2311 No More Underdeclaring: An Update

very good but I don't understand why the tax was higher before - what did it used to be based upon?

[QUOTE=sdoj]very good but I don't understand why the tax was higher before - what did it used to be based upon?[/QUOTE]

the tax was higher because based upon the price.
If you declared a price equal to the valore catastale the tax office was forced to accept it, but if you declared an higher price (this happened for many different reasons, i.e. pre-emption), you payed an higher tax.
Now price and fiscal value are two different things:
taxes are payed upon the valore catastale even if the price is (as usual) hugely higher.
I remind you that the new rules do not apply to all purchases, but ONLY when:
- vendor and buyer are not acting in a professional way (they are not entrepreuners)
- the purchase asset is an house, a garage or a wharehouse
- the buyer asks to the notary to apply the new taxation system

Considering that the notary's fee is calculated upon the price, there's a 20% sale on these fees, in order to neutralize the increase of the purchases value.
'

Nice to see a 10K saving! I'm sure you'll find plenty of use for it later.

I'm curious to get Notiao's opinion on the 20% discount on the Notary fees. My question is .... does the 20% discount really offset the higher fee applied due to insertion of the real price in the contract?

David
[url]www.tuscanydoc.com[/url]

[QUOTE=David]Nice to see a 10K saving! I'm sure you'll find plenty of use for it later.

I'm curious to get Notiao's opinion on the 20% discount on the Notary fees. My question is .... does the 20% discount really offset the higher fee applied due to insertion of the real price in the contract?

David
[url]www.tuscanydoc.com[/url][/QUOTE]

The answer is yes.
Unless the difference is really huge, the 20% discount decreases the fee to a level that is about the same of the previous with the "declared price" system.
For my category the new system is essentially neutral under the "economic" side, but surely better under the professional side.

Notaio,
Does that mean you think Italian clients will come "clean" from now on? or perhaps they percieve a sort of downside in stating the commercial value on the deed of sale and therefore continue to underdeclare price? I guess what I'm really asking, is if this new law will really change behaviour or will we always have to refer to the "tecnocasa's" and the likes to get an idea of real estate price trends?

David
[url]www.tuscanydoc.com[/url]

Thought I would put this in from other thread as it's relevant to this one.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [B][FONT=Verdana]notaio[/FONT][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT][I][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]3) The new system of the declared prices it's only about urban houses, it doesn't apply to fabbricati rurali.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I]

[QUOTE=David]Notaio,
Does that mean you think Italian clients will come "clean" from now on? or perhaps they percieve a sort of downside in stating the commercial value on the deed of sale and therefore continue to underdeclare price? I guess what I'm really asking, is if this new law will really change behaviour or will we always have to refer to the "tecnocasa's" and the likes to get an idea of real estate price trends?

David
[url]www.tuscanydoc.com[/url][/QUOTE]

Of course it needs time to change a well-established behaviour and I'm not a predictor, so I do not know what will happen in the future, but I think that clients will become "cleaner".
First of all because - today - there are no further fiscal consequences declaring the "real" price, moreover because with a real declaration any eventual argument arising between vendor and buyer (or third parties, like vendor's creditors) would be based on the real value of the purchased asset.
In these first days people are declaring, with a couple of exceptions, the
real price, even if with a mixture of incredulity and wonder.

Hi all,

I've been away from the forum for a while which has always been a good source of information regarding current affairs and was suprised to find this thread on under declaring.

I bought 3 years ago and under declared at the time (as was the practice). Any views on how the new regulations will effect capital gains tax at the time of future sale. Or is the view that the new method of tax assessment will bring the taxable value of the property down towards what was the under declared value.

Regards

David.

[quote=Jig (wife of Brendangfc)]oh ,have just 5 to sparespend most of my time looking at the Bitching thread .Anyway anyone who is interested , we completed on our villa this evening . Our lawyer Gabrielle says to hold off the celebration untill tommorow ...but the champayne is waiting for Brendan gfc as he walks through the door.....
Wish Aliena was here.....no really I do ...where is she !?[/quote]

Guys,
Congratulations and best wishes! I know this has been a long time coming. Hope to share a glass with you both again soon!
CHEERS!!

Derek

[QUOTE=DPC]Hi all,

I've been away from the forum for a while which has always been a good source of information regarding current affairs and was suprised to find this thread on under declaring.

