12274 passing on reports

Complaint from Barn Elms about JC:

[quote]
Hi, I see that you're considering taking on the role of mediator over this business. I've got to speak up for Sally, who has infuriated me at times but who's actually not as she is being portrayed by juliancoll. In fact I rather admire the fact that she is the only one actually to try to do something about the bullying tactics adopted by her adversary. It took a little while but I ploughed through juliancoll's posts and counted that she had in, no particular order, pro-actively offended annec, Russ, angie, Nicky and me in the space of a couple of weeks with her high-handed and dismissive manner. Sally on the other hand has just been Sally. I do hope that when the moderators come to make a judgement on this issue that they will also have reviewed juliancoll's posts. The absence of hard evidence for these so-called malicious PMs from Sally is very suspicious, the ones that I have received simply stated Sally's opinion of what juliancoll has been up to.
She is a woman of about 60 and to have someone approximately 15 years her junior repeatedly corrupting her name to 'Silly' must be pretty galling. Russ also seems to be a genuine sort of chap and if you read his account of what juliancoll is suggesting happened with the Fund-raising account you might be surprised that juliancoll has the gall to try to blacken his name.
Personally, I've had enough and will take my 'love of all thigns (sic) about italy' to another place well away from IM. Not to 'Abruzzolutely' where Nielo, as Levissima (the forum's moderator) allows a new member who has 'put a foot wrong' to be called a ..... 'gobshite'. Who was it said: "The more I know people the more I love my dog."? Yep! Give me my pastore abruzzese anytime...
Good luck with it all and cheerio.
Richard Soar[/quote]

C'mon Ronald, sort something out, please.........there are times when a reserved silence is dignified and appropriate; there are other times when it exacerbates an already precarious situation.

I'd propose a round of isolation for JC, Sally (at least) and that they are "put in the cooler" for at least 4 weeks. This is not action that I'm happy to taking as it's always been a Ronald-thing....as Garda said, the rest of the mods are around to mop up the spam, so when it's *not* spam-related, help out, please.

From Torchiarolan:

[quote]In view of her denials about sending any unpleasant PMs to people, here is one that I received. Whilst I did not consider it abusive, it was unpleasant, unneccesary, unhelpful and undeserving. I have had others in the past, of which I seem to recall forwarding tone or two to the admin last year at the time of the last blow-out on the forum.
The reason that I have forwaarded this one now, is not to stir things further, but to expose her recent posting as less than honest.
If you wish my reply that I sent her to this PM, just ask for it and I will forward that too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sally Donaldson
Ciao

How I contribute is my business and my business alone, sorry. I do not like being stalked, and the way I and others are being monitored on the Italymag Forum Fund.

Please respect my decision.

With kind regards

Sally
__________________
[url=http://www.justgiving.com/italy-abruzzo-earthquake]Justgiving - ITALY Magazine Abruzzo Earthquake Appeal[/url][/quote]

From Barn Elms:

[quote]Just an afterthought... I think that juliancoll (Karen Stewart?) and her gang feel that she is on the point of victory over this issue and the related one involving Russ. It's as well to know that [B]without Sally's PMs[/B] fewer people would be aware that the clique which juliancoll and Nielo (and others with dual identities) belong to in Abruzzolutely refers to IM Forum as 'the dark side', to IM members as '******s', and targets for abuse specific named IM members, such as adriatica.
One reason why they are keen to see her suppressed...
If Sally is not given a degree of protection from the onslaught, the field will be wide open for the 'juliancoll show' to take centre stage, which will be a pity.
OK, I've probably said too much, this will definitely be my last PM!
Best regards,
Richard Soar[/quote]

I wanted to say also that I received a PM from Sally about 2 weeks ago which was CC'd to me and four other people (seeing as you can only send PMs to 5 people at a time, I presume she was sending the mails "en masse" to people to "rally" them around.

The PM was asking me and the others to "show support for Russ's posts" (while she did not post at all on the open forum).

