2435 Sole Contract To Sell

If an agent advertises a house for, say €100,000, while another agent is offering it for €90,000, all the agent stands to make out of selling for the higher price, assuming it is worth that to someone, is 6% of €10,000, or €600 -the other €9,400 goes the vendor. Most agents I know would prefer not to risk losing a sale, or get a reputation for overpricing, for the sake of such a small sum. There is no legal way for an agent to hide the higher price from the vendor and pocket the €10,000 difference.

Its quite common for owners to list their house with an agent at an unrealistically high price then, when there is no interest, list it with others, maybe at a lower price, without telling the first agent. Similarly, they may forget which agents the house is listed with, decide to increase the price, and inform only some of them. Unlike America, there is no single portal or multiple listing system in Italy and there are literally hundreds of sites to trawl through, many of which don't even state prices, so comparison shopping is all but impossible.

Regrettably, many agents' listings are out-of-date and give wrong prices, or advertise houses sold a year or more ago. The most guilty ones (and they are usually not the so-called 'abusivi', by the way) seem to be the ones that advertise properties the length-and-breadth of Italy, who invest no effort in keeping track of the hundreds of properties which they procure from the listings of affiliated agents.

The best way to overcome this problem is to look for a house through a portal such as PrimeLocation.com or Rightmove. Their policy is to allow houses only to be listed through a single agent, but where one slips through the net, at least buyers can see the price disparity (if there is one) for themselves.

None is this is particularly relevant though, if you consider that unlike, for example, the price of clothing, the price you see a house advertised for is merely an invitation to negotiate. Whilst you might feel bad about going into an Armani shop and offering £900 for a £1,000 suit, you need have no hesitation about offering what you think a house is worth. Most agents will try to secure the highest possible price for a house - that's only natural - but you have the power to reduce the price.... to a point.

Thanks Marc,

Are you then saying this is a deliberate ploy, or a result of circumstance.

Your second paragraph implys deliberate, your third paragraph implys circumstance.

What you have done marc, is highlight exactly the anomaly. If it's the latter, then shouldn't the industry get a grip, sort it out themselves, clean up their own backyard. If it's the former, as i suspect most of us reading this forum think it is from all the previous postings sent in, then don't we ALL, buyers & sellers alike, have a duty to stop this. And if so, how?

From my postings on another thread, i have been sent by readers of this forum, (Thankyou), webpages of agents selling the same house, but at vastly different prices at what, by no stretch of the imagination,can be called a 'speculative price rise'. As this information is in the public domain, ie; on the respective agents webpages, then i see no reason NOT to post their e-mail addresses, WITH the relevant house on here. Does anyone feel this is NOT one way to gently prod/remind those agents of their obligation they have towards their responibilies & US?

Rob,

First of all, you’ll have to agree that the real estate market in Italy does not revolve around Brits although in some rural areas it seems to be that way it’s not.

What you outlined happens even for properties that are not marketed at all to an international market.
Traditionally sellers do not want to sign a sole mandate to an agent but they agree multi-mandates to several agencies.
The seller in this case will only pay the agent that will bring a successful buyer.

Sometimes the seller tells different agents different prices.
Sometimes after having a property on the market for one or two years the seller, if in need, lowers the price but will not communicate the new price to all the agents he/she listed with.
Sometimes the seller agree to pay the agent X% commission (usually 3%) but some other times he/she says I want make 100 from selling the house if you want commission you have to sell it at a higher price. The agent will list the property for 120/130 so to have room for negotiations.

Does each agent know? Probably not, I doubt they would be impressed knowing that their competitors are listing the same product for much less.

As Marc said an agent is not interested to a higher cut in a single deal, risking his/her reputation but to bring home more sales as possible so the agent is very very very happy when an owner agree to drop the price or agree to a large negotiation.

As to asking prices, I found the Italian way most perplexing, as prices are quote €XXX "trattabile" (negotiable). In other words the asking price is merely a guide, and the vendor/agent doesn't expect that anyone will offer that. From my experience of agents is that a figure of about 15-20% less than the "asking price" was the "real" asking price, which is where they were looking to cut a deal.

I suppose it is meant that everybody thinks that they got a good deal (?)

I paid 65% of the asking price, by the way. :)

Just under 65% of asking price for me too

Rob- I think that in most cases the explanation is laziness/inefficiency rather than deliberate overpricing.

I think that any agent would appreciate being alerted to a rival's site which is advertising one of their properties for a lower price. If they then fail to act, by all means name them publicly, though this Forum does not approve of such criticism. The problem is that once an agent has rectified the problem, the Forum post may loiter for years, doing a disproportionate amount of damage to their reputation.

Still, as they say, a fool and his money are easily parted. :)

A bit of research, especially now that we have the internet (how did we ever survive without it?) throws up exactly this kind of problem (not just in discussions like these).

