341 Buying Property in Italy

Some valid points raised by Rob but I think we could be in danger of not only regurgitating the same old stuff, but also failing to satisfy everyone who is thinking about buying a house in Italy.

There are, after all, a number of books around that give the basics. But the reason why they do not go into any specific detail is because there is no such thing as a standard purchase. Each case must be treated according to its own merits and in the end I do believe that common sense must prevail.

I think this forum provides visitors with an excellent vehicle for exchanging information and offering tips on what to expect. However, it is up to people to decide what they want to do with this information. Each country has its own set of legal loopholes and regulations and it would be in everyone’s best interests to find out what they are before they begin or before they sign any legally binding documents. I was horrified to see one couple featured on “a house trapped under the sun” purchase a property via the Internet and pay a deposit without seeing it in the flesh or even bothering to check whether the property was clear of all potential snags.

Some observers would argue that the house buying process in Italy is straightforward. That may be if they are speaking from personal experience. However, if a national newspaper like Il Sole 24 Ore offers advice to Italians and warns them of potential pitfalls when buying properties in their own country, then surely non-Italians should take note and avoid the Panglossian optimism that can inevitably lead to disappointment.

Having said that however, getting on the house purchase bandwagon in Italy is not always full of problems. It can be one of the most pleasurable experiences of your life, providing you don’t throw caution out of the window.

A useful guide to what you should expect from your Estate Agent in Italy can be found below:
[url]http://www.worldproperties.com/CountryBusPractice.aspx[/url]
Remember that Estate Agents are predominantly in the business of marketing properties. Whilst this doesn't absolve them from responsibility for misrepresenting the homes they are selling, neither does it mean that they should know every technical and legal aspect of the homes (that job is for surveyors and solicitors), especially when the vendor may not have told them everything.
Before you view a house with any agent, the first two questions you should ask are whether they are registered with the Chamber of Commerce and how much commission they normally charge (you are free to negotiate this). If an estate agent's web site doesn't clearly state their terms of business and their address, run a mile!

[QUOTE=Rob]Ciao,

Having just read all the posts regarding pitfalls that some people have fallen into regarding the buying of property in Italy, the unexpected costs that some people have been surprised by, the taxes that some people have discovered, don't you think someone, somewhere, could write a general list, or route map, (apologies to George w.) as to the likely path someone purchasing in Italy will follow,(Italy Mag, good idea for a regular feature maybe, or even a pullout?).
I don't mean every nuance, every twist & turn, just a general list of things that one will run into, basics.

1, What follows when buying privately. Fees/Legalities
2, What follows when buying through an agent.
Fees/Legalities
3, Is the agent an ESTATE agent, or a VENDOR agent putting a buyer & a seller together. In which case how do i know whether the second example is legal. (Yes i know ask, my point is that if you do not know they exist in the first place then how do you know to ask)
3,Using an English/Italian solicitor. The costs incurred using either
4, OBVIOUS pitfalls that one should cover legally
5, The taxes i am likely to pay as an Italian house owner (The name of it,ICI, for example, not how much)
etc.,
etc.,

I get the feeling that every new/potential purchaser is going over ground that someone has been before, so why?
I also know that there are many books out there of which i have read many, but, is it me, or did i lose the plot after page 397. What i suppose i would like is a ''Dorling Kindersley'' type booklet to Italian Hose buying.

A good example for us was that we were never told & never read that we were to pay a fee to an Estate Agent to BUY a house, stupid, i know. We took the english example when budgeting that only the seller pays a commission. We were told that if we take out residency then the purchase tax we pay would be substantially lower than if it were a second, or luxury home. Then we were informed that Berlusconis government had changed the rules from the 1st August 2004 and that every non Italian purchaser of houses would pay the 7% luxury tax. (Has this been challenged in Brussels?). We have a small '' summer house'' on the land that we have with electricity & water. We were never told that we would have to pay an extra 2% tax as a second house even though it is 1ROOM. Etc.