I bought 3 years ago and under declared at the time (as was the practice). Any views on how the new regulations will effect capital gains tax at the time of future sale. Or is the view that the new method of tax assessment will bring the taxable value of the property down towards what was the under declared value.

Regards

David.[/QUOTE]

David,
if you sell within 5 years from your purchase there's a taxable capital gain.
The gain must be added at your total italian income and this might increase a lot your taxes.
To avoid this effect with the new regulations, there is the opportunity to pay an "alternative tax" (imposta sostitutiva) equal to 12.50% of the capital gain.

Hi

Can someone clarify the fabbricati rurali situation?

As notaio mentioned in a previous thread "most of the properties people are looking for are of the fabbricati rurali type".

The farmhouse (ruin:D ) we are purchasing is having it's status changed to urban, does this property now come under the new rules?

Grazie

Dave & Dawn

[QUOTE=YNot]Hi

Can someone clarify the fabbricati rurali situation?

As notaio mentioned in a previous thread "most of the properties people are looking for are of the fabbricati rurali type".

The farmhouse (ruin:D ) we are purchasing is having it's status changed to urban, does this property now come under the new rules?

Grazie

Dave & Dawn[/QUOTE]

Yes if it is changhed in catasto urbano and classified as "abitazione" (house) -"autorimessa" (garage) or "magazzino" (wharehouse)

Thanks for that notaio.

I do have a question regarding the 20% discount.

As an example:

House Cost: E100.000
Declared value E50.000

Old system Tax E5000

New System E10.000 minus 20% = E8000

The figures may be extreme, but is the philosophy correct?

The only way to break even would be if the declared value was E80.000.

I must admit that the impression I get is that the declared values are normally lower than 80% of the purchase price.

Thanks

Dave

[QUOTE=YNot]Thanks for that notaio.

I do have a question regarding the 20% discount.

As an example:

House Cost: E100.000
Declared value E50.000

Old system Tax E5000

New System E10.000 minus 20% = E8000

The figures may be extreme, but is the philosophy correct?

The only way to break even would be if the declared value was E80.000.

I must admit that the impression I get is that the declared values are normally lower than 80% of the purchase price.

Thanks

Dave[/QUOTE]

Here's an example of how it works.

Price declared €. 250.000
fiscal value (valore catastale) €. 50.000
tassa registro €. 5.000 (10% of the fiscal value and [B]no more of the price[/B])
notary's fee based on €. 250.000 but with a 20% discount.
The 20% discount is about the fee, not the taxes.

Notiao; in the instance above, would you declare the actual price of the transaction (€250,000) to the Castato?.. and if so, would they not then be justified in modifying the valore catastale to €250,000, with all the financial consequences that entails.

For example, when they later came to sell the house, the vendors would have to find a buyer willing to pay €25,000 in Tasso Registro and that could have the effect of lowering the value of the house quite dramatically, if they were competing in a market alongside similar houses with a valore catastale of €50,000.

...but if they have gone to all this trouble to change the tax laws why are we still talking about 'declared' and 'un- declared' ...this is the biggest source of confusion for any 'foreign' buyer .

What is the reasoning behind NOT saying :

this house is evaluated at 'x' Euros and therefore the tax is :
'a' if it is rural
'b' if it is urban ???

Too simple ???:confused:

[QUOTE=Jig (wife of Brendangfc)]oh ,have just 5 to sparespend most of my time looking at the Bitching thread .Anyway anyone who is interested , we completed on our villa this evening . Our lawyer Gabrielle says to hold off the celebration untill tommorow ...but the champayne is waiting for Brendan gfc as he walks through the door.....
Wish Aliena was here.....no really I do ...where is she !?[/QUOTE]

[B][COLOR="Red"]Brendan and Jig, Congratulations on your new purchase!! [/COLOR][/B]We have also been informed of this new loophole in the new law by the same lawyers (Giambrone Law)and Ramon (tax expert) explained to us that we can potentially save a small fortune in tax by exchanging contracts within the next few weeks; so our purchase date has been moved forward by 2 months, but apparently our lawyers have calculated that we could save up to €13,000 in tax.

