11935 Retiring to Italy

Yikes - that's a particularly strange choice of font :)

Erm...well with proof of some cash in the bank, proof of adequate health-care cover and yep - it's really not that difficult.

As far as health cover goes, your UK NHS record would be respected here under a reciprocal agreement. But you do/will need to prove that you have sufficient income to keep yourselves - ie pension, savings etc.

There's some useful guidance from the UK Government's Foreign & Commonwealth Office -> [url=http://ukinitaly.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-italy/what-happens-when-you-retire]What happens when you retire[/url]

I would add to the advice already given that perhaps it is a better idea to rent first and then look for a property to buy, particularly if you are not too familiar with the area. Live there first for a while.... say a year, and then you should be in a better position to decide what you want to do.
Check on your health benefits too. After the age of 65, official retirement age, there is no problem within the EU, but early retirees have encountered some problems in many countries. There are several past threads in the Forum. Do a search using the word HEALTH and you will see some interesting posts.

The hardest thing (and the most important) is speaking Italian...............or perhaps it's "thinking like an Italian"???

[quote=Gala Placidia;113842]I would add to the advice already given that perhaps it is a better idea to rent first and then look for a property to buy, particularly if you are not too familiar with the area. Live there first for a while.... say a year, and then you should be in a better position to decide what you want to do.
Check on your health benefits too. After the age of 65, official retirement age, there is no problem within the EU, but early retirees have encountered some problems in many countries. There are several past threads in the Forum. Do a search using the word HEALTH and you will see some interesting posts.[/quote]

But alanh said they [I]didn't[/I] want to buy. They are looking to rent as they have no heirs to hand anything on to. That seems very sensible stance, taking that into consideration now and thus ensuring that any capital they have will go towards a comfortable retirement for them, and not be confiscated by the Italian government due to a lack of heirs when they pass!

I agree with you renting is a good idea,however if at all possible I would always keep a property in the uk ,no matter how small .

I think that I would always buy a property instead of having all of my capital in investment funds, no matter how secure they are. It is a way of diversifying your options and securing a roof over your head. I do not know whether this exists in all countries, but at least in Spain and France it is possible to own a property and, when you reach retirement age, you can sell it back to a bank or building society or a private investor who will pay you a monthly pension with the right of usufruct of the property until you die. In France it is called "viager" and notaries arrange this kind of deals on your behalf. Is there anything similar in Italy?

[quote=Gala Placidia;113872]I do not know whether this exists in all countries, but at least in Spain and France it is possible to own a property and, when you reach retirement age, you can sell it back to a bank or building society or a private investor who will pay you a monthly pension with the right of usufruct of the property until you die. In France it is called "viager" and notaries arrange this kind of deals on your behalf. Is there anything similar in Italy?[/quote]
I'd be interested in the answer as well. In the US it's called a "reverse mortgage."

My husband only commented on this , about a week ago he read an article in a Washington paper ( that is available in our local market, ) It stated that this is being introduced into Italy and went on to mention some cases in Rome where
some pensioner's living in central Rome had signed over there houses for a regular income and of course the right to live in the house as long as they want .
It then went on to say that due to the economic climate they where having trouble making ends meet ,and was a good solution allowing them to remain in there own homes without always being broke before the end of the month.

We have already discussed similar issues in the Forum. Do a search using the words "usufruct", "usufrutto" "naked property" "nuda proprieta" and I think it is possible to do it but it would be great if someone with the necessary legal knowledge would give an opinion. Last year, for a thread talking about this topic I found an article in Italian which gave some information:
[url=http://www.ilmercatino.it/agenzie-news-archivionews.asp?id=15]IL MERCATINO - VENDITA DI NUDA PROPRIET DELLIMMOBILE E VALORE DELLUSUFRUTTO[/url]
It is in Italian, though, but basically it says that it is possible to sell a property (at a lower price) to someone who only gets the "nuda proprieta" or "naked property" and the seller keeps the money plus the "usufrutto" or usufruct (life use). When we sold a property in France, the buyers were a mother and one of her sons. The mother, according to the title, was getting the usufruct of the property while the son was the owner of the naked property without being able to live in it as long as his mother was alive and residing there.