Am i being naive here, or is it time for my medicine.
Regards
Rob[/QUOTE]
Hello, I am native Italian, I moved to Italy two years ago, repented, came back 6 months ago , and would not suggest to anybody to move there now: they are in recession and unemployment is very high. Buying houses: estate agents collect 3% of the value from vendors and 3% from sellers. You will pay 10% tax on the house unless it is your first house (you MUST be a resident within 1 year). If you sell the house within 5 years, however, you WILL have to give back the 7% of tax you avoided to the Goverment. So think twice before you venture in Italy, it is dangerously expensive to buy, restore and sell, and speculation work in House doctor style does not exist. A property can be on sale for years and you cannot get rid of it. Also if you still want to buy, remember that some vendors, once they see that you are interested, RAISE the price of the property! Another point is that you must have a local surveyor (geometra) to view the house and its documents well before completion. He will tell you of any problem. We did not do it and when we put the house on sale we discovered that the boundaries with the neighbour were wrong according to catasto, so our buyer fled with all the money because he feared bureaucracy problems, and we have suffered enormous stress to fix those problems. Good luck , you will need lots of it mate!
Franz Sidney

[QUOTE=Charles Joseph]Having said that however, getting on the house purchase bandwagon in Italy is not always full of problems. It can be one of the most pleasurable experiences of your life, providing you don’t throw caution out of the window.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, and perhaps it's also sensible to think differently before trying to buy a house in Italy. In rural areas few homes change hands via estate agents. Farmers and farm workers are too wily and too underpaid to want to hand large amounts of cash to an agent who provides a service that isn't strictly necessary given Italy's legal framework.

It's a good idea to visit an area *by yourself* before even thinking about buying. Get to know where you want to be. For example that mountain house may look inviting in August, but have you seen the village in January? Are you capable of driving with snow chains fitted? How about in spring, what happens when the snow melts (be particularly careful about that if intending to buy a house in a valley). Go to the local bar, chat with locals, make friends. If you're lucky someone may know someone who wants to sell but who hasn't advertised the property elsewhere.

A Notaio and a lawyer between them can do everything the estate agent would except to find the property for you, and TBH most people are capable of finding a home if they put their minds to it.

Franz,
As a native Italian, how did you get a German name like Franz?

Lotaresco, what you say is very true but only realistic if you speak Italian. A lot of people when they buy their house do not and so must rely on English-speaking estate agents. ;)

... also here geometras sell houses and also charge owners and buyers the three per cent..... especially in rural areas.... they are not stricly legally allowed to do house sells....the only person that is is a registered estate agent......

they also go thru the process of helping in all legal documents ,requirements and give often very good local advice.....

even if the three per cent is not charged it will have been fixed into the price anyway.... which is why in general you do not pay the geometra at the compromesso stage for the work....becuse it is either already calculated in or comes out of the three per cent fee..... anyone thinking they have got round this might well be deluding themselves

I disagree with you, Adriatica; Geometras are entitled, by virtue of their professional qualifications, to sell properties. In fact, some people would argue that they are more qualified than Estate Agents!
And regarding the the old issue of the 3% being fixed into the price, remember, as a buyer you are free to offer as much or as little as you think the house is worth. In the end, the price is determined by the market, not by what's printed on the page.

[QUOTE=Penny]Lotaresco, what you say is very true but only realistic if you speak Italian. A lot of people when they buy their house do not and so must rely on English-speaking estate agents. ;)[/QUOTE]

Hmm, well, we bought our place being unableto speak Italian in mucht he way we described. I speak fluent German and most people in the area tend to know some English, some German, and are willing to bring in friends and relatives who can speak various languages to help out.

We tend to speak exclusively Italian in Italy nowadays but there's still a gap between the Italian we learned at night school and by talking to friends in cities and out local dialect.

I agree language can be a problem but I'm bemused by English people who want to buy a home abroad but don't want to assimilate.

I don't know where you live but there were very few people speaking English in this area when we bought our house. This has changed since the comune's started providing free English lessons and more Enlish people have bought houses here. We also now speak Italian (2 years on).

It is not a question of assimilating but what you are capable of at the time.

