8544 A stick not required

Pilchard, I too am an avid veg grower in the UK but unlike you we are going to spend our winters in Italy and the summers here.I'm wondering what I can grow food wise in the winter. We have lemons, oranges so no frost. We would be there from late september to end of March. What would be ready to pick before we leave? Could I conceivably take any brassica plants with me? Leek plants. Globe artichokes? Asparagus? Winter salads maybe? We have a big van. I'll have spuds and onions from here but havent yet figured out how to transport the raspberries. Have to start bottling again I suppose. Love to hear from you. Also can you recommend an Italian gardening magazine. I need to be able to garden in Italian.
Happy growing
Joanna

You will find Italian garden magazines a bit different from UK ones , sometimes they can be boringly basic but there are detailed articles about plants you just would not grow in Blighty and there is frequently arcane advice as to what phase of the moon is most propitious for planting what plant. As to what to grow - fruit trees and bushes are brilliant - good yields, high sugar levels - only downside drought can be a problem in some summers. A quality magazine is GARDENIA available at most newsagent stalls.

Don't knock the lunar gardening! Everyone round here is convinced that it's necessary, and it also forces you into rest when the luna is cattiva...

As for Joanna's question: I planted broccoli and cauli in autumn and the broccoli should be ready in the next few weeks. Not sure what happened to the cauli - lots of leaves but no veg.

The peas and fava beans might also be ready by then (I planted from seed in September) though this is probably wishful thinking. Your leeks should be good, and garlic / shallots too.

My raspberry seems to have died - planted out in Sept. Any clues as to why? It's the first year I've tried it here.

Have fun - and buy yourself a lunar gardening calendar!

[quote=joannaH;81601] Also can you recommend an Italian gardening magazine. I need to be able to garden in Italian.
Happy growing
Joanna[/quote]

Have a look at 'Case in Fiore' readily available from an edicola. Despite the title it does cover vegetables and also regional differences. We have found the articles covering traditional Italian type veg very useful - not many English mags cover cardo, carciofi, olives etc and also the tips re growing veg in an Italian climate. There are also the inevitable lunare pages!

This is the one I use... [URL="http://www.giardinaggio.it/"][B]>GIARDINAGGIO<[/B][/URL]
but all in Italian. It is excellent in all areas - fruit, veg, flowers, bugs, house plants - you name it... :yes:

Never expected to get such a crop of interesting responses from which was really only 10 mins of whimsy.
Don't bother asking me for any advice, as there seems to be here people with a far greater knowledge than me. Maybe we could turn this thread into an IT Mag gardener’s question time.
Why bring English seed or plants over when there's bound to be good quality seed readily available here? And by the way it costs next to nothing for really BIG packets of seeds. We have a weekly market in our village, and there will also be one near you, where all the locals go to buy their young plants and seedlings through the various seasons. Not expensive. We use what they have available as a guide to what to plant at different times.
Can understand bringing over favourite varieties or things you can't find here. Would love to be able to grow some scotch kale, the tall tender tight curled variety. We bought some young plants from a nursery near Port Appin near west coast of Scotland and planted them in Yorkshire where they grew to 5ft giants with the most delicious, tender leaves that cropped for months, suspect they would be a waste of time here but would love to give it a go. Remember you need seeds and plants with a degree of drought tolerance, not a thing we have to worry about in the U.K. We know of people who brought out gooseberry bushes and apple trees and they all died. Possibly lack of nurture.
Right here is a list of stuff we put in Sept/October... sprouts, cabbages (these were) Cavalo Nero, red cabbage, Savoy, broccoletti (yum), chicory, fennel, broccoli, leeks, beetroot, carrots, mixed winter salads (yum), bietola, garlic and onions gone in a month ago, celery.... I also am growing coriander over winters nicely. Our veg patch is on a fairly exposed hill and we do get a bit of wind. Our stuff is not all growing as well as we would like, due to us putting nothing on the soil...still growing though. Our mate Domenico who keeps cattle will bring up a trailer load of muck for us when the weather breaks (can't wait).
It's our very first year here and I have been very happy with the yields considering the land is fairly exhausted from constant intensive ploughing and cereal cropping...but last summer had to bottle and pickle loads of stuff (didn’t have a freezer) as we had no electric then on our hill. We do now and this summer I will freeze loads.
Hope this is helpful...but repeat am no Percy Thrower! Just a Sprat in wellies.
Sprat

[quote=pilchard;81621]We know of people who brought out gooseberry bushes and apple trees and they all died. Possibly lack of nurture.[/quote]
I suspect so.