When I started looking for a property in Abruzzo/Marche, one of the first "agencies" to come up was one mentioned many times and operating out of a certain airport. They refused to tell me where the properties that they were advertising were located (quite a critical detail, I think) simply saying that I would have to make a trip out to view. Needless to say I dropped them like a rock.

The reason it seems is that they are listing other (real or abusivo) agents properties, and of course they don't want you to go directly to them. Subsequent searches on the internet have thrown up properties that they list, at much lower prices with the real agents. And I had no intention of spending, as I have been told by people that I casually meet at the airport, 3-5 days hurlting 500 miles around the countryside looking at properties that the "agent" knew very little about.

It also seems to be a practice that some of these agents list properties that they haven't been instructed to by the "real" agents or the vendor, but knowing that the property is for sale, they try and rope in a buyer, with the intenion of then bargaining with the "real" agent or vendor.

But like I say, research costs nothing but time. Those people who don't have the time or nous to learn enough of the basics of the language to be able to "google translate" and contact the miriad agents and direct vendors that advertise on the web, really should think twice about buying a property in a foreign land.

There's my fifteen euro cents worth - see bloody price inflation :) :)

[QUOTE=Aliena]

Middlemen hike the prices up and if they catch an unsuspecting foreign buyer, they can make a huge profit as a 'small print finders fee'. The owner gets his property sold.. the 'middleman' gets his finders fee and the 'unsuspecting buyer' gets hammered due to lack of knowledge!

:) :)[/QUOTE]

As Charles points out in an earlier post, there is a flaw in the system that can allow this:

(Quote Charles)

As a matter of interest…potential buyers be aware that an agent can use what is called a Contratto per Persona da Nominare. This, in effect, enables the agent to draw up the preliminary contract but reserve the right to insert the final buyer’s name later on, although this has to be done within 3 days of the Atto Pubblico. This is perfectly legal in Italy, although it is speculative because there is no guarantee that the final buyer will actually go ahead.

This means the agent can buy for 10 and sell for 15. In these situations, you can inadvertently allow the agent to act on your behalf, but you are still buying at 15, whereas the agent makes a nice tidy profit. Obviously both vendor and buyer are kept in the dark, otherwise they could object. But because this process is legal, you need to be absolutely sure and you need to have unequivocal proof that the agent is committing any kind of fraud before seeking remedial action.

Thankyou for all your posts'.

Here comes the BUT;
It seems to me that we are forever going round in circles, we continually confirm to ourselves that there is a real problem out there. Whether it be the seller, the agent, the buyer.

I, for one would like to move this on to the next stage & try to find a way to show 'Whoever' that we are on to them. Enough, no more. If you can't walk in a straight line, you're likely to get knocked over.

It's the old, old story for me, if we all kick up enough dust, believe me, they'll get the message. Oh, just a thought, a start would be to recommend to anyone buying a house from an agent that the agent has the MANDATO. If not, walk away.

[QUOTE=greatscott] But because this process is legal, you need to be absolutely sure and you need to have unequivocal proof that the agent is committing any kind of fraud before seeking remedial action.[/QUOTE]

I strongly disagree: it is illegal if an agent acts in this way.

It is legal if a private investor sell an option to buy a property. But he cant be related to the agent looking after the negotiation.

[QUOTE=Wishful Thinker]

When I started looking for a property in Abruzzo/Marche, one of the first "agencies" to come up was one mentioned many times and operating out of a certain airport. They refused to tell me where the properties that they were advertising were located (quite a critical detail, I think) simply saying that I would have to make a trip out to view. Needless to say I dropped them like a rock.

The reason it seems is that they are listing other (real or abusivo) agents properties, and of course they don't want you to go directly to them. Subsequent searches on the internet have thrown up properties that they list, at much lower prices with the real agents. And I had no intention of spending, as I have been told by people that I casually meet at the airport, 3-5 days hurlting 500 miles around the countryside looking at properties that the "agent" knew very little about.

It also seems to be a practice that some of these agents list properties that they haven't been instructed to by the "real" agents or the vendor, but knowing that the property is for sale, they try and rope in a buyer, with the intenion of then bargaining with the "real" agent or vendor.

[/QUOTE]

I'm sure what you're saying about that company it's true but I would never give away the exact address of a property in my listing unless I have a sole mandate (which normally never happens in Italy) and the reasons are simply two: protection against competitors, protection against clients with ambition of becoming a competitor.

After I spend times and resources for the scouting of nice properties that I think have potential to my clients if I had to tell everybody the address I’m sure among the everybody there would be a number of competitors that they just want information about the property so to find the owner and contact him. Not only they want an agreement with him to list the property but they’ll use all sort of tricks to ruin all the negotiations I already have in place for the property and my relationship with the seller.

Oh by the way this it's always happened in Italy, I remember when I started to work in an estate agency, the first thing I was told on Saturday when you prepare the ads for the following week papers never never do a description of a property in you listing and use the real photo but take a photo from a property alike from you colleagues listings of another village so that the competitors would waste time trying to find the property on the territory.