[QUOTE=Penny]I don't know where you live but there were very few people speaking English in this area when we bought our house. This has changed since the comune's started providing free English lessons and more Enlish people have bought houses here. We also now speak Italian (2 years on).

It is not a question of assimilating but what you are capable of at the time.[/QUOTE]

We live just south of you, near Teramo, if anything the number of English speakers in this area was (and remains) fewer than in Marche, but as I said in the previous post there's always some way around it. Many Italians particularly from Marche and Abruzzo have worked abroad. They tend to have the ability to speak some French, German, English. Not fluently, but enough for communication. If they can't there's usually someone around who can.

And I sort of disagree about the assimilating bit, if you want to live somewhere surely the sequence is get to know the place then buy, not rush in, buy then wonder what the hell to do with what you bought?

marc... i think you might well find geometras despite selling houses are not legally allowed to unless they have also qualified as agents.... might well be wrong on this and i am sure mr joseph.... who always likes to put me right.... and i use his postings often as reference points so i am not being sarcastic here will help me out on this......

as regards estate agent qualifications.... i also think you will find that a geometra qualifies with just about a high school certificate and not much more.... an estate agent has to do a proffesional course and learn most of the law pertaining to property that a geometra would know..... they also have to pass an exam on this ...both written and oral which is set via the chamber of commerce..... i know several geometras looking for estate agents as partners so that they can legally sell houses.... they then have to register with the chamber of commerce and are bound then by rules associated with their proffesion

Selling properties in Italy comes under the general category of mediazione. Over recent years the legislation has changed and anyone operating as un agente immobiliare or mediatore is bound by certain rules and regulations which are set by law. Aspiring agents must take and pass an exam before becoming iscritti nel ruolo and operating in the business.

This does not stop anyone from acting as an “estate agent” however. In fact, there are many people masquerading as estate agents and even Geometra’s when they clearly do not possess the proper qualifications to do so. But the Civil Code spells out exactly who is entitled to practice as an agent and what their responsibilities are. Moreover, the law clearly stipulates that anyone practicing as an agent or mediatore without being iscritto is not entitled to receive any commissions.

Another interesting facet is that the law is very clear when it comes to conflict of interest. This means that professionals working full time in the public sector (geomtera, engineers or architects employed by the local comune for example) cannot operate as mediatori.

Quote: I disagree with you, Adriatica; Geometras are entitled, by virtue of their professional qualifications, to sell properties. In fact, some people would argue that they are more qualified than Estate Agents!

Adriatica has a valid point. Geometra’s are in fact, not entitled by virtue of their qualifications to operate as real estate agents. They would still have to pass the exam and become iscritti nel ruolo. That does not mean to say he/she cannot sell privately…but without being iscritti nel ruolo…they cannot collect a commission. They can still get around this, however, by issuing an invoice for technical consultancy services. A good way to check whether you are dealing with an abusivo or not is to insert a clause in the preliminary contract naming the “agent”, the amount of commission agreed and the date when it will be paid. Abusivi will soon start getting hot under the collar and start making a fuss because they know that this provides recorded evidence of an illegal transaction.

Legge 39/1989 stipulates that:

“La provvigione spetta soltanto agli agenti di affair in mediazione iscritti nel ruolo. Pertanto, chi esercita l’attività abusivamente ed ha indebitamente percepito la provvigione è tenuto a restituirla.” Translated this says that only agents iscritti nel ruolo can expect commissions. Those who practice illegally are obliged by law to refund any commissions that they have received.

A preliminary contract (more commonly known as the compromesso) is a powerful tool, providing the buyer takes the necessary precautions in using it properly and having it drafted to protect his/her legal position. This is why I prefer my clients to skip the proposta d’acquisto irrevocabile (which binds the buyer until the vendor accepts it) if they are really serious about buying and go straight to the preliminary contract.

Quote: Indeed, and perhaps it's also sensible to think differently before trying to buy a house in Italy. In rural areas few homes change hands via estate agents. Farmers and farm workers are too wily and too underpaid to want to hand large amounts of cash to an agent who provides a service that isn't strictly necessary given Italy's legal framework.

