our every day lives. Equally, I would argue that the same line of reasoning applies to the assumption that eastern European and North African immigrants are to blame for Italy’s problems.

In any case, the argument seems to be drifting away from the main point of the debate that is: people should not succumb to panic reactions, which are often fuelled by prejudicial, romantic and stereotyped images of a country and its people.[/QUOTE]

If we are ever in the same part of the world on the same day one year, I would love to have a cup of coffee with you.

Kneejerk reactions are common when bad news is being heard. It is always best to go into any situation with an open mind, take the usual precautions, and listen to the advice of locals.

We were warned about pickpocketing at outside the one funiculare in Naples - seems to be a common thing just around there (the one near Piazza Montesanto). We could have ignored the guy who worked through very poor English to tell us, and become a statistic, but we listened and hey, our entire stay in Naples was crime free.

The same thing goes for any country you choose to visit. Each is unique, all have problems, but if you are careful, and have a bit of commonsense, you can avoid most of the troubles you read of.

Once in a while fate will throw you a curve ball, but hey, that's what travel insurance is for...

[QUOTE=Charles Joseph]A rather fascinating statistic! “99% of Italy’s problems are self-made” But what is this supposed to mean exactly? Where is the evidence to support the inference such a figure appears to make?
On this basis I do not support and therefore reject the assertion made by neilncm as it is I believe, far too simplistic: it does not, and cannot provide us with a coherent picture of the dynamics of the complex social problems that are part and parcel of our every day lives. Equally, I would argue that the same line of reasoning applies to the assumption that eastern European and North African immigrants are to blame for Italy’s problems. [/QUOTE]

I agree that my 'statistic' is far too simplistic and cannot possibly be proven. Italy's main problems today stem from its recent poor government, poverty, internal and external migration of its people, unemployment, history of corruption, Italian mothers, geography, war, climate, and so on and so forth ad infinitum, with all factors influencing and being influenced by all the others. The sum of ALL these factors mixed up together makes Italy and its people what and who they are today.

Charles, you said "Interestingly, a study of various world civilisations throughout the course of history would reveal that problems leading to social breakdowns and social disintegration are neither inevitable, nor are they the product of single factors. In any age of any society, the nature and symptoms of social disorder are multi-factorial." - I couldn't agree more, which is why when you look at the bigger picture of Italy's criminality these 'gangs' of East Europeans are just one small factor (1% or less in my opinion - perhaps more) in the mix of the many historical and contemporary direct and indirect factors which have produced an Italy where your bag or shiny camera may be snatched from your shoulder, and where you can purchase smuggled cigarettes and fake perfumes in broad daylight outside Naples train station.

A few years ago the Economist had an article comparing two countries. One was an economic basket case with terrible politics. The other a stunning example to Europe of how to run a successful and profitable manufacturing economy. Of course at the end of the parallel columns one found out that both countries were Italy.

It's impossible to sum up Italy simplistically. It's neither a raging tiger of economy nor is it in the poor state that sevral try to portray it as. At least, unlike the UK, it has managed to conserve its manufacturing base and has wealth which is founded in real capital investment, not the UK's flim-flam service economy propped up by windfall oil.

Unfortunately this sort of thing goes on everywhere.

I read in the Times recently that two female students in the UK were rehearsing a dance routine in wheelchairs to demonstrate the vulnerability of disabled people when they were attacked by a couple of thieves.

Unfortunately for the thieves, the students got up and chased them off. This incident shows that no one nowhere is immune to the problem.

There is an interesting page (called Postcards) on the Lonely Planet guide web site where travellers post their stories. Some of the horror stories from trips to various countries around the globe make sobering reading, although in some cases they are highly amusing. The link is as follows if anyone cares to have a look:

[url]http://www.lonelyplanet.com/letters/[/url]

Europes largest "Traveller" camp is near my fathers house in Essex....and believe me it is no fun having those thieving beggars on your doorstep! My husband works in East/North London and everyday comes home with another tale of shooting/knifing/murder.... not just "simple" mugging! Which incidently does not make it into the papers as it is a daily occurence. I won't go into details for fear of being too "Daily Mail" but suffice to say unless you have experienced it you cannot comment. We live in what is currently a lovely area of Essex, but this is slowly changing hence our impending move to Northern Italy.