If anyone has any doubts about this new legislation and the effects on CGT, I recommend to contact Giambrone & Law's Tax Department by email (giambronelaw.co.uk) and their lawyers will normally be able to explain the immediate consequences of such a new Act: it is not valid for everyone and there are a lot of exceptions, as the Notaio said. But the most important this is: act QUICKLY before the loophole is closed and the cadastrial values are increased. :eek: :eek:

[QUOTE=notaio]Here's an example of how it works.

Price declared €. 250.000
fiscal value (valore catastale) €. 50.000
tassa registro €. 5.000 (10% of the fiscal value and [B]no more of the price[/B])
notary's fee based on €. 250.000 but with a 20% discount.
The 20% discount is about the fee, not the taxes.[/QUOTE]

Notaio,

if the parties agree that the purchase price is €250,000 and their lawyers prepare and exchange the Preliminary contracts, then they go to the Notaio and under-declare the price anyway to pay lower Notary Fees, how can the Notaio be sure that the correct price has been vetted and declared?

In other words, using your example:

Price agreed: €250.000
Price declared (to the Notaio) €. 100.000
fiscal value (valore catastale) €. 50.000
tassa registro €. 5.000 (10% of the fiscal value
notary's fee based [B]on €. 100.000[/B] but with a extra 20% discount.

Does it mean that the parties (if they want to be sneaky and save money) will have to start lying to the Notaios too???

What if they declare €50.000 in the Public Deed? The fees for the notaio will be calculated on €50K minus 20%???
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Laura

Hopefully the devious bstards will sell the house later for E500.000 and get stung for E450.000 of capital gains!!

If the notary is charging the correct scale of fee for his service why rip him off?

What a world we live in eh, get your own Rip-off boot in first.

If you want to be really sneaky don't offer E250.000 for summat that's worth E50.000 :D

Dave

[QUOTE=YNot]Laura

Hopefully the devious bstards will sell the house later for E500.000 and get stung for E450.000 of capital gains!!

If the notary is charging the correct scale of fee for his service why rip him off?

What a world we live in eh, get your own Rip-off boot in first.

If you want to be really sneaky don't offer E250.000 for summat that's worth E50.000 :D

Dave[/QUOTE]

Hi Dave

wasnt in any way suggesting to rip off the notaries or encouraging this trend!! maybe this new legislation has been very ill thought, i believe, and those who will take advantage of these loopholes will be the ones who complete their sales before the government will change the rules again!

I beleive some areas have already done some re-valuation - and have sent out tax demands, based on the difference between the declared price and the new valore catastale, for house sales going back a couple of years at least. Nothing in Italy is simple.....

Funny that, somehow didn't think it would be. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=YNot]Laura

If you want to be really sneaky don't offer E250.000 for summat that's worth E50.000 :D

Dave[/QUOTE]

The problem is not really as simple as it seems, Dave. In Italy, the taxes charged on property sales, and the fees charged by Notaii have traditionally been based on the assumption that people are going to under-declare, hence they are unrealistically high. It may be that in the long term, if people could be persuaded to declare the real value of property they are buying, taxation and fees could be reduced and still generate more income. In the meantime, the risk is that those who are honest risk paying as much as 5 times as much as those who aren't, ensuring that the system perpetuates itself.

It seems to me that the only way to alleviate the problem would be for the Compromesso to be made a public document, ratified by the Notaio, instead of a private agreement.

Happened to be in an Italian Tax Office just before Xmas and the Tax Inspector was commenting on how foreigners just did not undertsnad how the system worked and created problems by declaring the actual value of the sale......

When in Rome (or Puglia or wherever).....

[QUOTE=notaio]David,
if you sell within 5 years from your purchase there's a taxable capital gain.
The gain must be added at your total italian income and this might increase a lot your taxes.
To avoid this effect with the new regulations, there is the opportunity to pay an "alternative tax" (imposta sostitutiva) equal to 12.50% of the capital gain.[/QUOTE]

Are we talking 'prima casa'? I have been told you can buy another 'prima casa' within a year to avoid capital gain. Can anyone shed any light on this?

thanks
Jilly

[QUOTE=Jilly]Are we talking 'prima casa'? I have been told you can buy another 'prima casa' within a year to avoid capital gain. Can anyone shed any light on this?

thanks
Jilly[/QUOTE]