I wonder if it's possible without another family member.

It is not necessary to have two people, this was just an example of one of the ways it can be done, but technically you only need to find a buyer who will be prepared to wait until the person who has the usufruct dies.

I wonder if the bank can serve as the buyer, as in reverse mortgages in US.

This is what is done in Spain. The bank buys the property, pays you a monthly amount until you die and you have the life usufruct of the property. In France they have a similar system so I would think that Italy should have it also, particularly nowadays when with the Euro it would be easier to have a monthly amount that could be easily adjusted. But you need someone in the legal profession or perhaps a real estate agent to confirm it.

In Liguria some estate agents specialise in this kind of transaction. They advertise in cerca Casa and the local newspaper.

[quote=allanh;113818][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]Hi. I need help in planning a move from the UK (Wales), to Italy. I am 50yrs young, and so is my wife. We have been going to Italy for years, and after some time talking about it, we have decieded to retire there within the next five years.
The area we would like to settle in is South Italy. Around the Sorrento area. Sant' Agnello/Piano or Meta area's. We have no children, so renting or leasing would be better, as no one to hand the house on to.
I have spoken to my local Italian Consulate, and they tell me that there is no problem, just ask the Italian local offices for a residency application, and thats it.
It cant be that simple can it?[/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

at the risk of having my head bitten off by the many who live here i would say to your last question ,no it isn't.I 'm not referring particularly to getting residency etc rather more the implications.health care could well be an issue in the long term,as would having sufficient resources to live for 15 years before getting a pension.i've seen not a few who have retired or moved here only to see the same people leave in periods ranging from 2-4 years.solitude for many appears to be an issue and may aflict most those who do not aquire an excellent comand of italian and or choosing to live in relatively isolated rural areas combined with language problems find they have few friends.this may be highlighted after the summer period when your friends from the uk come for their free holidays but as the late autumn comes they disappear In some cases it seems that personal relations can/do also become strained ie. husband/wife or partners etc who find them selves thrown forced into each others company in an excessive way,or where one of the partners starts to integrate the other no....here is a short list of some of the reasons why some decide to leave that i've heard
too hot,too cold,too dry,too wet,no shops,no M&S,shops closed,can't get things they need/want (marmite again?)everyone speaks italian,no one speaks english,dangerous driving,feeling the need for the N.H.S.,too expensive,ridiculous utility costs,lousy banks,
etc etc.. what they don't tell you is that they went to live in a house in the middle of nowhere,didn't speak a word of italian,spent two years complaining about everything then left again...this is more frequent than you might imagine and in any case worth thinking about.....

Sebastiano's comment on one partner integrating better than the other is very valid. There does seem to be a very high relationship break up amongst the acquaintances I have here - at least 30% to 50%. It would be interesting to know exactly.

One big stress is when one partner learns the language and the other doesn't (or not much) for whatever reason. This means one person is responsible for sorting out all the "stuff" (and boy is there a lot of "stuff" to sort here!) whilst the other feels a bit sidelined or useless.

It can also be very quiet/boring here in winter when everyone hibernates to avoid the winter. No sitting outside cafes watching the world go by! I know most people's dream is an isolated house in a field but it would be our idea of hell. No-one to talk to, have to get in the car for everything (especially tiresome in winter), no walking to the bar, and so on......

[quote=Sebastiano;113977]at the risk of having my head bitten off by the many who live here i would say to your last question ,no it isn't.I 'm not referring particularly to getting residency etc rather more the implications.health care could well be an issue in the long term,as would having sufficient resources to live for 15 years before getting a pension.i've seen not a few who have retired or moved here only to see the same people leave in periods ranging from 2-4 years.solitude for many appears to be an issue and may aflict most those who do not aquire an excellent comand of italian and or choosing to live in relatively isolated rural areas combined with language problems find they have few friends.this may be highlighted after the summer period when your friends from the uk come for their free holidays but as the late autumn comes they disappear In some cases it seems that personal relations can/do also become strained ie. husband/wife or partners etc who find them selves thrown forced into each others company in an excessive way,or where one of the partners starts to integrate the other no....here is a short list of some of the reasons why some decide to leave that i've heard
too hot,too cold,too dry,too wet,no shops,no M&S,shops closed,can't get things they need/want (marmite again?)everyone speaks italian,no one speaks english,dangerous driving,feeling the need for the N.H.S.,too expensive,ridiculous utility costs,lousy banks,
etc etc.. what they don't tell you is that they went to live in a house in the middle of nowhere,didn't speak a word of italian,spent two years complaining about everything then left again...this is more frequent than you might imagine and in any case worth thinking about.....[/quote]