In uk we had heroin dealing going on openly within 30 metres of front door
Members of family assaulted and robbed.
This was inner city living.
We now live in le marche which I think is the lowest crime region of italy-it certainly feels that way
I think we were just unlucky in the past 2 years living in uk
WE tend to forget to lock our door at night but the number of dogs that line the very narrow road into our village will probably warn us of approaching bandits
Life here and I should immagine in other rural areas is just fantastic -the people in our gve us things they do not take things off us.
Don"t worry-be happy!!!!

I'd chip in and agree that Italy - like anywhere - has its problems, but they are of a different kind to the UK. Certainly not any 'worse', if that's the right term. I can only speak of my experience in Sardinia but it's a joy to go out in Cagliari, say, and not feel threatened and not be in an aggressive or 'drunken' night spot.

My own experience has always been very positive. Deaths of tourists ex-pats are so rare that you'd have to imagine it's all down to chance. A case of terribly bad luck. And besdies which, so many Brits seem to temorarily leave their brains behind when they travel or relocate and flout safety in the kinds of ways that would be unimaginable at home. I'd say to anyone about to travel to Italy (in the main to big cities and incidentally Naples has a dreadful reputaiton with Italians as 'thief-central'), just do it. Be cautious, sure, but more than that just be aware like you would at home.

In my own (well my wifes, but it feels like mine now!) part of central Sardinia (so called barbarian territory, where bandits were once common) crimes against tourists are a strict no-no and there are, er, 'consequences' for those that committ them. In fact, if you are going to steal it is generally from another Sardinian. In truth, Italy is so varied it just depends where you are.

And as for the Daily HateMail, well.....

Russ

[QUOTE=neilmcn]Roman Dave, your attitude to immigration is quite Roman (for want of a better word). You must feel right at home in Civitavecchia. Were you indoctrinated in Folkestone by the Rt. Hon. Michael Howard MP himself an East European illegal immigrant to the UK or were your views formed during your stays in Lazio?[/QUOTE]

In response to Neil's rather immature reply may I ask him if he is actually of Italian descent?

I am guessing not.

Oh and by the way I do not support MH in any of his views but there again I live in an area whereby I see scores of illegal immigrants climbing out of lorries coming into the UK,so maybe I ought to support him?

Roman Dave,

I am not sure why my Italian descent (or lack thereof) is relevant to this discussion.

I found what you originally wrote to be offensive and similar to a lot of the right-wing views to which I was often subjected in the times I have spent in Rome.

Unfortunately in generalising about Romans my comments were no better than yours for which I apologise to the many Romans who do not share your views. Also Michael Howard is not an East European illegal immigrant - he is the son of an East European illegal immigrant - so sorry Mr Howard.

Wow, I feel I have entered a Monty Python film!!!! Are these posts for real?

As an east Londoner who moved to the English countryside before moving to Le Marche, most of what I have read is surely just the age old city vs country debate.

You know how it goes - all the country dwellers say that the cities are dens of iniquity where you will be raped, robbed or murdered (or even all three!) as soon as you step outside of your door. All the city dwellers claim it's not like it was when they were kids when you could leave your front door open and how it's all the fault of the nasty immigrants.

Yes I feel safe in my village here but I did in my village in Essex where the crime statistics over the three years before I left were ZERO! I was born and brought up in East London and I felt and still feel safe there. It is all an attitude of mind. If you look like a mugging victim, guess what you'll be mugged.

The biggest threat to all our safety is the fear that rags like the Daily mail instill in people. Ignore them, walk tall, with confidence and don't wave your diamonds and shiny mobiles around in inner cities and you'll be fine.

And quite frankly, if you are really that concerned about how safe Italy is, how on earth would you cope with the policemen and their sub-machine guns and having to deal with the endless red tape without fainting or ringing the Daily Mail?

