10332 Drowned Roma girls. The story continues...

I didn't see this story covered in The Guardian.

[url=http://www.corriere.it/cronache/08_agosto_23/olandese_violentata_roma_5da46fdc-7102-11dd-940b-00144f02aabc.shtml]Turista olandese violentata, fermati due pastori di nazionalità romena - Corriere della Sera[/url]

I haven't seen any stories in the British press, but it was reported by the American and Spanish press.... at least I am aware of those two....

[quote=Charles Phillips;96011]I didn't see this story covered in The Guardian.

[url=http://www.corriere.it/cronache/08_agosto_23/olandese_violentata_roma_5da46fdc-7102-11dd-940b-00144f02aabc.shtml]Turista olandese violentata, fermati due pastori di nazionalità romena - Corriere della Sera[/url][/quote]

What's the connection?

It looks as if you missed the original thread on the tragic drowning of the girls:
[url]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/general-chat-about-italy/10027-awful-picture-italy.html[/url]
and how we came into the realisation that news were manipulated by the press.
It looks as if they are further exploiting that terrible event. On the other hand, they seem to forget similarly tragic events that currently take place. Who decides what is going to be published... or not...?

Noble I dont understand why Charles added that?

Anyway I do share your concerns about this aspect of italy.I have tried to read as much as I can on Italian history ever since we bought a house there .

It appears to me that Italians still only operate on a fuedal / tribal basis having alligences to their families and local comunity rather than to society as a whole.This reminds me of what I found in Ghana rather than of a European country and seems to have its roots in the history of Italy which differs profoundly from the history of other european countries.

Silvio Berlusconi is cynically exploiting this situation to gain votes but at what cost not just to the Romas but to Italy as a whole?:no:

[quote=Gala Placidia;96046]It looks as if you missed the original thread on the tragic drowning of the girls:
[url]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/general-chat-about-italy/10027-awful-picture-italy.html[/url]
and how we came into the realisation that news were manipulated by the press.
It looks as if they are further exploiting that terrible event. On the other hand, they seem to forget similarly tragic events that currently take place. Who decides what is going to be published... or not...?[/quote]

Editors!

And Editors are working to keep up their circulation figures and keep the shareholders happy. They will print whatever they think will sell papers.

The ‘general public’ love any story which makes them feel superior, so to be able to ‘tut tut’ about Italy’s treatment of the Roma eases the conscience of those who protest about Gipsy camps in their leafy village or who support the man who shot a 16 year old burglar in the back.

It even happens on this forum, just look at the thread about children’s behaviour, where almost all posters say how well behaved their children are in comparison to others.

The most terrible fact is that the story is not true and has been distorted and manipulated to feed the public ‘what it wants to read’.

We may all feel that it is not what [B]we[/B] want to read, in the same way we say we never asked for tinned peas to be coloured a lurid green, but we still read it and we don’t buy grey peas!:no:

The reason I aded that (despite the fact that the atrocities perpetrated on the Dutch woman were by Romanian nationals - dunno if they were Rroms) was because to some extent, in my mind, it answers the pleading whinge in the Guardan 'Why do the Italians hate us'.

I could have linked to a very similar story where some German tourists, younger, and less badly beaten up, were attacked by three Italian youths (now arrested and incarcerated). One of the youths was apparently of an important camorra family in Naples.

But that story wouldn't have adressed the presumed 'Italians as racist and it's all because of Berlusconi' theme which is driving the UK press coverage.

That was my first thought- "he's confusing Romanians and Roma". Same as Slovenians and Slovakians- all those bloody foreign names sound the same.

Yup I keep thinking of you as Norma!!! lol

A terrible affliction - all these weird names.

[quote=juliancoll;96069]A terrible affliction - all these weird names.[/quote]
Foreigners, innit Jules...

[quote=Nardini;96072]Foreigners, innit Jules...[/quote]

"Foreigners" wasn't what was on my mind Nardini. :smile:

I wonder what would be the reaction in England if 2 gypsy girls died. They are 'disliked' to say the least by a great deal of our society - whether they ask for it or not is not something I would wish to comment on. We shouldn't judge people on what is in the newspapers as they 'adjust' things to make a story. :wideeyed:

So are we saying that its all newspapers we cant trust or just 'The Guardian'?What about The Telegraph or Express??? The ones not read by politically correct lefties.

I also read the Italian papers online as many Italian news stories are not reported in the UK.It really is incredibly niave however much you love Silvio to try to deny that he has whipped up hatred towards Roma as well as immigrants to Italy.All in order to get him back into power.

I personally don't put any faith in any newspaper. I have been part of a news story and the inaccuracies in the reports were quite incredible. What I read was completely different to what I experienced.

As for Berlusconi, I think you are right, nothing unites a people more than fear of a common enemy.