In reply to above. My wife and I have been visiting our chosen area for several years. We have made many local Italian friends from various towns. We have picked up enough Italian to just make ourselves understood. Both myself and my wife are very outgoing, and love meeting people. We have enroled ourselves on Italian Language courses at our local college.
We have every intension on intergrating ourselves into the Italian way of life. We already love the way of life. As for winter time, have you been to the UK during winter time? It cannot possibly any more depressing then being here during the long, dark wet months.
But, thankyou for your reply.

What Sebastiano says is so true, and Roberts Italian is much better than mine. But yesterday afternoon I spent with my neighbour Mario as he tried to show me the finer arts of pruning olive trees, we had such fun together, even with my much more limited Italian, I understood it had to be pruned so that a bird could fly through it, but in his ruthless case I think it might have been an eagle, very funny, and even better when our more reclusive neighbour turned up and told me a story in dialect about as far as I can gather a chemist a dog and a gun, who all went for a walk together...I think?. My language will improve and I get frustrated, but these elderly guys are part of my life here now which I mostly enjoy, wouldnt swap it after 3 years for all of the tea in China, by the way you can buy PG Tips in Corradonia so that fills my only longing.
A

[quote=Penny;113981]Sebastiano's comment on one partner integrating better than the other is very valid. There does seem to be a very high relationship break up amongst the acquaintances I have here - at least 30% to 50%. It would be interesting to know exactly.
quote]

It could be because all the blokes get fed up with being shown up by "Alfredo" types, 84 years old and still skipping around amogst the upper olive tree branches (with their new lightweight ladders) where olny blue tits should dare:bigergrin:

[quote=Carole B;113836]As far as health cover goes, your UK NHS record would be respected here under a reciprocal agreement. But you do/will need to prove that you have sufficient income to keep yourselves - ie pension, savings etc.[/quote]

At the age of 50 you don't get any special health cover from the UK above the E106. They'll only give you that for a maximum of 2 years from when you last worked (i.e. voluntarily retired.)

[quote=allanh;113998] As for winter time, have you been to the UK during winter time? It cannot possibly any more depressing then being here during the long, dark wet months.
But, thankyou for your reply.[/quote]

I feel this depends very much upon where you are moving from in the UK and where to in Italy. If someone is moving to an isolated house or even a small village in Italy having lived somewhere similar in Britain, I believe they will find it easier to adjust and the winter months especially more tolerable. If you're used to living somewhere a bit larger though, it could be a challenge outside of the summer.
For example, I live centro storico in a busy village with plenty of well lit local shops that are open until 7 pm year round. I remember one cold wet night last November I drove home having spent the day with a friend who lives only a short distance away but literally in the middle of nowhere. Driving home in the pouring rain through desolate countryside, it was so nice to finally turn in to our village square and see welcoming signs of life on this miserable evening. Not all villages are as lively as ours year round but it's one of the reasons we opted to buy a place here when we moved permanently.
However, despite this, I still find there are days during the winter when I really and truly need a "fix" of big city lights, so it's great to be able to just hop on the train knowing that Rome (or even Florence) is not much over an hour away.

[quote=Violetta;114042]However, despite this, I still find there are days during the winter when I really and truly need a "fix" of big city lights, so it's great to be able to just hop on the train knowing that Rome (or even Florence) is not much over an hour away.[/quote]

That is exactly how we feel in the winter - Rome and Florence are just a little too far for a day trip althoug techinically it is possible. I too lived in a small village in the UK and my husband is from North Yorkshire (hardly a metropolitan centre :winki:) so it's not as if we were living in the bright lights of London but somehow we were never as desperate for a bit of life in winter as we are here. We're coming to the conclusion that a camper van, with a scooter on the back, might be a good solution. That way we can head off somewhere else with the dog (sun, skiing etc) to relieve the boredom if it really gets too much and don't have to spend a fortune.