Another reason is that you don’t want to lose money and resources facilitating a potential client become a competitor, how? Rember that in Italy people tend to be smart and think they can do everything by themselves. If a client rings up and ask for the address or exact location and you provide this piece of information do you know what happens?
The client go to visit the property by him/herself within a couple of days he/she finds out who’s the seller is and go and tell him I buy the property directly off you so we both save agencies fees. Although saving the agencies fee might facilitated to get burnt badly.

[QUOTE=Dave-ItalianChoice]I strongly disagree: it is illegal if an agent acts in this way.

It is legal if a private investor sell an option to buy a property. But he cant be related to the agent looking after the negotiation.[/QUOTE]

This is part of a quote by Charles Joseph. For complete context and any additional information, please look back at " How to deal with dubious estate agents in the forum" thread and re-read post #17.

If you have any disagreement with this information I think you need to reference his quote with your legal knowledge, and rebuke his information on that thread.

Davide,

I can't speak for the others, but for me your last post was a revelation. I think we might be getting somewhere!!....As Wishful Thinker implied, knowledge is power.

[QUOTE=greatscott]This is part of a quote by Charles Joseph. For complete context and any additional information, please look back at " How to deal with dubious estate agents in the forum" thread and re-read post #17.

If you have any disagreement with this information I think you need to reference his quote with your legal knowledge, and rebuke his information on that thread.[/QUOTE]

I think I already disagreed in that thread too.

I quote what you can read in every Chamber of Commerce web site and at the article 1759 of the Civil Code of Italy: an estate agent is bound to act as independent mediator.
If he is the seller he automatically loses the status of independent party and cannot act as estate agent in the deal.

Thanks for your response Dave. I agree with Rob that you have been wonderful about giving us some insight into what goes on with agents, go-betweens and others in the buying process.

I have a question about "go-betweens". You make the following quote about rules for an estate agent

(quote from Dave)"an estate agent is bound to act as independent mediator.
If he is the seller he automatically loses the status of independent party and cannot act as estate agent in the deal."

Does this rule apply to the "go-betweens"? What will stop them from the unethical (but not illegal) practice that Charles Joseph talks about?

Thank you again for your help

[QUOTE=greatscott]

Does this rule apply to the "go-betweens"? What will stop them from the unethical (but not illegal) practice that Charles Joseph talks about?

Thank you again for your help[/QUOTE]

"go-betweens" as far as I know it's not a profession that is coded by law.

Although if the "go-betweens" act like agents they're too acting against the law, i.e.if a person is dealing with them and he/she genuinely thinking that is dealing with an independent agent the "go-between" is against the law.

What will stop the practice of inflated prices because this is what is mostly all about.
I think simply the knowledge of the market: knowing the market value of a property.

If what you call "go-between" offer a proper and tangible service that is needed by a non-italian buyer and doing an honest job I think they deserve to be paid accordingly.
If "go-between" means having a web site and/or an office in some country and gather leads with the contacts information of potential buyer and passed them on to local agents in Italy and offering no other service than the referral I personally think they should not charge more than 0.5% but not as additional fee but taken out the 3% of the estate agent fees the clients pays. I do know several web sites and agencies in Britain that charge the client, but it's not well shown, up to 9% for a mere referral service.

Yes, actual sale price of other homes in the area to compare with. Some good changes this year with taxes not on the actual home sale price.

We'll see. We're taking notes ;)

Davide,

Going off thread slightly, how do you go about valuing anything from a wreck to a complete habitable home? Can you also give us some pointers that would help knowing that the asking price is somewhere near it's real value?
Land alone seems to vary tremendously in price.

[QUOTE=Rob]Davide,

Going off thread slightly, how do you go about valuing anything from a wreck to a complete habitable home? Can you also give us some pointers that would help knowing that the asking price is somewhere near it's real value?
Land alone seems to vary tremendously in price.[/QUOTE]

I was writing: please do not ask how to determine the value of a property in my previous post than I delete it, unfortunate decision :)

I think you need a book to answer that and everyone would want to add their own piece like the bible.

To keep it short these are the main six factors that determine the value of a property - well at least in my opinion:

1. The reason or the reasons behind the purchase
2. The size of the property and its fittings
3. Characteristics and fittings of the property
4. Location
5. Property conditions
6. Market trend

Usually people, unless buying for investment, will not take all these factors in account and buy purely following emotions. Emotions fell in the first point.

P.S. For fittings I mean stuff like garage, terrace, elevator, garden etc

[QUOTE=Dave-ItalianChoice]I'm sure what you're saying about that company it's true but I would never give away the exact address of a property in my listing unless I have a sole mandate (which normally never happens in Italy) and the reasons are simply two: protection against competitors, protection against clients with ambition of becoming a competitor.