This is absolute nonsense. Wily farmers are more than capable of taking advantage of unsuspecting foreigners. If they see that demand is up, believe me they will try it on. Moreover, in many rural areas, farmers speak in the local dialect so it is best to have someone local to seek out and negotiate. Don’t be fooled by a farmer’s simple appearance and charming manner. Most contadini far wealthier than you would imagine!

Quote: A Notaio and a lawyer between them can do everything the estate agent would except to find the property for you, and TBH most people are capable of finding a home if they put their minds to it.

A Notaio has to maintain complete impartiality at all times. They are public officials and not estate agents. A Notaio will not provide advice or guidance on the merits of your own specific contract or purchase. If you want all your initial and final searches carried out before buying (a recommended practice) then it is best to use the services of a solicitor. If you are in a hurry then make your purchase conditional. For example, your preliminary contract will only become effective if the results of all searches prove satisfactory.

Most people may be capable of finding a property if they put their minds to it, but very few people are able to discover, let alone handle any potential problems. It has been said before that common sense must prevail. If in doubt, then work with professionals…there are enough of us out there to ensure that you receive the service you are entitled to.

[QUOTE=Charles Joseph]Quote: Indeed, and perhaps it's also sensible to think differently before trying to buy a house in Italy. In rural areas few homes change hands via estate agents. Farmers and farm workers are too wily and too underpaid to want to hand large amounts of cash to an agent who provides a service that isn't strictly necessary given Italy's legal framework.

This is absolute nonsense. Wily farmers are more than capable of taking advantage of unsuspecting foreigners. If they see that demand is up, believe me they will try it on. Moreover, in many rural areas, farmers speak in the local dialect so it is best to have someone local to seek out and negotiate. Don’t be fooled by a farmer’s simple appearance and charming manner. Most contadini far wealthier than you would imagine![/QUOTE]

It's not absolute nonsense Charles, it's true. I've lived in the province for 12 years now and although local trade in property and land is relatively brisk, agents have been involved in very few of the deals. As I said, farmers and farm hands don't want to pay large amounts to agents because they are poorly paid.

What I suspect you meant to say is that buying direct without an agent may be inadvisable for many Brits. Sure, if you can't cope with the process for any reason then it is completely and utterly inadvisable to embark upon it.

As to many contadini being wealthier than you imagine, yes it's true. Many contadini are extremely wealthy. My best friends in Italy fall into this category owning huge swathes of land around my own small farm. However although they are wealthy they are also poorly paid, i.e. their wealth is not in cash, it is in capital assets. Contadini recognise the value of land holdings and don't necessarily want to part with their birthright for a mess of potage. They will hang onto property. However sometimes circumstances such as a need for ready cash, or an inheritance problem make it necessary to dispose of land or buildings. When this happens, the cash-poor nature of Italian rural life means that those people don't want to give a large fraction of the sale price to an agent.

I've already alluded to problems with dialect in other posts and I don't see the need to repetetively qualify each statement with a "however".

[QUOTE=Charles Joseph]
Adriatica has a valid point. Geometra’s are in fact, not entitled by virtue of their qualifications to operate as real estate agents. [/QUOTE]

At the risk of being boring and splitting hairs, I still refute Adriatica's and the Praetor's comments about Geometra's suitability to be Estate Agents.
For one thing, people with relevant commercial or legal qualifications are exempt from the requirement to take the exam, and for another, the training course for unqualified candidates prior to taking that exam is just 80 hours, only 70% of which have to be attended.
I'm not gunning for Estate Agents (many of whom are my clients), I'm just saying that I know many diligent and and honest Geometras and Geologists who are extremely capable of selling houses, after having studied for years to acheive their qualifications. I think they should be given some credit for that.
After all, who is the first person every Estate Agent advises their client to consult in order to verify whether the house they propose to buy is legitimate? A Geometra!

I suspect that the hidden sub-text to Charles's message is that he secretly resents professional people muscling-in on the Estate Agency business. That would be a bit like a Registered Nurse complaining that a Surgeon was not qualified to change a patient's bandages.