I have NOTHING against Sally, I have met her in person and felt quite sorry for her, but it does seem clear that she DOES misuse the PM system behind the scenes. I have a feeling there would be many more "reports" against her except it seems that the "Sally" side have no problem running to teacher (an apt metaphor I think given the childishness of it all) whereas the "cool" gang are more reluctant to "grass". Note also Barn Elms' pm to me where he says "without Sally's PMs" they wouldn't be aware of all that goes on on other forums. Basically, Sally is spending her time, when not on this forum, on other ones, finding out what is being said about everyone, then reporting back via PM here! This is absolutely not conducive to a peaceful environment here and she is obviously stirring up trouble. If anyone else did that here they would definitely have their PM facility revoked. Frankly, what goes on on other people's forums, on other people's servers, is nothing to do with us here.

I can also confirm that having spoken to Sally personally about this, she has NO INTEREST in peace whatsoever. This is obviously the reason for her refusal to respond to "olive branches" etc offered by the other side.

Now, why am I going to all this effort given that the forums will be closed down? It's my last ditch attempt to try to help sort things out once and for all. Given what will happen, what can we lose?

I agree that JC goes too far sometimes with her outraged squealing but my attempt here is to put all the facts down so that at least we/you know what is really going on before the plug is pulled.

And, more importantly, given that a different type of community will be offered once the forums go, I think it perfectly possible that the problems will/can continue there.

From Torchiarolan, after I asked him whether Sally's PM was in response to a PM from him or if hers was completely unsolicited:

[quote]
hi Sarah,
Thanks for responding so fast.
No I never PM Sally first. The only time she PMs me is when there is a row on the forum, if I try and post constructively or objectively re the row she seems to percieve me as "one of them"... whereas I actually try to stay "unaligned"
This PM from her was in response to The "Abruzzo earthquake appeal" I hadnt been on this site or forum for about 5/6 mths, went on to see what the news was re the earthquake and made a donation, after which I made 2 posts about difficulty in paying with Paypal.
Sally posted about doing a spoinsored cream egg eat. JC claimed to eat 2 and asked her to contribute the £20. Sally refused and as most people were chipping in contributions, I told her not to so tight and chuck in the £20. How she claims I was stalking her is beyond me, and not being on for so long I wasnt aware of any history beforehand... I have still not found out why juliancollhas withdrawn, but have seen refernce in her post to a row with "Russ".
I woul not have sent this PM of sallys to you, but for Sallys thread "No more please" in which she denies sending any. When I read that most people just delete them, as I hadnt deleted mine, it was maybe one of the few left to disprove her.
I have heard about Sallys more vitriolic PMs before but try not to get involved. When I got into a row with Ronni last year, She sent me some advising me who to avoid, why people are punished etc, and who is wrong and why.

I have an PM from the most unlikely of people saying that sally was unpleasant to her as well, but as she regards PMs as private I would be reluctant it to forward it to you with her name on it

Anyway back to sallys PM to me, I am aware that it is not the most vitriolic compared to others but it does refute her recent thread in which she claims not to send any.
Thanks again Sarah[/quote]

These echo my experiences of PMs from Sally.......she's a great $hit stirrer; I just deleted them & didn't repond, but with hind-sight, maybe I should have "slapped her legs" & told her to play nicely or not at all....

OK, here is more, potentially serious given Russ's threats of injunctions and JC's suggestion that Sally is spreading rumours via PM that JC is fiddling funds from the earthquake appeal.

Russ originally sent a copy of an PM which he was complaining about being abusive, to me and Marc. Marc posted the most offensive bit on the "What the JC" thread.

I asked Russ what had provoked this PM from JC and he replied:

[quote]This is the earliest one I have in my stored messages.

As you can see I was seeking the advice of JulianColl on the ethical question of my suggestion, which I had raised before.

Subsequent replies gave no indication of the tyrade that was to follow. I will send these to you separately. Unfortunately, due to inbox-outbox restrictions, I deleted earlier posts a week or more ago. Can you not access these?

I await to hear from you.

Regards,

Russ[/quote]
I asked JC for the correspondence. Here are, from her, all the PMs before and after. She has asked me to post the entire thread of PMs in response to Russ's complaint.