After I spend times and resources for the scouting of nice properties that I think have potential to my clients if I had to tell everybody the address I’m sure among the everybody there would be a number of competitors that they just want information about the property so to find the owner and contact him. Not only they want an agreement with him to list the property but they’ll use all sort of tricks to ruin all the negotiations I already have in place for the property and my relationship with the seller.

Oh by the way this it's always happened in Italy, I remember when I started to work in an estate agency, the first thing I was told on Saturday when you prepare the ads for the following week papers never never do a description of a property in you listing and use the real photo but take a photo from a property alike from you colleagues listings of another village so that the competitors would waste time trying to find the property on the territory.

Another reason is that you don’t want to lose money and resources facilitating a potential client become a competitor, how? Rember that in Italy people tend to be smart and think they can do everything by themselves. If a client rings up and ask for the address or exact location and you provide this piece of information do you know what happens?
The client go to visit the property by him/herself within a couple of days he/she finds out who’s the seller is and go and tell him I buy the property directly off you so we both save agencies fees. Although saving the agencies fee might facilitated to get burnt badly.[/QUOTE]

OK Davide, that's fair. But I think that what we (non-Italians) are here all saying is that, by our standards, these are very dodgey practices indeed. We would never dream of going to see a car just a few miles down the road, based on the picture (and maybe description?) of a totatally different car!

So why should people think that they can lure people hundreds of miles to view property that is not properly advertised? In England that is ILLEGAL :)

Focus on the big "picture", I'm saying that if an agent tend not to reveal too much information about a property address and location sometimes is simply because he/she is protecting his/her job.
The photo switching I told earlier it was for very small photos on the papers in slightly pre-internet era, it would have made no difference on clients but it would keep away the competitors (for one or two weeks).
I highly doubt that agents switch photos on the web sites. Anyway the competition is high and an agent has all sorts of problems, considering the agent's point of view is worth to gain a better understanding of the market.

[quote=trullomartinafranca][quote=Frank]

No Frank, you just did!
Charles posted 12 days and 12 posts ago, it was a joke - see smiley's, winks and everyfink! :D ;) :cool:

I should know, I was there in Puglia and this was posted, as I have in many of my posts, with the purpose that we are trying to make light of Adriatica's heavy past posts on the subject. I do not recollect you being quite so upset when these serious posts were around ;)

Ok back to the thread, Welcome back Rob........see below[/quote]

[LEFT]As DaveJ so eloquently put it...

[I]"In fact when I went to Toronto to visit friends a few years ago, I nipped over to Montreal for a couple of days to visit the "Just For Laughs Museum" and it was shut - guess they must have lost their sense of humour"[/I]

[/LEFT]

Grazie Trulli,
What's the essence of the problem you are experiencing.(sorry trulli,i forgot) Was it like ours where many agents were trying to sell the same house & all wanting commission when we bought, or the amount being asked for it?

Hi Rob

I know you don't think much of the likes of me ;) but I'm with you on this one.

Anyway I am certainly trying to improve things in my small corner. My aim was and always has been to enable UK buyers to set off on an equal footing with Italian buyers. I am with you fully on the seeming injustice of varying prices for the same property: I've seen it only once in my area (when I think it was deliberate) but it made my blood boil. The offending party is a UK-targeted Italian property "portal" that claims the buyer doesn't have to pay anything extra other than the standard agent fee of 3% - obviously not the case as the owners of the property portal are clearly trying to cover their charges and much more in an inflated price. I agree with you totally that the practice stinks, and not only that but it IS ruining the market, as I have heard many estate agents grumble (believe it or not they are not all rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of a Brit invasion).

I had some clients recently who showed me a printout of the sort of property they wanted to look at, which they had found on the net. I immediately recognized the property and was able to inform the prospective buyers that the actual price, as set by the developer, was 70k euros less than advertised on the site she had found. She was even happier when I insisted on a visit to the Agenzia del Territorio before she even considered an offer, found out that the private garden as claimed by both the owner and the (fully licensed) Italian agent was NOT in fact private, but part of a condominium. Instead of making the offer we had a nice lunch and she went home.

I regularly inform estate agents in our area when I see the same property advertised for different prices. Working with so many agents and scouring the market on a daily basis I come across it all the time. When I tell the agent they are usually furious and immediately call the owner to ask them what they are playing at. Which brings me to the topic of your thread: l'esclusività.

Sole mandate really doesn't mean very much. Even the larger, wealthier agency franchises who insist on it (and even then they can usually only manage to insist on one with private sellers, not developers or construction companies, who in my area refuse point blank and the agent, if they want the chance to sell a prime piece of real estate, are forced to accept non-exclusivity) usually apply a contract whereby a penalty is paid if the property is sold within the term of the contract through a different agent or privately through the seller. Assuming a penalty of 1% or even 2-3%, if a different agent manages to sell at a higher price, the seller will be quite happy to pay the penalty if it is covered by the increase in price.