[QUOTE=Marc]At the risk of being boring and splitting hairs, I still refute Adriatica's and the Praetor's comments about Geometra's suitability to be Estate Agents.
For one thing, people with relevant commercial or legal qualifications are exempt from the requirement to take the exam, and for another, the training course for unqualified candidates prior to taking that exam is just 80 hours, only 70% of which have to be attended.
I'm not gunning for Estate Agents (many of whom are my clients), I'm just saying that I know many diligent and and honest Geometras and Geologists who are extremely capable of selling houses, after having studied for years to acheive their qualifications. I think they should be given some credit for that.
After all, who is the first person every Estate Agent advises their client to consult in order to verify whether the house they propose to buy is legitimate? A Geometra!

I suspect that the hidden sub-text to Charles's message is that he secretly resents professional people muscling-in on the Estate Agency business. That would be a bit like a Registered Nurse complaining that a Surgeon was not qualified to change a patient's bandages.[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree with you Marc on two main counts.

First, I am not saying that honest and diligent Geometra’s are not capable of selling properties. What I am saying is that it doesn’t matter whether you have the appropriate professional qualifications, you still need to be iscritto. What I do object to is people masquerading as professionals! So to take your analogy of the nurse complaining about a surgeon…if the person is masquerading as a surgeon, thereby exposing the patient to unnecessary risk…then I think I would be totally justified in complaining!

Second, your statement that people with relevant commercial or legal qualifications are exempt from the requirement to take the exam is incorrect. This was true some 15 years ago when a geometra, ingeniere, avvocato, ragioniere or architetto (or anyone with or without a degree for that matter) could practice as real estate agents. This all changed with Legge 39/1989. I have a very good friend in Piemonte who is a Geometra. He has a successful property development and real estate business. But he too has to be iscritto nel ruolo in order to sell real estate.

Moreover, a Geometra is not the always the first person an estate agent will turn to. Some will consult an architect, structural engineer, geologist or lawyer, depending on the nature of the issue to be tackled.

As to your assertion about me “secretly” resenting “professional people muscling in on the Estate Agency business”…well again you are totally incorrect. I actually hold professional qualifications from both UK and Italian Universities myself…but that neither stops me from consulting with partners or colleagues who have more experience in specialist fields when I need their help, nor does it prevent me from recommending the services of those people whose professional qualifications, capability, experience and integrity I respect and trust.

In actual fact, I have already done so to some members of forum, something that I would not do if I were to harbour any resentment as you otherwise claim. Your suspicions are therefore, totally unfounded.

We are all free to express our opinions of course, but in the interests of accuracy, perhaps you should check your facts before making such accusatory comments concerning the probity of my message.

Steve…you have a point and I concede. It is sometimes easy to forget that the situation can be different in other regions. Equally though, what you are experiencing where you live does not mean to say it is happening elsewhere. I spent many months looking for a property to buy in Tuscany and the majority of vendors I met were all too keen on trying it on. I pretended not to understand Italian.

Tuscan contadini (as well as those in the Marche) may spend their time working the land from dawn to dusk but they are very shrewd cookies. I am fortunate in that being bi-lingual I was also able to check everything for myself beforehand.

[QUOTE=Charles Joseph]
I actually hold professional qualifications from both UK and Italian Universities myself…but that neither stops me from consulting with partners or colleagues who have more experience in specialist fields when I need their help, nor does it prevent me from recommending the services of those people whose professional qualifications, capability, experience and integrity I respect and trust.
[/QUOTE]

I bet it doesn't Charles, when you stand to gain 3% buyers' commission on the value of homes you sell by making such referrals! What I should have accused you of is not of resenting their expertise, but resenting them for treating directly with the public at the risk of you, as an Estate Agent, losing your fee.

My point was that Agents have no right to try to exclude qualified people who are already inscribed in other relevant professional institutions by ring-fencing their own area of activity with dubious claims to exclusivity.

Despite my sniping at you, I do give you credit for offering informative and reliable advice freely here on the Forum. I'm not trying to denegrate you or your profession, merely trying to establish that there there may be an element of self-interest in your remarks on this particular thread.