[quote]
My PM to Russ*after the*email from Russ linking to the Ryanair website competition and asking me to vote for him.* The first part of this PM relates to a previous PM he had sent*- unrelated to this Ryanair stuff.
[quote]
Originally Posted by JC
You are funny - of course I enjoy it - and so do many others - even the ones who complain - granted - not all the time - and
*not for all the reasons - but it does stop things being boring sometimes.

Anyway - just read your email about Ryan air! Are you serious that you would like fat people to pay extra cus they
take up more space?

What would you have a Sumo w restler or one of those massive body builder type guys pay?[/quote]
His reply
[quote]
Originally Posted by Russ
I can see that you do, but remember where the line is honey.

As for Ryanair and their competition, of course I am serious, there is a grand at stake!

If I get enough votes I might even donate 50% to the appeal! As ther were 12,000 entries I thought I did well to get ito the last 5.

And it is bloody annoying when my bag is 1kg over weight and I get charged £20, only then have to spend an an uncomfortable
2 hours shoe horned into a seat, next to a big fattie, carrying 20kg excess baggage and not paying a single extra penny more
than me!

So help me win and the fund gets another 500![/quote]

My response

[quote] Originally Posted by JC
Haha - you should know by now Russ that I'll only ever toe my line - not anyone elses.

Anyway - tell me more about this Ryanair competition - are you serious about 'fatties paying more' or just pretending you are
because there is a grand at stake?

If you won - would you really donate £500 quid to the forum fund from the winnings? How many votes would you need to win?[/quote]

His reply

[quote]
Originally Posted by Russ
Oh, I am serious. It is not that I am a fatist, but the logic of charging excess baggage is based on extra fuel cost. Therefore, it follows that
if a persons weight is excessively over their recommended BMI , they cost Ryanair more in fuel and I dont see why they should not pay.
Looking at it another way, it might encourage the real porkers to lose some kilos before their hols!

I have no idea how many votes I would need, but if someone (nudge, nudge), let it be known that "someone in the forum" was down to
*the last 5 and that the votes of forum members could see 500 euro being donated if I won, I giv e you my word that I would.

However, if you did do this, dont let it be known it is me or I might get hate mail from those who might fall foul of the new rule!

So, what do you say?[/quote]

My response
[quote]
Originally Posted by JC
I say - I need to think about this very carefully - will get back to you.

How did you come up with this idea - what triggered it?

Isn't there any way to see how many votes you have got and how many votes the "leaders" have?[/quote]

His reply

[quote]
Originally Posted by russ
Being sat next to a very large person and I think an American airline muted that they might do it a few years ago.

There is n o way that I can see how the votes are going unfortunately.

Do you think it unethical? It is a win/win isnt it?[/quote]

I ignored the above PM from Russ

[quote]
Originally Posted by Russ
As I have not heard from you, am I to assume that you had second thoughts?[/quote]

I also ignored the above*PM from Russ

Then later, this arrived - exactly the same as the one above (perhaps sent in error or as a bump? I dunno)

[quote]

Originally Posted by Russ
As I have not heard from you, a m I to assume that you had second thoughts?
[/quote]

So I eventua lly replied with this.

[quote]
Originally Posted by JC
I'm in the middle of typing out a proper reply to you but I have guests here until late this evening so cant finish typing it untilthey leave.

Willsendlater.[/quote]

He replied with something like "OK then, wait to hear from you" - but I cant find that PM

And then, the next day*I sent this to Russ.
[quote]

Originally Posted by JC
Why would you think I would think it was unethical? If you thought I would think that, you wouldn't have asked me to help you win
*the competition so I'm not sure what you mean by unethical anyway - in what way - explain 'cus I need to understand clearly what
you mean. Which part of it would be unethical?

tell me what you mean by "It is a win/win isn't it?" cus I'm not 100% sure how you want to play this out.

Sorry to sound like a dork - but its 2.30am and brain isn't working properly now but I see you are also online so will wait a few
minutes for you to reply - if not then I will go to bed and read your reply tomorrow.[/quote]

His reply

[quote]
Originally Posted by Russ
Buongiorno!

I must have just gone to bed (3.30am) when you sent your message. I was like a cat on hot bricks last night. No chance of sleeping.