[quote=myabruzzohome;96100].........It really is incredibly niave however much you love Silvio to try to deny that he has whipped up hatred towards Roma as well as immigrants to Italy.All in order to get him back into power.[/quote]

I don't think you can blame him for everything [and I wouldn't trust him at all] - as a frequent visitor over 20+ years to Italy, [that's why i ended up buying the holiday retreat there], I am aware that for many Italians, hatred of Romas/gypsies doesn't need stirring up - its already there, [and strong].

I think it is one of those facts of life [and many of us don't like it] that many populations have some race, colour or creed that they dislike/hate.

I don't know what as individuals we can do, other than show, by our own actions, how distasteful such views are. The one thing I am sure of is that 'hand wringing' doesn't help

[quote=juliancoll;96075]"Foreigners" wasn't what was on my mind Nardini. :smile:[/quote]
I'm a foreigner too. Aren't you?

[quote=Noma;96109]I'm a foreigner too. Aren't you?[/quote]

How did I know that [I]you[/I] would pick up on [I]my[/I] post? :bigergrin:

Everyones a "foreigner" somewhere Noma - but as I said, that wasn't what was on my mind.

I love a secret!
What fun!

[QUOTE=myabruzzohome;96053]Noble I dont understand why Charles added that?

Anyway I do share your concerns about this aspect of italy.I have tried to read as much as I can on Italian history ever since we bought a house there .

It appears to me that Italians still only operate on a fuedal / tribal basis having alligences to their families and local comunity rather than to society as a whole.This reminds me of what I found in Ghana rather than of a European country and seems to have its roots in the history of Italy which differs profoundly from the history of other european countries.

The article appeared in the OBSERVER and seemed to be accurate rater than sensational, follow up reporting. For those that missed today's news. Berlusconi lost his recent case against Economist and must pay costs!!

For those who are interested in the history of Italy I would recommend reading The Force of Destiny A History of Italy since 1796 by Christopher Duggan. Penguin Published 2008. For me it fills in the gaps and question marks, other books have not, so to speak.

This is awful and dont know how these people can sleep at night - sunbathing next to dead children. Shame on you all!

[url=http://www.alghero-airport-car-hire.co.uk]Alghero Car Hire from the Italian Car Hire Specialists[/url]

I missed it too but its in the archieves

[url=http://www.alghero-airport-car-hire.co.uk]Alghero Car Hire from the Italian Car Hire Specialists[/url]

[quote=Noble;96154]. For those that missed today's news. Berlusconi lost his recent case against Economist and must pay costs!!
[/quote]

The Economist has consistently argued a fairly convincing case that Berlusconi is not fit to run a country, and has founded its allegations on verifiable truths. I'm pleased Silvio lost his case.

But this 'proper journalism' is not the same thing at all as the tabloid rantings which we are today witnessing from - yes, myabruzzohome - those organs beloved of the social worker class of the UK. They are trying to convince me that Berlusconi eats babies in his time off from even more evil pursuits.

As another book recommendation for further enlightenment try La Casta - in particular the chapter entitled Onorevole S.p.a.

[quote=isawitfirst;96158]This is awful and dont know how these people can sleep at night - sunbathing next to dead children. Shame on you all!

[url=http://www.alghero-airport-car-hire.co.uk]Alghero Car Hire from the Italian Car Hire Specialists[/url][/quote]

I read an article a few days ago which quoted the Italian photographer who took the photo that was used to illustrate virtually all the stories that appeared in the press all around the world. He said that he took numerous photos and he was hugely disappointed that only one of those photos was used - the one that showed people seemingly sunbathing near the dead girls. He said the photo was taken with a zoom lens and the peope were actually quite a way from the bodies and may not even have been aware that they were there . He said that shots he took of policeman sympathetically standing vigil over the bodies, shots of flowers laid alongside the bodies, shots of people looking sombre , respectful or shocked were not used. He also said people ought to remember that it was Italians who pulled the girls out of the water, carried them to the ambulance etc . And so on. I am always astonished at how readily people are ready to believe all the grossest of fabrications that the press cook up to sell their papers. I have been personally involved in more than one story where what was reported differed greatly from the events that I witness or was involved in, so am always wary of sensationalist stories like this.

[quote=Angie and Robert;97470] I am always astonished at how readily people are ready to believe all the grossest of fabrications that the press cook up to sell their papers. [/quote]
But never question whether an exposé of a fabrication is a cover-up. There is a difference between healthy skepticism and prejudgement.

[quote=Noma;97481]But never question whether an exposé of a fabrication is a cover-up. There is a difference between healthy skepticism and prejudgement.[/quote]Unfortunately, Noma, you will have to agree that the premature words of Cardinal Crescenzio Sepe did nothing to help the situation in the eyes of the rest of the world. Prejudgement should always, in my opinion, be something that the church shies away from. I have not noticed any kind of apology or retraction from the good cardinal yet either, which I think is compounding his error of judgement somewhat, thereby lessening his intended message regarding racism.