Also, different agents will valuate a property with vastly different prices. One agent may be confident of getting a buyer at a good price, or may have exaggerated the value of the property to the seller in order to get the contract to sell. This is common practice (I am purely speaking for my area of Northern Italy). Once they have the contract, they put the market on the property at an inflated price for a few weeks to keep the seller happy, then recommend a reduction due to lack of interest.

Another agent, however, may be more realistic and convince the seller that a quick sale will only be possible with a lower price. The seller, faced with several different valuations of the property and different promises of how the agent plans to get the sale, may decide to allow several agents to list the property at the price they think they can get, and “see what happens”.

As Marc said before, an estate agent doesn’t have much to gain by selling at an inflated price. In terms of commission, it means very little and I'm sure they would rather a quick and easy sale at a lower price.

So, who is the more dishonest? The estate agent who wants a quick, easy sale with minimum effort, and who therefore recommends a rock-bottom price? Or the estate agent who genuinely believes a property is worth more and recommends to the seller that they be patient and wait to receive what the property is worth in their eyes?

The fact is, very few sellers are willing to sign a sole mandate as it limits the marketing of their properties. Even if they do sign one, the seller will often advertise through other agents anyway, and these agents probably don't know another agent has the sole mandate.

Rob, if you were a seller, would YOU sign a sole mandate? Read the small print and you'll find that even if you sell to your Aunt Sue or someone you find yourself by word of mouth or your own advertising, you'll have to pay the agent a penalty of 1-3%. I'm sure you wouldn't be happy about that. Sole mandates might be more convenient for you as buyer, but when you come to sell I think you might change your mind.

I think it's very unlikely that we can resolve this problem Rob in our lifetime (unless you plan on running for office??) - and as someone pointed out earlier the market doesn't revolve around us Brits or other foreigners. The answer as you have said several times is caveat emptor, (always, in every country), and lots of homework. Even so...how much is a property worth? What someone is willing to pay for it, and what the seller is willing to sell it for. Punto e basta.

I get the impression that most people on this forum are buying in areas that Italians are fleeing from, which makes it difficult to value a property. I mean, look at it this way: a UK buyer, who earns something like 3 or 4 times the average salary of an Italian, comes over to Italy and wants to buy a property that few Italians want. Where we are there in the north is none of that “gold rush” that has been mentioned before (property too expensive and very much in demand by Italians) so I can’t speak from experience, but it seems to me that it is almost impossible to value a property that few Italians want but which a British buyer would fall over themselves for as it provides a property and lifestyle they would never be able to afford in the UK. Who’s exploiting who, here, exactly?

I agree that it is frustrating not getting enough information from agents before you visit the property in person but thanks to the typical Italian furbizia (cunning, wiliness etc etc), Italian buyers have been known to pull all sorts of tricks to get out of paying a commission, and consequently estate agents are very cagey about giving out even photos, let alone other detailed information, without taking you to see the property in person and thereby being protected in terms of their commission. Some will even ask you to sign something before they show you the property saying that you did indeed view xy property with them on a certain date.

Earlier in the thread, you asked the question: should go-betweens who deal with many agents check for their clients that they are paying the lowest price? Absolutely, YES. I consider that one of my most important jobs - to pass on my knowledge of the market and experience in the area to the client so they can get the best deal. An estate agent, on the other hand, has the seller to keep happy, too, and if that seller has several properties to sell they are likely to be biased towards the best deal for the seller, not the buyer. Before any client of mine makes an offer I check with every agent in the area if they have the property on their books and what they are advertising it as. If there is a lower price advertised, I would inform the buyer, then we’d go to the original agent we viewed with (not the second agent with the lowest price, that would be asking for trouble) and put in an offer for the other advertised price or lower if possible, telling the agent we've seen it advertised for less elsewhere and to get real. This never happens though, because I know the books of each agent virtually inside out so know which agent to approach before the client even comes near the property.

In short, what can someone do to avoid such situations (varied pricing)? Check out the market very thoroughly, and do homework on how Italian law protects agents' commissions. It seems to me that the relevant sections of the Italian Civil Code concerning mediation are there to protect said mediator's commission rather than protect the buyer!

Unfortunately Rob, as much as you want the Italian system to be a replica of the UK one, I don't think it's going to happen in the near future. Personally I think the UK system sounds like a nightmare, with sales falling through after months of wasted time, but maybe that's just me. The ‘blind’ Scottish one is even worse - I know someone who put in an offer on a house in Scotland that was 200k more than the “offers over” price and still didn’t get the property.

Buon fine settimana :)
Sarah

The whole site is down. They are probably stuffing more bargains onto it (they tend to list "new" properties several times a week - I know, if checked many times) ;)

These dodgey middlemen can in fact be very useful. If you see something that you like on their site, you can always then hunt around to find the real agent/vendor.