Does anyone here have any experience of owning one here?

[quote=Violetta;114042]I feel this depends very much upon where you are moving from in the UK and where to in Italy. If someone is moving to an isolated house or even a small village in Italy having lived somewhere similar in Britain, I believe they will find it easier to adjust and the winter months especially more tolerable. If you're used to living somewhere a bit larger though, it could be a challenge outside of the summer.
For example, I live centro storico in a busy village with plenty of well lit local shops that are open until 7 pm year round. I remember one cold wet night last November I drove home having spent the day with a friend who lives only a short distance away but literally in the middle of nowhere. Driving home in the pouring rain through desolate countryside, it was so nice to finally turn in to our village square and see welcoming signs of life on this miserable evening. Not all villages are as lively as ours year round but it's one of the reasons we opted to buy a place here when we moved permanently.
However, despite this, I still find there are days during the winter when I really and truly need a "fix" of big city lights, so it's great to be able to just hop on the train knowing that Rome (or even Florence) is not much over an hour away.[/quote]

I am coming from a town in South Wales called Bridgend. Its an industrial town, with not a lot going for it. I work in Cardiff. The area I live in, is a village on the outskirts of Bridgend. The problem is, as with many places these days, is that nobody wants to socialise anymore. I have not seen, let alone spoken to my neighbours for days. Its not a true community anymore.
The place I am going to live in in Italy, is either Sant' Agnello, Piano de Sorrento, or Meta. All these towns are part of Sorrento near Napoli. Here people are so differant. More sociable. Even people who have never met me before say hello.
So I know that my wife and I, are making the right decision, and that we will enjoy the rest of our lives in one of the most wonderful countries in the world.

"The rest of our lives"...hmmm I could never say forever. All I can say is that at the moment where I am right now is good, & I am enjoying it, but who knows. I am a gypsy type & the unknown has always beckoned. My other half is a lets get our knees under the table & get on with it. I must admit due to the economic situation, "our plans" to be footloose & fancy free when we got here have been curbed. So the farthest we go is to the coast (40 mins) to get our kicks & a cosmopolitan feel. I'd love to hitch up the old carra & just set off on an adventure. On reflection maybe the searching for a home in Italy,(18 months touring around it), was my best bit. Though I am not complaining, my life here is sweet. As long as the other half is by my side that's all that really matters....Oh, and I can get hold of me Marmite & Earl grey of course!
Sprat

Hi Allanh

We've been here almost six years now so can speak from a little experience. Like you with your choice of the Sorrento area and us with Tuscany we are both in areas where tourists and other 'fulltime foreigners' are not uncommon. But, I would urge you to remember that even though your friends and ours are very friendly, supportive etc. we will always remain detatched from 'real' Italian life. This point was confirmed when we were chatting with our lovely Italian language teachers (now friends) when they came up to lunch last week. This will be the case even if you have perfect Itatian, the difference, we're not Italian. In the same way, we do not expect immigrants coming into GB, even with perfect English to fully understand the workings of the traditional UK way of life.

"You don't understand real Italian life, its problems, we want to leave there's no hope for our generation, etc etc etc."
Of course we agreed - we cannot understand, we will always be a bubble (a UK bubble) that occasionally or if you're lucky often touches Italian life.

There is no way I would dent your enthusiasm because moving here was the best thing we did, but I would want to be absolutely sure of my financial security before I leapt! How would you cope if things went wrong. ie. long-term ill health for one partner etc. Think about long term care, think about the arrangements you would need to make for the 'end of your life'....