There's no capital gain if you sell "prima casa".
Moreover, you you sell it and buy another house within a year you save the taxes you payed on your first purchase.
Example:
1st purchase "prima casa" on [B]30.1.2005[/B], you pay €. 5.000 for registro, trascrizione and catasto (3% + €. 168,00 x 2)
On [B]30.6.2005 [/B]you sell that house and [B]today[/B] you buy a new house and should pay €. 6.000, but you can save the taxes already payed on you first purchase and so you pay only [B]€. 1.000[/B]

[QUOTE=Marc]The problem is not really as simple as it seems, Dave. In Italy, the taxes charged on property sales, and the fees charged by Notaii have traditionally been based on the assumption that people are going to under-declare, hence they are unrealistically high. It may be that in the long term, if people could be persuaded to declare the real value of property they are buying, taxation and fees could be reduced and still generate more income. In the meantime, the risk is that those who are honest risk paying as much as 5 times as much as those who aren't, ensuring that the system perpetuates itself.

It seems to me that the only way to alleviate the problem would be for the Compromesso to be made a public document, ratified by the Notaio, instead of a private agreement.[/QUOTE]

The Compromesso can be a public document notarized than you need to register it to the Agenzia delle Entrate and pay the relevant fees then it needs to be transcripted to the Conservatoria dei Registri Immobiliari

[QUOTE=Dave-ItalianChoice]The Compromesso can be a public document notarized than you need to register it to the Agenzia delle Entrate and pay the relevant fees then it needs to be transcripted to the Conservatoria dei Registri Immobiliari[/QUOTE]

The fee for Conservatoria isn't so relevant:
€. 262,00
the taxes payed when you register it in Agenzia Entrate - a.k.a. Ufficio del Registro - are considered a retainer of the taxes that will be payed for the final contract, so you do not pay them twice.
There's the notary's fee, but considering that in Italy compromessi are usually drafted by notaries and their cost is included in the fee for the final contract (atto pubblico), so if you choose to "register" the compromesso this doesn't involve that the notary's fee will double, but you only have to pay the extra-activity:
registrazione of the compromesso and conservatoria (land register): about €. 400/500
I strongly advise the choice to have compromesso with public contract and to have it registered in the conservatoria, above all when there's a deposit of relevant amount or when the vendor might have prblem (debits, defoult etc).
If you have the compromesso registered in the land register there's no possibility for the vendor to sell the house or the land to another person and all the potential risks related to the vendor (mortgages, foreclosures etc) do not produce effect for the buyer.
It hasn't been very used till now, because of the declared price system (since compromesso had the "real" price) but now this strong extra guaranty has no huge fiscal costs.

[QUOTE=notaio]
It hasn't been very used till now, because of the declared price system (since compromesso had the "real" price) but now ...[/QUOTE]

There are still only a few cases where you dont have to under-declare anymore.

A question on underdeclaring?

we are buying a holiday home near barga in Northern Tuscany

Compromesso was signed pre Christmas with Rogito to be signed shortly

However have been advised by the Notario that because we are buying a holiday home then the current underdeclaring rules do not apply and as such we still need to pay the tax on the declared value and not the cadastral value

Is this correct or is he trying to pull a fast one?

[quote=harryb]A question on underdeclaring?

we are buying a holiday home near barga in Northern Tuscany

Compromesso was signed pre Christmas with Rogito to be signed shortly

However have been advised by the Notario that because we are buying a holiday home then the current underdeclaring rules do not apply and as such we still need to pay the tax on the declared value and not the cadastral value

Is this correct or is he trying to pull a fast one?[/quote]

[LEFT]We bought a holiday home, signed the compromesso last year and rogito on 12th January this year. The new tax rules applied so I think your notary is wrong. Try sending a PM to 'notaio' who is a notary using this forum.[/LEFT]

[QUOTE=brendangfc][LEFT]We bought a holiday home, signed the compromesso last year and rogito on 12th January this year. The new tax rules applied so I think your notary is wrong. Try sending a PM to 'notaio' who is a notary using this forum.[/LEFT][/QUOTE]

Thanks Brendan
I guessed he was wrong as the recent changes seem fairly straightforward to me as we fall into the qualifying criteria
I will PM the Notaio just to make sure

[QUOTE=harryb]A question on underdeclaring?

we are buying a holiday home near barga in Northern Tuscany

Compromesso was signed pre Christmas with Rogito to be signed shortly

However have been advised by the Notario that because we are buying a holiday home then the current underdeclaring rules do not apply and as such we still need to pay the tax on the declared value and not the cadastral value