Have done it myself, - and found one house that was advertised by a middleman at €40,000, and by th vendor on one of the sell yourself sites (like [url]www.123case.it[/url] or something) at €25,000. The vendor was very helpful when I contacted, but unfortunately the house wasn't for me.

I'll say it again. A fool and his money.....;)

[LEFT]Rob,
Is there a happy ending to your story or has this put you off Italy altogether? [/LEFT]

Salve,
I've just returned from a wonderful 'settimana' of glorious sun-n-snow up at the house in the Gran Sasso national park, the skiing is fantastic.
Did many things, one of which was to take an estate agent's representative out to dinner, (The Tahiti fish restaurant along the seafront, roast fish, gorgeous),. I informed them of the dialogue that has passed on the forum regarding go-betweens & middlemen. Most enlightening was the info that followed.
I was informed that there is a certain practice amongst SOME agents in the Pescara area that help middlemen/go-betweens to sell houses. As you know, these people are NOT qualified & self employed and NOT paid commission by the estate agency. They forego this payment to the agency as this is their fee to the agency for the benefit of the agency 'selling' the house for them.
They, therefore, derive their 'Fee', from bumping the sale price up, with or without the sellers consent.
I'm finding this a voyage of discovery.

Your right Sarah, not only does it help to pick up if things are not as they should be but also prevents a lot of misunderstandings because the process is different.

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Aliena and Sarah [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[LEFT][COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]As if I would be too nervous to post!:D [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/LEFT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]First, we don’t spend my time trawling through every single real estate website, as this would be counterproductive. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Second, the vendor approached us to ask if we were interested in advertising his property. He didn’t want to give as a mandato. Fair enough! We valued the property and if anyone showed any interest, we would not only have given our own opinion, we would have suggested they get an independent valuation as well. As previously stated, the mere fact that a property is advertised at a certain price does not constitute a binding offer, it is simply an invitation to treat. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]On this occasion, the vendor didn’t tell us that he had it listed with 2 other agents and I only genuinely found out about this last week when someone very kindly sent me a pm with the links. I wanted to be open about it and so posted it on forum since we’ve got nothing to hide. I don’t think there is anything dishonest about this. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Certo…il mercato e poco sano and a vendor can easily get up in the morning and change his/her mind on price. Since this sort of thing happens a lot, I refuse to waste any time and energy in getting worked up over it. Anyone who has had dealings with us will know how we operate and I am more than happy to provide references at any time. Bring it on![/SIZE][/FONT]

[I][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Vocca chiusa e uocchio apierto non facette maje nesciuno desierto![/SIZE][/FONT][/I]

[LEFT]So glad that it's turning out ok for you and sure you will be very happy in Abruzzo (no need to be sorry, it looks very pretty and hope to visit in the future :)) Can't help with trailer though. Good luck and have fun! ;) [/LEFT]

These are working:

[url]http://www.paradisepossible.com/results_2_frames.asp?picture_name=PoloMain&PropertyID=594[/url]

[url]http://www.housearounditaly.com/houses/hzsp286/index.htm[/url]

[QUOTE=Rob]
Ask yourself WHY is the same house on 2 or more agents lists?. Obviously neither has the mandato.

IF THE AGENT DOES NOT HAVE THE MANDATO, OR THE SOLE CONTRACT TO SELL THEN WALK AWAY. IF HE SAYS HE HAS, GET IT IN WRITING.[/QUOTE]

Very few people commit with a sole mandate, usually a seller gives to several agents a NON exclusive mandate to sell the property, sometimes with different price agreements.
I'd do the same with these kind of properties that don’t have a distinguished Italian market. (I’d do the same a part for giving everyone the same price agreement)

The fact that an agent doesnt hold a sole mandate does not in any way de-legitimate the agent of doing a proper job.

So in this case maybe both have a proper non-exclusive mandate. The price difference...it's different.

Thanks Dee.

Hi Dave,

I am sure it does not but, it will close the loophole where less honest agents bump up the price hoping you NEVER see the other offer & pay100,000e more. Dave, would like to pay this extra, of course not. In other words Dave, if the seller has put it with 2 agents at 2 different prices then again, why, what does he gain? Can you answer this please. It suggests, at best, non-professionalism, at worst, fraud.

If he wants the higher price, then tell ONE agent that price. This thread is all about price differentials & the problems this brings. The system here in the UK is, as you know, normally sole agency. If it is multi-agency, then every agent knows who they are & quote the same price. There's no playing one off against the other. Reccommending SOLE AGENCY is ,i believe, a start to get the Italian house buying farce into some form of order & consistency & to get THEM to ask THEMSELVES why people are asking for it.

I feel also that it is an easy out just to say 'a fool & his money, etc.', simply because it is NOT a similar (UK) playing field. And i thought that this was what this forum is all about, to educate/advise people on those very differences. Like i have mentioned before; When i buy a pint of milk i PRESUME the white stuff IS milk. Then, when i get home i find out that i have bought gloss paint, then to be told i should have read the small print, should have known that as i bought it in Italy it was BOUND to be different.