So away from that gloomy thought I really hope it goes well for you, with all the planning and work you are doing it should do.:smile:

To integrate into a different culture is a difficult task for most people. A small percentage are naturally "gifted" for this, but it is only a minority. To speak the local language, as well as you can, is a must and it takes a lot of effort. Also, some major considerations have to be taken into account when you decide to move, particularly where are you going to live. If you decide to go to a lonely place, far away from neighbours and facilities it may be fine for a while and during holidays, but you are going to start feeling isolated.
Another aspect that has to be taken into consideration is how attached you are to your family and old friends in your country. Do not expect that just because you bought that lovely villa in Italy they are going to be coming to visit you all the time. This may happen the first year, perhaps the second, but then you will get less visitors coming and if you were counting on them to fill up your lonely life, then you made a big mistake.
Try to make friends amongst the locals, do not seek refuge amongst those of your same nationality just because you speak a common language. These are not real friends, possibly you would not even look at them in your own country. Friends are chosen because of affinities, not because they speak the same tongue.
And if, after a while, you feel miserable, don't waste your time. Life is too short. You made a mistake and that's all. Pack up and leave.

Thank you Aretina & Gala for putting it so well. It is difficult to convey what you describe without sounding negative and off putting.

We've been here 5 years and we love living here and have no regrets but making a living is very hard. Tax is high and INPS horrendous. I know a lot of Brits on UK pensions (or those of us who earn their living in GBP) are really struggling with the terrible exchange rate (parity again!) at the moment. The cost of living here is no cheaper really than the UK and utilities are substantially more expensive, which was certainly a surprise for us.

I suspect a trip back to the UK to do some work is on the cards for me, which was not meant to be part of the plan. But still I love being here!

It is very difficult to understand when you are only visiting (no matter how often or for how long) is how difficult it is to integrate without some cause (e.g. kids or working for someone here). I think the reason is that generally speaking, Italians are so friendly and welcoming that you feel like their friend almost straight away. However, when it comes to true friendship with people you have something in common with, it is a much slower process. People that always seemed to be inviting you out when you were visiting are actually busy with their own lives and quite often have been making the effort because you are over for a week (or are proud of their country and showing it off) and when you are here all the time you may find they are actually quite busy and the invites are naturally more spread out.

Most people (like us) make friends with their neighbours, which is lovely. But are they the same kind of people you would seek to socialise with back in Britain because you enjoy their company and have things in common with? I ask this because after 5 years here, it is this social interaction that we miss. This is why the majority of people here still mostly socialise with the "Brit Pack" no matter how long they have been here and how fervently they said they wanted to integrate. Integration in my experience is quite difficult. Having said that, for the first 2-3 years I was still revelling in being here so much that I didn't notice this. Maybe it is something that comes after a few years of living here. I suppose I didn't notice the boring winters for the first 2-3 years either! I certainly never thought I'd be yearning for a city at times :smile:

Maybe it is because we are not early retirees/retirees. We're in our early 40's and it is difficult to meet people of our age as most are understandably utterly wrapped up in their families and friends they have had since childhood. That is not to say we don't have friends in other age groups but we do feel the desire for some friendship with Italians of our own age whose lives have parallels wit our own.

Also, friends in older age groups are retired and do not always appreciate that the rest of us are working. An example is that I tried to get a social evening organised before Christmas for Italians and English people to meet, have a few nibbles and a glass of wine and try out their English or Italian on some native speakers and maybe make some new friends. I had plenty of Italian takers but hardly any English. I was asked by several English people "why does it have to be in the evening?" and told "it would be better in the summer". The reason it was in the evening is because us and the Italians are working and only have evenings free. It was not in the summer because the Italians want to do other things (beach maybe?) in the summer and our cycling business is at it's busiest in summer. That is no criticism of anyone who responded to me at all but just an example of how we all live our lives very differently here.

I hope I don't sound negative. I don't intend to, as we love living here and without the kind of enthusiasm you are expressing Allan, would probably not have made the move ourselves. Having just come back from a holiday in the UK (including some very beautiful parts in N. Yorkshire), we still are 100% certain this is where we want to be.

These comments echo my own feelings on living in Italy.We have also got to 'know' neighbours and enjoy a friendly drink with the previous owner of our house when in town. However this isn't the same as making real friends that you can share lifes ups and downs with, not to mention jokes!! As you say once you move permanantly to an area it seems that you are more 'taken for granted' and locals move on to someone more interesting!!