Anyway, the ethical argument could be that I am only asking this to boost my chances of winning and some might think this wrong.
But as the fund gets half, I am ok with it.

So, over to you. I see we are over £5k Yippee!! Not sure what happened yesterday. I expected a big jump. Hopefully it will happen today.

Russ

PS. Did you look at the new pics?[/quote]
So I replied wth this - 'cus I was well pissed off with the whole thing by now.
[quote]
Originally Posted by JC

Originally Posted by Russ
I must have just gone to bed (3.30am) when you sent your message. I was like a cat on hot bricks last night. No chance of sleeping. Unquote.

ME

You were not the only one who didn't sleep well that night - I was tossing and turning for some reason - even came downstairs to make a cup of tea
to try to get my mind straight and stop fretting. You know how it is - things go through your mind and you analyse them over and over until you decide
that your initial reaction was the right one after all and realise that you should have just gone to sleep in the first place.

Anyway, you wanted to know what I think of this plan of yours.

OK, let me tell you what I think.

I think you are out of your tiny mind. I want no part of it. It's turned my stomach - over and over.

How you could approach me - of al l people on this forum - to ask me to help you win a Ryanair competition about charging "fatties and porkies" extra - beggars belief.

Why would you ask me to front a scheme for you to win a grand by involving the members of this forum so you can pocket 500 quid by dangling the carrot of temptation and "giving your word" you will donate 500 quid if I help you win?

You say you don't want any of the members to know it is you that has entered this competition and put forward this suggestion to manipulate
the vote "in case any of t he fatties and porkies on ItMag send you hate mail". So, it's alright for you to hide your real character behind my skirts
while you continue to post in your PC holier than thou way and allow me to receive the hate mail on your behalf is it? Dream On.

Let me tell you something - you are behaving like a WUSS - a rat in a bucket - I would rather die than have any part of your scheme.

But I know it wont ever come to that because there is no way on Gods earth that you will win your thousand pounds of flesh - no way. Even Ryan air
wouldn't allow your suggestion to win. Why? 'cus it's discrimination. Being a "FATIST" is no better than being racist, ageist, or SEXIST.

Tell ya what, why don't you ask Ryanair to charge gay men and women extra simply because they prefer their own gender?

You'd be the first one on your soapbox, waving banners and screeching about how sexist bigots with=2 0warped minds should not be allowed
to get away with it - wouldn't ya? That's hypocrisy - and you know how much I hate that - don't ya?

But all that said, it's only part of the reason I am offended - because if I'm honest - I can see why you're thinking along the lines=2 0of "extra weight
equals extra fuel" but we both know that isn't your real reason - it's not even because you don't like fat people because they are fat - it's because
you can only see the money - you can only see the possibility of the=2 0prize slipping out of your hand unless you do something about it.

You know very well you currently have no chance of winning anyway, so it is clear to me that your train of thinking is that it is better for you to have half
of something than nothing at all. Hence your "generous" offer to donate 500 quid.

However, the real reason I am offended is because of the cowardly way in which you want to attempt to manipulate me into manipulating the members
into manipulating the votes so you can manipulate your chance of lining your pocket.

There is no way that I would ever knowingly let you donate to the fund with dirty money - I dont approve of your morals or the underhand methods
you a re prepared to use.

I would rather the poor people of Abruzzo go without this money - no matter how desparate they are. Who would want money that was gained from
manipulating people at the expense of others?

I can not begin tell y ou how much this has upset me and how sad I am to have misjudged so badly who you really are. I have allowed sentimentality
for the times we spent chatting in the old chat room here on ItMag to cloud my more recent instincts that you are not the same person I fondly
remembered from so long ago.

You may like to think you are "a man of your word" - but let me tell you something right here and right now - I really am a woman of mine.

I gave you enough chances by=2 0asking you over and over to clarify your intentions and to make sure you really were serious. You assured me time
and time again that you were very serious - so - please, do not attempt to persuade me now that I have "got it all wrong". Do not even think of daring
to test me on this.