Hallo, I visited the "latoca" web site and it gives quite correct informations.
It's not correct the notary fee, that is not 2/3% of the purchase price.
I give you some examples of the fees here in Marche
price €. 110.000,00 - fee €. 1200/1300
price €. 220.000,00 - fee €. 1400/1500
price €. 440.000,00 - fee €. 1700/1800

As you can see it's not a fixed percentage and it doesn't double if the price doubles

What would the fee be for 55.000,00 euro? Just an example.

Thanks

[QUOTE=Marc]I bet it doesn't Charles, when you stand to gain 3% buyers' commission on the value of homes you sell by making such referrals! What I should have accused you of is not of resenting their expertise, but resenting them for treating directly with the public at the risk of you, as an Estate Agent, losing your fee.

My point was that Agents have no right to try to exclude qualified people who are already inscribed in other relevant professional institutions by ring-fencing their own area of activity with dubious claims to exclusivity.

Despite my sniping at you, I do give you credit for offering informative and reliable advice freely here on the Forum. I'm not trying to denegrate you or your profession, merely trying to establish that there there may be an element of self-interest in your remarks on this particular thread.[/QUOTE]

Our company consists of an architect with many years of experience, professional engineers and a properly registered building company. In fact, we design, build/renovate and project manage.

We obtained the relevant licence so that we could sell properties legally. We felt that by having relevant and wide ranging expertise and skills (which also include legal and commercial skills), and knowing a lot more about buildings and legislation than say your average estate agent, we would be better positioned to provide a reliable, competent and professional level of service.

I reiterate my earlier point. I do not resent qualified people from operating in the sector. Moreover, my remarks have nothing to do with ring fencing an area of activity. It just happens to be a legal requirement that in order to sell properties (and to receive commissions) in Italy (it doesn’t matter who you are) you still have to be iscritto nel ruolo (look up legge 39/1989). However, this alone is no guarantee. You still need to posses a high level of professional integrity.

I think you will find that in another thread I made a point of saying that I would like to see some reforms. Herein lies the problem. There are many gaps and there is no effectual system of governance. This is evident by the unattractive behaviour of so many companies (and individuals) operating in the sector.

As far as fees are concerned, financial considerations are deeply rooted in the economics of business and commerce and I would consider it rather naïve of you if you were to believe otherwise.

Yes, there is an element of self-interest in what I say. It matters to me that people coming to Italy to buy properties do so with a positive feeling, knowing that they will receive the proper guidance and professional advice before committing themselves and handing over substantial amounts of money.

i think the 3 % is generally irelevant.... if you consider that most people are buying here that have cashed in on unearned wealth in the uk... and 3 % of a much lower base price is good value....,or so it would seem to me

if you add in the complications of selling to a foreign buyer i regard it as top value... a sale to an italian...who understands the language and is more or less current with the house selling buying process is much simpler... add in the suspicions often generated by a foreign buyer that they are being ripped off on just about everything.... sometimes true... then it gets even more difficult

in a system that has been established here now for quite a while i see no reason to complain of the fact that you have to have the relevant qualification to sell houses... my wife a registered bookeeeper a few years ago could have also registered to sell houses.... because of her qualification.... but not now and not for some time... she has to take the relevant course which is part of the italian system... like it or not.....

of mr josephs postings i would say that i have often used them as quite literally the clearest examples of the process of buying in italy.... and would support his comments in general regarding the process and legislation ...not so sure about his choice of arae.... but then i am biased... however i think that he declares openly his interests but his views often extend beyond them..... i have seen other postings on here.... most recently from a certain site with a member in scotland that to me have no sound basis at all in what i would call a forum of discussion.... i think if there are complaints to be made about self interest there are others that should be first in line...

i think though that as a member of the forum his contributions have helped me to understand and i am sure others the difficult system here.... if he earns his 3 % from a few people that have been in contact via the site i would say good on him...... it is all part of life...

i think marc you will find you are entirely mis informed about who can and cannot sell houses here.... and i would suggest if you want to add into a discussion on who is legally entitled to do so you might read the relevant laws... it might help... agents do indeed have the right to be the only ones to sell houses for commisions ... and anyone else that wants to do so also has the right to take the course and register... its the law here... nothing at all to do with mr joseph...

usually i like to take much more of an opposing view on things.... however i feel that your staements are misleading as regards self interest and ring fencing and your statement regarding a dubious practice can only apply to those who sell houses without taking the relevant exam....