Is this correct or is he trying to pull a fast one?[/QUOTE]

I've no direct knowledge of your purchase, so I cannot understand why your notary affirmed so, but the conditions for the new system are:
a - vendor and buyer must not be negotiating for commercial purposes: they must be "ordinary people"
b - the asset that is going to be sold must be an urban house (that is registered in catasto urbano and not a "fabbricato rurale") or a garage (category C/6) or a wharehouse (cat. C/2).
So if your house is a fabbricato urbano (cadastrial category "A" - you'll find it shown in the compromesso) the new system is working, no matter if it is a villa, a holiday home, the first or the 50th house you're buying.

If the house is registered as "fabbricato rurale", you can ask the vendor to change it in urbano before the final contract.

[QUOTE=harryb]A question on underdeclaring?

we are buying a holiday home near barga in Northern Tuscany

Compromesso was signed pre Christmas with Rogito to be signed shortly

However have been advised by the Notario that because we are buying a holiday home then the current underdeclaring rules do not apply and as such we still need to pay the tax on the declared value and not the cadastral value

Is this correct or is he trying to pull a fast one?[/QUOTE]

There is no reason for the notary to try and pull a fast one, I would consider that possibility very very unlikely!
From what you have said I would guess that you are buying from a company or impresa. If this is so, then you pay a small flat registration tax and VAT on the actual transaction price. That is why you still pay VAT on the declared price - the cadastral price is irrelevant and you pay on the actual sums changing hands. That is why the title "no more underdeclaring" is a bit misleading as the rules don't apply if you are buying from a company and not a private individual, plus the other reasons notaio lists above. Though in your case it seems likely it's because you are buying (if I've guessed correctly) from a company.
If you are in fact buying from a private individual, then one or other of situations listed by notaio must apply - check and see.
HTH
Sarah

Thanks to a very kind lady who likes fare casino :cool: , I've been notified that a [B]warehouse[/B] which I explained is included in the new price system, is normally used in english only for very big commercial property.
Just to be clear, for "warehouse" I meant [B]NOT[/B] big buildings, but instead, the part of a building, normally a single room, used to store food, old things no more used etc. usually placed as cellar or attic.
In italian it's called locale magazzino, or soffitta or locale cantina.

[QUOTE=notaio]I've no direct knowledge of your purchase, so I cannot understand why your notary affirmed so, but the conditions for the new system are:
a - vendor and buyer must not be negotiating for commercial purposes: they must be "ordinary people"
b - the asset that is going to be sold must be an urban house (that is registered in catasto urbano and not a "fabbricato rurale") or a garage (category C/6) or a wharehouse (cat. C/2).
So if your house is a fabbricato urbano (cadastrial category "A" - you'll find it shown in the compromesso) the new system is working, no matter if it is a villa, a holiday home, the first or the 50th house you're buying.

If the house is registered as "fabbricato rurale", you can ask the vendor to change it in urbano before the final contract.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your advice.
Checking through the Compromesso, the house is listed as a category C/2,
a recent conversion from a barn. The vendor, who is a private individual, is the sole owner and habitant of the house.
It would seem then that compliance to the new system is there.

[QUOTE=harryb]Thank you for your advice.
Checking through the Compromesso, the house is listed as a category C/2,
a recent conversion from a barn. The vendor, who is a private individual, is the sole owner and habitant of the house.
It would seem then that compliance to the new system is there.[/QUOTE]

It would seem to me too.
May be that notary's having some trouble with the local Ufficio del Registro about the interpretation of the new law.
In the first days it seemed that a warehouse/barn could be sold with the new system only if annexed to a house.
Now, at least here in Macerata, but I've no different informations from other parts of Itay, there's no doubt that even if sold alone a C/2 is in compliance with the new law.
Unless the surface of your building is so vast that it might be hardly considerd a warehouse in the sense I explained in the previous post below.
Anyway this is something that the notary can easly solve before the contract, talking with the Uffico del registro.

Could anyone tell me the details of the new law.

Does it have a title, or a number and a date of when it was passed or something like that?
(Want to be able to quote it if necessary)

Thanks, Lesley & Brian

[quote=iwanttobeinitaly]Could anyone tell me the details of the new law.