I will not demand you leave the forum - I will not even request you do - but I tell you this - if you decide to stay - be very, very, very careful how you
handle yourself - and me - on the forum - because if I even perceive a sly dig or sense anything other than total respect from you - if you attempt to
poke or to suggest to anyone that they modify their behaviour in anyway whatsoever - I w ill rip your head off and let the whole sordid story come tumbling out.

You have my word on that.[/quote]

[/quote]

Continued in next post.

[quote:JC]
This is his PM reply to my 'rat in a bucket' PM. I call it his "damage control PM" cus I think he crapped himself - he knew how upset I was with the whole thing.
I also think he was really daft to even reply to me - if he had just left things there - that would have been the end of it.
[quote]

Originally Posted by Russ
There's not a lot I can say........

Well, in retrospect I can understand why you think I am a money grabbing good for nothing and it is obvious that no matter what I say your mind is made up about me. My focus was on raising more funds for the appeal and I lost sight of the fact that by saying I would give only 50%, a hidden motive of pocketing £500 myself would be seen as my real motive. It wasn't, because frankly, I don't need the mon ey.

If by chance I do win (and obviously the people of Ryanair think it was good enough to be selected out of 12,000 entrie s), you will see £500 donated anyway. And don't think for a second that it will be as a result of your venomous outpouring, it will be because I really care about people and always will.

I would have thought that from the support that I have given to raising funds for the appeal (a lot you have not seen because I have been canvassing various contacts by email) would have been enough for you to consider that my motives were not driven by my own greed.

All that I can say is that I am sorry that I offended you to such an extreme. I made it clear in my first email to you that I had some doubts about the ethics of this idea and all it would have taken was for you to say, "Russ, that would be unethical, so no way". I would have respected your opinion, as I often have and that would have been an end to it.

Anyway, I've said what I needed to say. Believe what you want.[/quote]

By this time I was really annoyed and replied to him with this.

[quote]
Originally Posted by J C

Did I not say the following in my last PM to you?

Quote
"I gave you enough chances by asking you over and over to clarify your intentions and to make sure you really were serious. You assured me time and time again that you were very serious - so - please, do not attempt to persuade me now that I have "got it all wrong". Do not even think of daring to test me on this."

Are you really daring to test me on my word? Unquote

And don't play the "you've got it all wrong" card with me - cus you did not say "Is it unethical?" in your FIRST PM at all - you didn't say that until after three or four PM exchanges.

One more single squeak out of you - and the story goes out onto the main forum.[/quote]

His reply

[quote]
Originally Posted by Russ

Go ahead by all means and the forum can be judge, jury and executioner, rather than just you.

However don't libel me.[/quote]

my reply

[quote]
riginally Posted by JC

Fair enough.
As requested - trial by a jury of the fair minded forum members it will be.[/quote]

From JC continued:
[quote]This was the "standoff point" as I call it. This is where I believe he really crapped himself and thought he had better get his side of the story out on the forum - just in case I really did do it. I think he was kicking himself so much and that is when he bought the bunk beds. (and got ripped off! hahaha serves him right!)

So, what happened next is his first post on the "Do you fancy owning your own bookshop?" thread. Link below - read from post 13 onwards and then come back here, but you may have already read this stuff anyway

[url=http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=11769&referrerid=4%20%20248]Does any one fancy owning their own book shop? - Italy Magazine Forums[/url]
After his first post on the forum thread above I get this.

[quote]
Originally Posted by Russ

See you in court?

You didn't post the "trial details", so I did.

If I establish that you have been sending private messages about me to others members in this forum, which in any way suggests that my motive was for personal gain, I will gain an injuction from the courts to get Poundbury to disclose them, upon which I will take action against you for slander. Don't quote the DPA to me, because it does not apply in situations such as this.

Why you took it upon yourself to say what you did, is totally beyond me.

Hopefully I won't see you in court, but if I do, you will pay for this and that will go to the Earthquke fund too![/quote]

Funny thing is - I havent sent anyone any PMs about him - not that his threats would stop me if I ever did want to, so I ignored his PM and replied to his post in the thread and you can see the 'squaring up' between us on the thread - being very transparent 'coded' messages (don't forget, no one else knew about any of this at the time) and ending where I say "you're pushing your luck".