Wol - I totally agree, a large part of the perceived difference between safety in the UK and Italy is (in my opinion) definitely to do with the city v country debate.There are a number of areas in the UK I can think of where I would happily live and a number where I wouldn't even be paid to live. Likewise for Italy. I'm guessing that the majority of people that have holiday homes in Italy, are moving to Italy or enjoy coming here on holiday have a certain level of income and therefore are not going to choose to go to the inner city areas that will have similar levels of crime as the UK. Interestingly if you speak to a lot of Italians they have opinions of the UK that we have of Italy ie it's safer, better organised, more honest and in general more peaceful. (okay I don't think we think Italy is better organised!)
Perceptions of levels of crime can be down to a number of different factors not just the actual level of crime - ie rape is now more readily reported to police resulting in statistically higher levels of rape than say 20 years ago - this does not necessarily mean that more rapes have been committed just that there are more reported.
There is also the factor of media reporting and sensationalism - could it be that we have a more sensationalist media in the UK and therefore the perception of higher crime? Likewise we may have a better reporting system for crime thus resulting in the appearance of more crime. How many English speakers actually read Italian papers as regularly here as they would at home? Try not reading any papers or watching the news for a couple of weeks in the UK and you'll start to feel a lot safer there too!
Excessive alcohol consumption is certainly a much bigger problem in the UK but it's definitely catching up in Italy - there have been recent news reports about binge drinking amongst youths and I recently saw an advert in a magazine aimed at young women about the dangers of binge drinking.
I feel as safe living in the countryside in Italy as I did in a city in the UK. I've had a bag stolen from my car in the countryside here and a radio from my car in the UK!
:(

I reckon Wol and Nicola are spot on. All these perceptions are very subjective and chance plays a big part. The countryside always feels so peaceful but, for young people seeking excitement, it can also seem boring. Drug use can occur anywhere and I have heard of someone near us in Lunigiana who died from an overdose last year. If drugs are there, then there is always the possibility of crime, although I personally haven’t come across any.

We visited my sister in her haven of peace in the backs woods of Canada last year She told us a scary story about a couple she knew, a retired school teacher and his wife, who were murdered in their country house, seemingly miles from anywhere in idyllic countryside, by druggies with guns. That didn’t make me feel paranoid, but it did make me think through an escape route in our house, if I ever needed one.

BTW, we live in "Kray territory" in London within a mile or so of significant druggie crime which regularly features in the newspapers and yet, apart from taking the normal precautions I would take in any big city, I don't feel particularly threatened here. Statistically, it’s bound to be much more dangerous than the Italian countryside, though.

[QUOTE=Rosemary]In the Daily Mail today ( May 14th)I read of an elderly ex- patriate having been killed yesterday at his villa in S.E. Spain whilst he and his wife sipped soft drinks by the pool.

The article went on to say that " Dozens of foreign residents have been gassed in their sleep,coming round to discover their homes ransacked and their valuables missing."

Therefore if this is true for Spain - how many have found this a reality in Italy?

Rosemary[/QUOTE]
hi, I am an Italian and watch the Italian TV daily. There are plenty of people who enter houses and steal anything from food to electronics, they are usually albanians or moroccans but also locals. Best thing is to have a serious burglar alarm and do not show off your plasma tv!

[QUOTE=franz sidney]hi, I am an Italian and watch the Italian TV daily. There are plenty of people who enter houses and steal anything from food to electronics, they are usually albanians or moroccans but also locals. Best thing is to have a serious burglar alarm and do not show off your plasma tv![/QUOTE]

Shame on you Franz thats really racist! Bizarrely, you do actually acknowledge the problems come from a broad section of the community so why then bring race into it at all?!

[QUOTE=will]Shame on you Franz thats really racist! Bizarrely, you do actually acknowledge the problems come from a broad section of the community so why then bring race into it at all?![/QUOTE]

Sadly Franz was just stating the truth. There is a problem along the Adriatic coast with Albanian economic immigrants and they are responsible for a crime wave in previously untroubled areas. The major new thing that they have brought to the area is squatting. My architect is currently struggling to evict three Albanian families occupying his mother's home.

The political situation in Albania has left people with strange ideas about property, largely they think that they can move in and take over anything they see as "unused" which includes holiday homes and even houses where someone has gone on holiday for a few days.

It's not racist BTW to indicate that Albanians are involved (heavily) in criminal activity in Italy, Albanians are (surprise, surprise) Caucasians just like the rest of Europe. Same race as us.

Sorry lotaresco but the lawyer in me has to disagree. Racism isn't just about skin colour

If it is proven that the culprits are Albanians or Moroccans, why is this considered to be racist? Surely stating facts cannot be racist?