There are several apple trees that must be more than 50 years old at my place (550m slm), so it's clearly not impossible to grow them here. However, I'm sure you can't get away with what you're able to do in most parts of the UK: plonk the tree in a hole and let it get on with it. I'm certain that new trees - particularly bare rooted ones - are going to need regular watering during the Italian summer until they get their roots down into the levels of clay that retain moisture.

At least I hope this is how it works, given that we've just planted a total of 45 trees bought from UK nurseries! And, yes, we did have a good look at what was available locally, but I'm afraid that while we like Granny Smith, Fuji and (at a push) Golden Delicious apples, there are much more interesting varieties available.

And of course most Italians have no idea what cider is, nevermind knowing that there are certain varieties of apples which one should use in making it! :nah:

I did find it interesting how little information is supplied on tree labels here. In Britain, it's standard practice for fruit tree nurseries to offer apple varieties on a range of rootstocks and to explain what effect that will have on qualities like ultimate size, speed of cropping, resistance to drought, and so on. Here, the label states the variety and that's it. The trees are clearly grafted onto rootstocks, but there's no indication of what it might be.

But perhaps there are serious fruit tree nurseries around and we just haven't managed to find them.

Al

Percy Thrower!, thats a name from the past. He used to be a friend of my Aunt Mary, and gave her lots of vegetables, well thats how she told it. As a child I used to watch his programmes on TV (in black and white) and for some strange reason found them fascinating, must have been an odd child.
A

[quote=AllanMason;81626]I suspect so.

There are several apple trees that must be more than 50 years old at my place (550m slm), so it's clearly not impossible to grow them here. However, I'm sure you can't get away with what you're able to do in most parts of the UK: plonk the tree in a hole and let it get on with it. I'm certain that new trees - particularly bare rooted ones - are going to need regular watering during the Italian summer until they get their roots down into the levels of clay that retain moisture.

At least I hope this is how it works, given that we've just planted a total of 45 trees bought from UK nurseries! And, yes, we did have a good look at what was available locally, but I'm afraid that while we like Granny Smith, Fuji and (at a push) Golden Delicious apples, there are much more interesting varieties available.

And of course most Italians have no idea what cider is, nevermind knowing that there are certain varieties of apples which one should use in making it! :nah:

I did find it interesting how little information is supplied on tree labels here. In Britain, it's standard practice for fruit tree nurseries to offer apple varieties on a range of rootstocks and to explain what effect that will have on qualities like ultimate size, speed of cropping, resistance to drought, and so on. Here, the label states the variety and that's it. The trees are clearly grafted onto rootstocks, but there's no indication of what it might be.

But perhaps there are serious fruit tree nurseries around and we just haven't managed to find them.

Al[/quote]

Alan, you have instantly become my fruit tree expert! What trees did you plant? Any really classic English varieties, Pilchards penchant is for a nice, floral flavoured Russet, myself I'm a lover of cox's orange pippin, but I just Lerrrve Damsons and Victoria plums, of course I go into raptures over gooseburies and Rhubarb, (being a northern lass) Oh god don't get me started.....Things I miss about the U.K is our fruits and Cheeses....
Just come back from a nearby market where the garlic and onion plants were winking at me..so we bought some and there going in after lunch.
Pilchard now sprawled on bed looking through all our gardening books and glazing over at the prospects of veg to come..
Al, How did you get all those fruit trees here from the U.K?
[B]WARNING[/B] Please, please do not go off thread into things you miss from the U.K...This is too much of an interesting thread...Start yer own...
Sprat

[quote]...."And of course most Italians have no idea what cider is, nevermind knowing that there are certain varieties of apples which one should use in making it!" [/quote]

Oh dear - don't say that in the Valtellina whatever you do Alan :wideeyed: They would be most displeased. :winki:

This valley doesn't just produce some very nice grapes and wines, but is famous for it's apple trees which are trained to grow like vines on terraces on the northern slopes up to maybe 1000m asl. Most of this long valley is cultivated like this with apples and grapes.
[IMG]http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/life/2004/07/10/images/2004071000140301.jpg[/IMG]
And in many places you can buy bottle of 'apple juice' and in some you [I]can[/I] even find 'sidro' (cider) too.