I'm guessing that you probably need to look outside your immediate neighbourhood for the type of friends you may have made in the UK who may share many of your interests and outlooks on life although of course there will be exceptions.

Another aspect of Italian life is the amount of time Italians spend socialising with their families, whereas in the UK many of us only see families at big holidays like Christmas prefering to socialise with friends most of the time.

I think it all boils down to doing your homework very, very carefully before deciding where to live. We spent a long time waiting for a house to come up in a village we knew was very popular with Italians like us, people who share our interests and also welcome foreigners who are geniunely keen to integrate. And it's worked for we know we've integrated, people tell us this regularly. In fact, one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me was when two of the old ladies who sit on the village wall commented that my husband and I were "true village people, not like those disinterested weekending Romans"! We were both so chuffed.
But it takes work. You do have to set aside an inordinate amount of time for people sitting on the wall talking, knocking on their door, how are you, how's your leg, how's your mother, I know you like to visit your husband's grave on a Wednesday but it's raining so can I give you a lift? Italians like to talk and if they know you like to talk too, you're in. Many of them are genuinely interested in hearing about how different our lives have been yet we're all neighbours now, we have common interests, we share common values.
Perhaps we had a slight advantage in that we are both quite outward going and we have spent virtually all our adult lives abroad living in foreign places and/or expat communities so making new friends from scratch is something we're very much accustomed too. But we find Italians immensely hospitable - and not just the professional retired metro types but everyone - and have been invited to Sunday lunch (or Christmas lunch, Easter Sunday lunch) dozens of times. Even a few shopkeepers we know pretty casually have invited us to join them for lunch on public holidays.
As always, I believe you get out what you put in but a hundred times over.

I always try to imagine the reverse scenario. What would be the reaction and expectations of the local UK population to the Italian equivalent of me moving into a provincial town or village? It's useful to remind myself that I'm the foreigner in Italy. Of course, that's immensely helped by the fact that the notion of "being Italian" comes a long way second to "being marchigiani" , or even "being from this village rather than the one on the next hilltop"

Once again a great thread very thought provoking and filled with lots of first hand information.

All I would like to add is that once or twice I almost sense an implication of a rose tinted view of the UK when it comes to friends, family and community.

In many communities in the UK I would think that it is just as hard to integrate as Italy. People are pretty insular and stuck in their ways even perhaps especially in the big cities. The perception that speaking the same language or coming from the same background means it is easier to have an active social life is difficult to reconcile with the rat race that UK life is.

Also in our case, many very good friends live considerable distances away so we only get to see them every six weeks if we are lucky (usually much longer ). Our lifestyles (excess work and lots of family stuff) mean that we are lucky to even see friends who literally live across the road once every six weeks. Likewise family is scattered around the country and the world and seeing them takes a major feat of planning.

As for neighbours making an effort to find out about each others lives or make new friends I think I have come across that perhaps twice in my life here. People are just too busy with their own lives.

So I think that yes, obviously cultural differences will make it more difficult in Italy but that does not mean that the grass is greener on the other side.

Well, what a wonderful response to my original question. I would like to thank you all for your guidance and help. I have taken each one on board and will be doing just what you all have sugested. I have printed loads of reading material from the UK in Italy web site, and from other official web sites as well.
Thank you all very much, and please continue to give your comments, more information I get, the better.
I am visiting Sant' Agnello in July, so I will make some contacts, and get some information from the local council then.
Grazie

Can anyone on this forum give me a contact number for any property agents in the Sorrento area? I have emailed two, but no replies.
Thankyou.
Allan.

Well Allan the quality of this forum seems to get better all the time and the quality of replies so far really good and worth reading again and again. There's nothing like hearing from those who have already trodden the road you are contemplating. I think we all make our own lifestyle and if we are not happy with it then the answer is seldom to up sticks and hope something new will fix everything, but that is not say the attractions of Italy for those willing to be flexible and with the humility to accept the differences in attitudes and to go with them will not bring huge rewards. My suggestion is to try to hang on to your UK property if possible and to rent something in real Italy for a time including at least one winter and that will really convince you of the rightness of your intended move.