Has anyone mentioned multiple listings and how to remove these once you have bought? We still see our property 'for sale' after 6 months!

Rob

I don't think it is always a question of honesty, although some examples are blatant.

We think of it in terms of shopping for anything. Certain stores charge more due to their higher profile (TV advertising) etc. and charge more for the items.

The same can be said of Italian agents, some higher profile ones with swish sites tend to have a higher price for the same property. Perhaps the seller thinks they due to their profile have more chance of selling than the smaller one.

Unfortunately this means you do have to shop around.

Dave (hates shopping in any form) & Dawn (female)

Rob,

What I am saying (I think), is that one can never do too much research. When you do, and I put in about 2 years casually, then you will know what the proper prices and set up is. If you research the area, both on the net and on your feet, then it would be hard to pay "€ 100,000" too much for a property because of the way it is marketed.

So if someone doesn't have the time or the nous to look into things properly, then they really don't have anyone to blame but themselves if they get ripped.

Price of course is only the first hurdle. The others are largely unforseeen (bankrupts, bad title, impending gas works etc etc) untill much later down the road.

and one site says its in Abruzzo, the other in Monsampolo del Tronto , which is in Marche. Perhaps Charles can enlighten us as its his neck of the woods? ;)

I've just thought of another reason why two agents might post different prices.

Let's say agent A, for example, likes to lay things on the table, no messing around. This agent doesn't do "trattabile". The price he advertises at is the price the seller wants, not a penny less. He has built up a reputation as a no-nonsense kind of guy and it works for him. People like that because they know at a glance what they can and cannot afford. Agent A markets to buyers in region 1.

Agent B, on the other hand, likes to work differently. In his area, punters love to negotiate and don't feel happy unless they've knocked 15% off the asking price. So Agent B markets the property at seller's minimum PLUS 15-25%, to allow for negotiation. Agent B markets to buyers in region 2.

Seller has chosen both agents because they each market the property in different areas in different ways, thereby maximising his chance of a sale. He decides to wait and see which agent brings the best offer.

Brit buyer comes across both sites and thinks it's a scam.

Possible?

[COLOR=black] Suggestion? Not all agents know the property has been advertised elsewhere. It would be very time consuming to search the net and locally BUT in the agents own interests, let alone the buyer maybe it would be a sensible practice.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]In rural areas I noticed that prices vary considerable, in fact even in [/COLOR][COLOR=black]England[/COLOR][COLOR=black] in 1995 when I had my mothers house valued, one agent stated £60,000 another £80,000. More recently my parents-in-law had valuations one £420,000 another £500,000. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]When we were viewing with various "agents" one guy took us to a Trullo and told us it was a very high price but the vendor would not budge even though he had had the Trullo on the market for years, he was in no hurry and would wait. The Trullo, although standing would have needed completely re building, electrics and cesspit etc all for 85,000 Euro. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]We then went on to view a total of 25 Trulli all needing 30,000 to 40,000 euro to rebuild apart from the one we bought and one other that still required work. The price range started at 30,000 euro for similar properties. So price difference of 55,000 euro plus building costs! Our Trullo completely renovated apart from a shower/bath asking price 60,000 euro we bought for 54.500 euro but we know through conversations with locals that if they had been buying the price would have been even lower.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]So what’s the point of me explaining all of this! [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]There is no true price guide[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Some vendors will hang out for top price[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Some properties are on the market for years so up goes the price[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]They do not worry how many agents have the property on their books [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]They get a buyer interested then up goes the price[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]and they take advantage of Brits with rose tinted specs.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Take us for instance, we went out to look, just look we said, no way will we buy on this trip! Then what happens, land in the sun, rose tinted specs firmly in place and put in an offer! As it happens we think our Trullo is a bargain but what would we have done if we hadn't found it? Would we have still got scooped up in the excitement and brought a tumbled down pile of stones to renovate at twice the cost? [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]For us sorting out the price was the least of our worries it was the c**p that we had to endure from the "Agent" proceeding the offer that has made us angry. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]But this is just our story and what we have learnt. Yes there will be agents that try their luck at hiking up the price too. Ours tried it on, in a small way, we were first told we would get it for 50,000 but then the mysterious sudden offer came in over night and upped it to 54,000 but this also happens in England too. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca]Ours tried it on, in a small way, we were first told we would get it for 50,000 but then the mysterious sudden offer came in over night and upped it to 54,000 but this also happens in England too. [/QUOTE]
That happens the world over - estate agents of the world unite! ;) Seriously the old chestnut of another interested buyer always pops up, and it's usually rubbish, but not always. I've seen UK buyers thinking they were terribly clever ignore a supposed competitor and lose the property they really loved. Fact is, every now and again you'll get a seller who DOES need to sell quickly. When that happens, you get a property priced at lower than the rest of the market (all those other sellers who are in no hurry) and those properties (the ones with a decent price and a seller who wants to sell quickly) ARE snapped up. Sounds like you came across one, trullomartinafranca. Just because the locals say they could have got it for cheaper doesn't make it so. They always say that IME.