Our local vivaio sells gooseberry bushes, and - wait for it - blackcurrant bushes! I nearly fell over when I saw them. Hoping that they will produce this year. Our neighbour has an apple tree, though couldn't tell you what the variety is. Smallish fruit, quite bitter. I'm hoping that the climate here will also be good for growing my favourite English fruit - worth a try, anyway.

[quote=English teacher;81642]Our local vivaio sells gooseberry bushes, and - wait for it - blackcurrant bushes! I nearly fell over when I saw them. Hoping that they will produce this year. Our neighbour has an apple tree, though couldn't tell you what the variety is. Smallish fruit, quite bitter. I'm hoping that the climate here will also be good for growing my favourite English fruit - worth a try, anyway.[/quote]

Where are you English Teacher that you can get goosegog and blackcurrant bushes? Anyone found tuskie crowns yet?
Sprat

The thing about English apples is that they are 'designed' to grow in different regions.In Cornwall we have a [I]Queenie[/I] and a [I]Pigs nose [/I]which tolerate the cold wet summers more than a Cox or a Russet.I would think that most Abruzzo areas would be unsuitable for these apples but if you visit the botanical gardens above Caramanico then you should be able to find out what Abruzzese varieties can be bought locally.

There is a booklet that the park Authotrities produce on old veg and fruit varieties.You may need to write to them to get hold of a copy.

On the subject of trees I bought a handful of elm seeds back from Abruzzo in sept,put them in a plastic bag of compost in the fridge for 6 months and took them out and I9 now have 6 little seedlings!!I plan to grow these Elms here and plant them out in Abruzzo once they are large enough!

Thank you Manopello..more nuggets of info.
Regards Sprat & Pilch

Just a word re the raspberries failing. If they started well and then became weedy with small curly leaves then I bet your boots then the problem is a virus spread by aphids, sorry, incurable best to burn. Climate might not help - best rasps are grown and propagated in Scotland!

On the subject of apple trees, has anyone come across a Bramley or any other cooking apple tree.

Stribs

Don't know if you've seen this thread?? [url]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/gardening-agriculture/8477-where-find-traditional-varieties.html[/url]

Thanks Elliven. There were plenty of leaves to start with, then they just curled up and died.

Sprat: the vivaio is just outside San Severino (Le Marche), on the road to Macerata (on the right hand side).

[quote=pilchard;81629]Alan, you have instantly become my fruit tree expert![/quote]
Heaven forbid anyone should ever consider me an expert on [I]anything[/I].
[quote=pilchard;81629]What trees did you plant? Any really classic English varieties, Pilchards penchant is for a nice, floral flavoured Russet, myself I'm a lover of cox's orange pippin...[/quote]
There are supposedly more than 7,000 apple varieties being cultivated around the world, so I suppose the odds were against our fledging orchard containing your favourite apples. And it doesn’t.

Some of the trees we ordered are well-known, but we also got some quite obscure varieties:

Bramley Seedling, Dabinett, Michelin, Tom Putt, Bramley, Crimson King, Fiesta, Grenadier, Howgate Wonder, James Grieve, Lanes Prince Albert, Monarch, Sidney Strake, Ashmeads Kernel, Katy, John Downie and Dr Harvey. We also bought a container raised Granny Smith (for the absurd sum of €5.40 – compare to UK prices of £12 to £14 for a bare-root tree) at our local supermarket.