I think that what the Cardinal meant was the concern of the Church regarding the indifference of people in a situation like this one. Granted that he was only reacting to what we all first saw and believed and not the real facts... if we all know them really.
It was a message to urge people to care more for each other, which is a good thing.

[quote=Gala Placidia;97513]I think that what the Cardinal meant was the concern of the Church regarding the indifference of people in a situation like this one. Granted that he was only reacting to what we all first saw and believed and not the real facts... if we all know them really.
It was a message to urge people to care more for each other, which is a good thing.[/quote]
Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts here, Gala, I still feel that the Cardinal made a huge error of judgement in his reported statement:[quote=Cardinal Sepe]With the sea just a stone's throw away, they did what all children would have done: run into the water to cool off. Instead, they ran to their deaths. The photos in the newspapers were taken when it was too late: you could just make out the feet of the two girls poking out from under a beach towel, with which someone had pitifully covered the lifeless corpses. These sad and horrible photos show us something else, however: sunbathers who continued to lie on the beach, perhaps even irritated by the sight cluttering up the sand.

It is these images which we never wanted to see of our city. We are saddened not only by the two bodies under the beach towels, but by the people who make up the backdrop, people who didn't act and didn't feel remotely concerned.

Turning the other way or minding one's own business can, at times, be more devastating than the event itself.

Indifference is not an emotion for human beings – and it should be even less so when faced with Violetta and Cristina, already scarred by a life of hardship and weakened by the prejudices that must have been difficult to bear at their age.

It is time for Naples to face up to facts. In a community so generous and rich in humanity, we don't want indifference to land us with a new – and more serious – emergency [than the rubbish crisis which submerged Naples]... The city is undoubtedly cleaner and more presentable. But the Church has the duty to look into the soul of its children.[/quote]I feel that his statement was made with more than an eye to public approbation and, for that reason he should be able to apologise for the way in which he made his statement - clearly on the back of what he considered to be public sympathy for a situation that had been created by a cynical and selfish press.

We already know that the story itself was a fabrication. The Cardinal attempted to use that fabricated story for his own ends. His motives in using such a story are, in themselves rather suspect, I feel - even if the ultimate objective (anti racism) is laudable.

In other words, two wrongs do not make a right.

Perhaps, he should apologise to those that he judged as indifferent without knowing the whole truth. After all.... "don't judge lest you be judged"
As for trying to use the story to highlight the world's indifference... one of the favourite proverbs used by the Church has always been "finis coronat opus", or to put it simply, "the end justifies the means"......
But I agree with you, this horrible story has been used and abused.

If we do really agree this story has been used and abused - then lets move on from it now. There is a new story that needs discussing. Details are filtering through.

[quote=juliancoll;97578]If we do really agree this story has been used and abused - then lets move on from it now. There is a new story that needs discussing. Details are filtering through.[/quote]

Two guesses, and I doubt it is the first which is Hank Paulson. So it is the slaughter (allegedly) by the Camorristi of the non-due paying African immigrants? Or something else? Do tell.

You're correct Charles - it seems the Casalesi clan have been at it again in Castelvoltuno. Gotta pay the pizzo - lets see who is (allegedly) outraged at this one.

Well, allegedly, the very same Cardinal is getting himself a byline. Press junkie innit!

Is he outraged again?

My understanding is that the casalesi have been having a fairly long running dispute with another gang that are trying to muscle them out of their traditional family business of drugs and prostitution. The fact that the "other gang" is black is not any kind of an issue for the casalesi - they would have shot them if they were sky-blue-pink! Another example of how the press present a story to suit their readership.

And, yes, the Cardinal has been at it again, apparently. It is the reason that he was sent to Naples, I believe. A papal punishment for letting his mouth run away with him before - on several occasions.

Certainly, the Cardinal is outraged and has asked the Camorra to lay down their weapons, comparing them to "poisonous snakes". He has just done what he is supposed to do, however, I believe that the Camorra will take very little notice of whatever the Cardinal says although other people may feel a bit of comfort from those words.
As for the real story behind the story.... difficult to know as it is not uncommon for innocent victims to die in one of those events. Perhaps they were involved in drug trafficking, perhaps the Camorra decided to kill a group of people belonging to a certain ethnia as a warning to others. It is true that some immigrants, particularly the illegal ones, are used by criminal organisations to traffic or courier drugs, they are always prone to be exploited because of their condition as most of them have no papers and no way to earn a decent living.
Another horrible story.

Even if the story of the indifference shown to the two drowned girls had been true, how would it compare to story of Shaun Dykes?

I wonder if ‘Derby’s shame’ will do the rounds of world headlines?

[url=http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/officers-scene-doing-best-deal-deviant-ghoulish-behaviour/article-371605-detail/article.html]Shaun Dykes, Derby city centre, fatal fall, Derbyshire Chief Constable, Mick Creedon[/url]

Well said Nielo! I'm just waiting for the YouTube version to become available.