[QUOTE=annec]Sorry lotaresco but the lawyer in me has to disagree. Racism isn't just about skin colour[/QUOTE]

I didn't say anything about skin colour, and you're going to have to explain to me in what way an Albanian is a different "race" to an Italian. Or indeed in what way the observation that Albanian illegals in Italy are heavily involved in crime is prejudiced, inaccurate, wrong, xenophobic or what have you.

In this instance, "racism" is being waved about as a PC form of insult and the accusation has and had no place here.

BTW, are you an Italian lawyer? Because I suspect that your view on what is considered racist (by some people) in the UK don't have a lot of validity in Italy. My view of racism is that any form of prejudice is to be abhored, but that the PC establishment in Britain use "racism" as a handy insult that they feel can be excused because all racists are horrible people. i.e. Those who use the term without thought are as guilty of prejudice as the people they complain about.

Racial discrimination is governed by European law, by which both the UK and Italy are bound

blimey lotaresco.... this is pity, Im a bit mystified why you have chosen to make a defence of this, the way Franz blamed Albanians and Moroccans and oh yes "locals" for burglaries is clearly racist, at least by the common use of the word, irrespective of the fact we are all caucasion, it is tarring a whole nation with the same brush and it isnt all Albanians or all Morrocans is it? While almost as an aside he acknowledges "locals"/Italians burgle as well. Its way too sweeping and er....racist.
Its all too easy especially on a forum like this to start talking assertively and "knowledgably" about which nationalitys are doing what, but in the end with matters this sensitive who are you or I to start determining what is the truth of the matter....?

Sorry, last post veered off into legal pomposity - professional hazard I'm afraid.

My personal definition of racism is any description of individuals by way of lazy stereotyping. Examples, Italians are mafiosi; Irish are stupid; Albanians are criminals; Germans hog the deckchairs. There are degrees of harm caused, depending on the relative positions of the individuals concerned. I agree its possible to get too precious about it, but equally its too glib just to pretend otherwise.

[QUOTE=will]blimey lotaresco.... this is pity, Im a bit mystified why you have chosen to make a defence of this, the way Franz blamed Albanians and Moroccans and oh yes "locals" for burglaries is clearly racist, at least by the common use of the word, irrespective of the fact we are all caucasion, it is tarring a whole nation with the same brush and it isnt all Albanians or all Morrocans is it? While almost as an aside he acknowledges "locals"/Italians burgle as well. Its way too sweeping and er....racist.
Its all too easy especially on a forum like this to start talking assertively and "knowledgably" about which nationalitys are doing what, but in the end with matters this sensitive who are you or I to start determining what is the truth of the matter....?[/QUOTE]

But aren't you being "racist" for attacking an Italian over how he expresses himself?

Franz didn't state or even hint that all crime is caused by Albanians and Moroccans he did report what's sadly true that Albanians and Moroccans in Italy are implicated in crime, convicted for those crimes and implied, correctly that the level of crmes involving individuals from those countries is higher than the proportion among the native Italian population.

He didn't speculate about cause, there's no implication that there's a national tendency to crime in either country. But one can't escape the fact that these economic migrants tend to get involved in crime to a greater extent than the local population. It's not racist to point this out any more than it is racist to point out that the majority of domestic and alcohol-fuelled violence in the UK is caused by white males, or that Italy has a serious problem with football violence.

Once could speculate about causes, of these tendencies but then IMO it would be possible to slip easily into racist comment. Which Franz avoided.

I'm sorry but your "racist" comment to me is lazy stereotyping.

"But aren't you being "racist" for attacking an Italian over how he expresses himself?"

oh dear, now I know im on to a loser!

I think we've taken this discussion as far as it can go don't you?

As this is a dicsussion forum I don't want to prevent people from expressing opinions on these issues (after all its "educational" to read about different preceptions).

Just three quick points:

1. The opinions on this thread are those of the discussants and not of any member of Italy Magazine.

2. There are simply not enough Albanians, Moroccans, or any other "...ans" to account for the majority of crime in Italy

3. Please avoid stating that any nationality carries any trait (good or bad) or has "funny ideas about property" - a. its simply never true b. its unpolite