As Becky has said, apple varieties are usually the result of growers and breeders selecting trees that do well under certain conditions, so our orchard is largely a "suck it and see" exercise. It's very helpful for UK nurseries to say what varieties and which rootstocks do well in particular soil types and situations in various parts of the UK. And it would be logical to assume that a variety that does well in, for example, the West Country is not very likely to cope well if planted next to a palm tree on the coast in Calabria. However, I don't think it necessarily follows that the tree wouldn’t do well with [I]our[/I] orchard site which, although it has a central Italian climate, is at an elevation of 550 metres (1,800 feet) and on a gentle North-facing slope.

So we’ll see.

We also bought cherries (varieties Merton Glory, Stella) even though there are several huge old cherry trees here already, pears (Conference, Robin), Apricots (Gold Cott, Moorpark), Nectarines (Lord Napier, Fantasia, Early Gem), Peaches (Dixired, Peregrine, Redwing, Violet Hative), a Quince (Siberian Gold), an Almond (Ingrid) and Kiwi vines (Issai, Atlas, Hayward).

I think it's likely we'll only get fruit off some of those (peaches, nectarines, apricots and almonds) in some years, but we should get at least a good display of blossom in most years.

[quote=pilchard;81629]Al, How did you get all those fruit trees here from the U.K? [/quote]
They were shipped here directly by the UK nurseries and it’s interesting how much that cost varied. The biggest order in terms of number of bare-rooted trees (19) was with the [url=http://www.agroforestry.co.uk]Agroforestry Research Trust[/url]. They sent the parcel via FedEx Next Day at a cost of £59. (In fact, it was dispatched last Friday and arrived on Wednesday.) [url=http://www.ornamental-trees.co.uk]Ornamental Fruit Trees Nursery,[/url] charged £98 to send 10 trees. [url=http://www.readsnursery.co.uk]Reads Nursery[/url] charged £44 for 12 bare-rooted trees, and 7 potted plants (Kiwis and Jasmine).

In terms of packing and general service, Reads Nursery was not great: they stuck the plants in a flimsy box that very predictably split open at some point during the journey. Some of the plant pots were damaged, but somehow everything that was supposed to be in the box was inside when it arrived. Ornamental Trees packed things very well and they called me twice to check if the plants had arrived. The Agroforestry people packed things well, but it took them almost three months to actually ship the goods.

Al

Looks like I need to get over to Liguria in September to stock up on veg plants. It's a toss-up between staying in UK to get the last of the harvest or getting out there earlier to get the winter veg going. Depends on what the weather is like at the time. I just can't BUY all our veg, it's the freshness that you don't get. Talk about trying to have my cake and eat it!
Joanna

You'll find plants, seeds, little nurseries everywhere. Most things you will want can be found somewhere. All sorts of surprising and exotic things in the nurseries down our end. Look out for anywhere that is a consorzio agrario - things are often cheaper there.

Although our neighbouring farmer freind Domenico advises that winter is still here & we should sow no seed & plant nothing out, we have noticed enough orto activity to suggest that not all the locals would agree with him. Have seen onion plants being put in & broad beans are sprouting up everywhere but I suppose these are pretty frost hardy. All our gardening books are based on a UK climate &, being our first year here in Abbruzzo, with clay soil at 350 metres, we are undecided as to what seed to put in. As to what to plant, well a good enough guide should be whatever the plant stalls in the local markets are selling. Am just about to knock up a bubble wrap covered cold frame so that we can get a few things started & would welcome advice from any experienced old hands as to what seed to start off in it & what seed to plant outside.
Pilch

My attempts to grow some salad stuffs in Umbria at 630mts failed as deer etc. defeted me. Long story...But I read that The Self Sufficient Gardener by John Seymour (now a collectors item) has been translated into Italian and is a bible for many Italians wanting to grow vegetables but are not Contadini by birth and like the rest of us must live and learn.

Hi P & S
We planted peas & broad beans at the end of the year, they are about 200mm tall, garlic we planted just after christmas, about 100mm tall.
I'm about to dig and plant onion sets, was told to do it in Feb.
I'm told that the phases of the moon are important, so I tend to stick with the right time of the moon.
The Pugliauncovered website has a good gardening calender complete with moon phases, not sure if they've updated it for this season.
Good luck

Stribs

thanks Stribs very useful
Sprat