Does it have a title, or a number and a date of when it was passed or something like that?
(Want to be able to quote it if necessary)

Thanks, Lesley & Brian[/quote]

A PM to notaio may be your best option there.

Thanks brendangfc,
I have had a rummage about on the official notary sit, which is very informative, but I can't find any mention of the title of the law etc so will PM notaio.

Best wishes, Lesley & Brian

Hi
Can someone explain or tell me where I can what a cadastrale or whatever they call it on a property so I know ahead of time how to figure out the amount of property taxes on a property I am looking at. Estate agents don't really do a good job of explaining. Thanks!

Dear Lesley and Brian,
the reference that you are looking for is would appear to be ....
point 497 of the financial Law N. 266 of the 23rd of December 2005, that the deed be taxed based on the taxable income made up of the value of the property determined in accordance to the mechanism of the automatic evaluation as regards point 4 and 5 of article 52 of the Unified Code.

Hope this helps.

David
[url]www.tuscanydoc.com[/url]

[QUOTE=Lyndar]Hi
Can someone explain or tell me where I can what a cadastrale or whatever they call it on a property so I know ahead of time how to figure out the amount of property taxes on a property I am looking at. Estate agents don't really do a good job of explaining. Thanks![/QUOTE]

You can get an 'estratto' from the provincial Catasto, usually in the provincial capital of your region. The office is usually known as the 'Ufficio Del Territorio'. You need to know the name of the owner and the Comune in which they live, then they'll print you a copy of the planimetria (the land parcels appertaining to the house) and the Valore Catastale; the tax value.

If you can't get to the office yourself, a local geometra should be able to get the details for you; they have access to an online system.

Then again, if you're using an estate agent, it is very basic element of their job to provide this information. If they can't, they're not doing a good job.

You can also get the information you need from the "atto di provenienza", the owner's deed of sale. Ask for a photo-copy from the estate agent. In this deed you'll find a figure, preceded by the letters R.C.E. This is the rendita catastale. Alternatively, you can find out the rendita catastale by carrying out a "visura catastale" via an internet company such as Home Online [url]http://www.homeonline.it[/url] using either the name and address of the owner or the technical details of the property (mappale, foglio etc).

THe rendita catastale is used as a basis to calculate the valore catastale, or the notional value of the property.

To calculate the valore catastale, multiply the rendita catastale by 115.5 for a "prima casa" or primary residence, or by 126 for a second home.
For example: if the rendita catastale is 1,890.23, the basis used for taxation= is 1,890.23 x 115.5 = 218,321.57 for a primary residence, or 1,890.23 x 126 =
238,168.98 for a second home. (applies to categories A – B – C (apart from C/1 and A/10) - other coefficients apply for other categories.

This valore catastale is then used as a basis for calculating purchases taxes when buying your property.

That is the case if a private individual is buying from another private individual: if buying from a company, VAT is payable instead of registration taxes and is based on the purchase price, not the cadastral value.

You should always, however, refer to your notary for definitive quotes on the purchase taxes and other costs relevant to your situation.

Sarah

[QUOTE=Marc]...You need to know the name of the owner and the Comune in which they live, then they'll print you a copy of the planimetria (the land parcels appertaining to the house) and the Valore Catastale; the tax value...[/QUOTE]

Marc,

What they'll print you out is the mappa catastale - which as should be obvious is the map - and the visura catastale, a list of the parcels showing the tax value of each parcel and the total. The planimetria catastale (a plan of the rooms prepared by the surveyor who has registered the house as a civil, or 'urban' dwelling) is now subject to the law on privacy, and you'll need signed authorisation from one of the owners and a copy of an ID document to get one of these.

Giangiacomo

Life was easier before Italian extended its vocabulary to included the word "privacy".......luckily though most owners (or their geometras) will give you a photocopy of the planimetria catastale.
It is an informative drawing, if you know how to read it!!

[QUOTE=Giangiacomo]Marc,

What they'll print you out is the mappa catastale[/QUOTE]

Thanks Giangiacomo, I stand corrected!

Has anyone got any links with the Maremma/southern Tuscany., perhaps someone might be able to recommend an agent that deals with property here? We are particularly interested in finding out more about the area that starts at Monte Amiata, stretches south west to the coast below Grosetto, taking in the coastal bit to Orbetello then east to Bolsena.:)