Thanks

I tried to ignore this, and since I'm a moderator for a usenet newsgroup, I'm not usually inclined to enter into dispute with a moderator. But in this instance I think some of the points made by Ronald require a response.
[QUOTE=ronald]
1. The opinions on this thread are those of the discussants and not of any member of Italy Magazine.
[/QUOTE]
This was ever the case I believe, although your statement wouldn't save the publishers of Italy magazine from a libel case, nor I suspect from accusations of posting material likely to cause racial hatred if that is what is bothering you. If you feel that the comment has gone beyond what you can publish, then I suspect that you must remove that material now that you are aware of it. One of the lawyers could no doubt express an opinion on this.
[QUOTE]
2. There are simply not enough Albanians, Moroccans, or any other "...ans" to account for the majority of crime in Italy
[/QUOTE]
As I said previously, I don't think any individual has accused any group of people of commiting the majority of crime in Italy.
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3. Please avoid stating that any nationality carries any trait (good or bad) or has "funny ideas about property" - a. its simply never true b. its unpolite
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That last is a gross misrepresetation of a statement that I made in this thread, and I resent it. My statement was:
[I]The political situation in Albania has left people with strange ideas about property[/I]

a. The word "funny" was not used at all, the statement was true, because the Albanians have been raised and educated in a communist state which holds property in common, and permits citizens to take over property they see as underused or disused. This state of affairs does not pertain in Italy, and what one side sees as legal and efficient use of empty buildings, the other side sees as illegal occupation. This is causing friction between Albanian immigrants and Italian citizens.

b. It's not unpolite to discuss politics, although it can become so if individuals distort the material that they are holding up as an example by misquoting it.

Finally I don't think it's ever wise for a moderator to attempt to end a controversial argument by taking part in it and by misrepresenting the views of people involved in the discussion. Far better to simply state that the thread has gone beyond what the publishers of Italy magazine consider wise to publish and close the thread.

what a sad little ....or rather long posting..... hopefully those of you with views that can define people by birthplace as being somehow different to you or anybody else will continue to carry on living far away from me..... the silly niggling comments on what is correct nd boy do i hate stupid abreviations...

some might say if i used them i might save on spelling mistakes...is my thought a form of prejudice against all those too clever too smart in the know type persons who use these strange capitals...

as for crime.... crime is crime who ever or where ever... here in italy to put it simply and without prjudice you will feel safer... a perception maybe... but one that will make all of you that move here feel better.....

anyone fitting an alarm here might well get laughed at.... we have a ferocious 90 year old neighbour next door who hears and sees everything and god help any criminal that turned up to do their business.....

... i often will make impationed postings here on what i call criminal activity and have been told to go home....sorry to say to those that have this attitude this is my home.... but god save me from taking myself too seriously... even when i argue with charles its mainly tounge in cheek...

ronalds post seems to me to be trying to get people a bit back on track.... explains things clearly and is hardly contentious.....

if you like i had to read all the pontifical ramblings which i found offensive...but when you are faced with pious beliefs you realise that they are as fixed and as intransigent that some of the people posting on this subject seem to be ... religion and race.... when faced with the level of stupidity and ignorance portraid by those with strong beliefs on this subject best to give up..... they love to reply and air their views....

luckily ... italy is not perfect... but here in abruzzo... which sorry to say to the person from the marche i would claim to have the lowest crime rate.... we have many neighbours who are not of italian origin... they live here and hel;p here and every one gets on..... eutopia no... there are always a few stupid people..... say the black man who comes up on the bus once a week to try and sell table cloths..... he gets treated much as any sales person... but people do stare because he is unusual... others... because they spent time as migrant workers away from home... and italy had a lot of these understand the fears and prejudices and even if they dont buy will invite them in for a snack or drink.....

remember not long ago in france and belgium bar signs read ...no dogs.. no blacks and no italians.....

england had its own version of this stupidity...

in italy i find a certain sympathy amongst most to people less fortunate... a sadness almost that they have had to leave their homes to find work....

a rambling posting... as usual.... but maybe i might be allowed to have the last word on a posting which should halt here.....

[QUOTE=adriatica]a rambling posting... as usual.... but maybe i might be allowed to have the last word on a posting which should halt here.....[/QUOTE]

Too rambling for me, I couldn't work out what you were trying to say. I was, indeed still am, perturbed that so many Brits could express in this thread the view that Italy is some sort of hotbed of crime and throughout that prejudiced view of Italy and Italians there was no real backlash against the lazy, stereotypical thinking involved. However, one Italian posts to the thread and he's instantly attacked as "racist".

I'll make a sweeping generalisation about a nation, the British are weird.