I know the answer to this Wishful Thinker.

The Abruzzo site has a few listings in the Le Marche region, right over the boarder (Monsampolo is within miles). If you click the "back to houses for sale in Abruzzo" from the property page you'll get to the properties. Then if look down the houses for sale page you'll see a link to homes in Le Marche, and you'll find the this Le Marche property. The other site is just Le Marche properties.

[QUOTE=Aliena]
Could Italians get annoyed with all these daft Brits paying over the odds and putting the local market out of their reach...
[/QUOTE]Yes, absolutely, I've heard agents say it time and time again, and I hinted at it in my previous post. "Stanno rovinando il mercato"....being Welsh I think I should shut up, now ;-D

[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]Our problem is not exactly the same as yours but we suspect that the price was bumped up by middle woman/Agent from what the vendor was originally asking but as I said we accepted the price. [/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black][/COLOR] [/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]All I am trying to point out as you have on many threads what buyers should be aware of:[/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]1)Some middle men/woman imply via web sites and in their communication that they are qualified agents.[/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black][/COLOR][COLOR=black]2) That some of these middle men/woman do not know their arse from their elbow, let alone the complexities of Italian property purchase.[/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]3) Will justify their double commission by saying they give an enhanced service with extensive searches, yeah right![/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]4) Will say anything and do as little as possible to get the sale to go through.[/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]5) Will state quite clearly in emails that an important issue has been dealt with when in fact it hadn't.[/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]Our gripe is 9 months of misery and stress, that we had to go elsewhere to gain adequate information and they expect their extortionate commission! [/COLOR][/CENTER]

As I have tried to make it clear in previous posts not all middle men/woman or agents are dodgy. If it hadn't been for Charles who is totally conscientious we would never have got through this safely. [/LEFT]

[QUOTE=Rob]Salve Tutti,

Listed below are 2 webpages offering what looks like the same house. If not, then i unreservedly apologise to both agencies;

While i am on, can i say a personal thanks to DAVIDE for sharing, candidly, his inside knowledge on this thread. Knowledge, i think you will agree, will not be found in any 'Buying in Italy' help books.

[url]http://www.paradisepossible.com/results_2_frames.asp?picture_name=PoloMain&PropertyID=594[/url]

[url]http://www.housearounditaly.com/hous...p286/index.htm[/url]

Cordiali Saluti[/QUOTE]

Out of curiosity, I emailed both of these agents a couple of days ago, as if I were a potential buyer.

The latter replied to my e-mail promptly, saying....
[QUOTE]Thank you for your enquiry. We shall be delighted to help you find a suitable home in Abruzzo or part of the Marche. Property HZSP286 is situated in the Marche but unfortunately is no longer on the market. We can, however, arrange for you to view similar properties when you visit us.[/QUOTE]
....and the house is now removed from their web site.

I've had no reply so far from the other agents, who were advertising the house for €205,000.

[LEFT][/LEFT]
I am also aware that certain middlemen (operating in the UK) are claiming FIAIP membership and advertising this on their web sites. I have used my network of contacts in FIAIP to verify this and it is no surprise to discover that these peole are not actualy members, but appear to be advertising the fact to give people the impression that they belong to a professional body, not that these are the equivalent to the likes of the Law Society for example, which has stringent rules concerning professional conduct.

I have other pertinent information regarding certain middlemen and turnkey contracts but I cannot publish this information on an open Forum. But I am available to discuss via pm or e-mail.

Hi Rob, welcome back.

I can see how this practice might work where the price on the atto is under-declaired. Confusion rains with one price on the atto and all sorts of cheques for under €10k flying all round the room. But will it work if the actual sale price has to be declared? :)

Dave & Dawn,

Again, quite true, BUT what we are talking about here is either being overt or covert. When everything is up front fine, you know where you stand. I still get the feeling from your post that you are assuming a level playing field.

Wishful Thinker,

What i get from your post is that you are articulating your own experience, a position a lot further down the line from those new to this thread. Did you REALLY go into buying in Italy with a suspicious mind, or does your own personal experiences buying in Italy NOW colour your judgment & advice?

Do you not think that it is what we are conditioned to believe from our own experiences that set us up for the next experience?

[QUOTE=Rob]Salve Tutti,

Listed below are 2 webpages offering what looks like the same house. If not, then i unreservedly apologise to both agencies;

While i am on, can i say a personal thanks to DAVIDE for sharing, candidly, his inside knowledge on this thread. Knowledge, i think you will agree, will not be found in any 'Buying in Italy' help books.

[/QUOTE]

While doing this, can you make sure no one else is listing the same properties of my web site?
I'll give you a panettone at the end of the year. :P