Then, I got this the next day

[quote]
Originally Posted by Russ
Just so as you know, I have contacted Poundbury Publishing to advise them that I shall be seeking an injunction on them to disclose to my solicitor, via a court order, transcripts of any defamatory private messages you may have sent to other forum members about me. Deleting them from your own account, should they exist, will be pointless, as all messages will be held in their database and these can be accessed.

If you didn't make contact with others, you have nothing to concern yourself about, do you?[/quote]
So I replied with this
[quote]
Originally Posted by JC

I've been patient with you, I really have - but now it's time to tell you that I will PM whoever I choose about any subject I choose and there aint jack you can do about it sonny boy - so stop pushing your luck and go threaten someone else because "quite frankly my dear... "
[/quote]

Then nothing - Russ was on and offline a lot - like a blue arsed fly - but didn't post - and so nothing happened on the forum until I got this

[quote]

Originally Posted by Russ

You really need to check your facts on defamation. Multiple private messages are not immune from libel or defamation laws. Fact.

See a solicitor.

Now you can either stop this now like a good girl, or we can carry on.

I don't threaten anyone, but I do promise you that I will pursue this to court, if you keep this up.

It is odd how you keep referring to yourself in the 3rd person in public forum, when everyone seems to know it is you, judging by the pm's I am getting. And no, I have not named you by PM to anyone, before you leap to another conclusion.

Now, what's it to be Karen?[/quote]

To which I replied -

[quote]
Originally Posted by JC

I tell you what it is to be Russ - it is to be exactly what you want it to be - that's what.

I don't give a flying monkey about your threats - or about what you have said to who, or who ha s said what to you about your sordid story. You can dress it up in any way you choose - it is of no concern to me.

But I tell you what it's NOT going to be anymore - it is not going to be a situation where YOU continuously accuse me of "defaming your character" or a situation where YOU continuously threaten to "take me to court" for doing so.

Tell me, who is really libelling who here?

That simply is not going to happen anymore, because I am tired of you now Russ, I have been patient, I have remained calm, but now I've had enough. Do you really think you can continue to harrass me forevermore and I will just allow your abuse to continue?

You said you wanted the forum to be your judge and jury. That's what you said you wanted - so go on - just do it - lets get it over with.

Open the thread and we can deal with the situation there - lets see if you really are 'a man of your word' and have the courage of your convictions.[/quote]

So that's when I opened the called "Russ's Market Stall" - calling his bluff - I KNEW he wouldnt do it, but I also knew that if I didnt "do something" he would carry on - either PMing me with threats of "legal action" (yeah like I'm really worried about him doing that!) or running his campaign in the background. It was about this time when I knew he had recruited Silly - she aint as daft as she puts on when it suits and I think she saw the "squaring up" on the forum between Russ and I - and realised something was going on.

After Tusk deleted the "Russ's Market Stall" thread, I opened the thread called "What the f...?" and the rest of the rest of the story is split between that one and the thread where Angie says she has "had enough and is taking a break". (where you come into it and very bravely/stupidly decide to tackle the problem)

I don't know who contacted who between Sill and Russ, but I do know that since that time she has PM'd numerous people with either Russ's version (whatever that may be) or her version (whatever that may be) of the events.

I do not have (nor ever had) copies of the PMs Silly sent, But people contacted me to let me know what was going on and what Silly was doing - I DO have copies of the PMs people sent me to tell me about it. It must be true because no one else knew about the situation between russ and I so how would they be able to tell me about it? I think one or two may have also PM'd Marc and Tusk with further information on all that.

They did not PM you because they are fairly new and didn't know you are also a "Caped Crusader" - but I can let you have a copy of that PM, as I was also 'copied in' on the original.

Now, I certainly haven't given Silly any information so the only person she could have gleaned any "information" from is Russ - or made it up, but I believe she has sent PMs to people accusing me of fiddling in some way and making some type of attempt to corrupt the forum fund.
[/quote]

Heavens above. Its a while since I've seen anything like this. Only the Deputy Head or the community bobby will be able to sort this out. Except the accolites might well continue afterwards. You can tell I used to be a teacher! What to do!