.... however if you want dubious you will find that in general to pass the exam a system of reccomendation is prevalent in several areas of italy and that the exam is run on different levels of difficulty in various regions to protect any newcomers from competing.... eg... in the marche...milan... caserta you take the exam of 20 questions and i hour to complete it....
i know of areas where it is forty quetsions and twenty minutes to complete it.... i would consider that dubious and part of a system here where they can make honest people who study hard almost despair... they also have it tied up so that you have to be resident where you take te exam... so no use applying to take it in an area you do not live in....

as a registered and qualified estate agent i would be interested in comments from mr joseph on this dubious system... in a sense i believ this is what leads to many of the problems and is indeed wher ring fencing applies.... and maybe why a few geometras... or others entitled before to sell houses do not apply to take the exam... and indeed reduces the standing of that exam by the shady practices of various chambers of commerce here in italy that consider themselves above the normal human right laws of europe.... and pass forward people into the house selling bussiness not on knowledge but on who they know and if other members on the chamber of commerce ... obviously including estate agents want anyone else in competition... maybe that is why there are so many companies selling houses here that offer bad and indeed wrong advice to prospective buyers

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca]What would the fee be for 55.000,00 euro? Just an example.

Thanks[/QUOTE]

about €. 900,00/1000,

All the fees I indicated could increase (but no more than 200/300 €.) if the contract needs special work, i.e. complicate enquiries about property etc etc., but normally the fee are the ones I wrote.

John…

You highlight some important issues and unanswered questions here.

Previously, Marc was accusing me of resenting the involvement of Geometra’s or other qualified people. He even went on to say that it was a little like being a state registered nurse complaining about a surgeon bandaging a patient. My reply was that if a person masquerades as a surgeon, then of course I would object.

Equally, simply possessing a law degree would not automatically entitle us to practice law and charge fees for example. Further professional training would be required. Moreover, we would need continuous professional development in order to guarantee that we were operated at the leading edge of our profession.

But it goes beyond this. The problem is that although there are some people operating as mediatori and agenti etc without the relevant licence do so, it is alarming to note the presence of some licensed agents who are incapable of providing a proper service. By this I mean that their knowledge of current legislation is limited, that they produce contractual documents that are not worth the paper they are written on, and that they appear evasive whenever a buyer wants clarification of issues.

Whenever people are buying properties, attention must be directed to the nature of the contractual obligations that both parties enter into. Buying a house in Italy may have something of a romantic, mysterious aura about it. It may even feel eminently curious or cabalistic perhaps. But the process is far from trivial. It can be complex and confusing, especially to those of you who are unfamiliar with the system.

The main problem is that Italians operate in a different environment to one we are accustomed to back home and although some of the formalities may appear to be similar, the legal system in Italy is really very different to ours.

Italian law consists of a legal code (codice civile and codice penale), which is a systematic collection of laws that have been arranged to avoid inconsistency and overlapping. English law of contract does not generally require a contract to be in any particular form or for any particular formalities to be observed in the execution thereof. This is in contrast to Italian jurisdiction where writing and notarisation is the norm.

A proposta d’acquisto or preliminary contracts embody clear and unequivocal principles and it is alarming to note how many times people sign things without knowing the full consequences. It is even more alarming to see some agents citing articles of the civil code on contractual documents without fully explaining what they mean to non-Italians.

I wish to make it very clear that not all real estate agents are like this.

The initial point for your discussion, John, is the somewhat dubious nature of the system in Italy. My personal experience stems from having previously worked in both the aviation and defence industries. One of the most interesting and characteristic features of both Italian private and public sector life is the high propensity for organisations to be tied to various political factions, internal as well as external. The resultant levels of bureaucracy, protectionism, nepotism, clientelism and widespread corruption are indeed mind blowing.

Structural deficits and weaknesses such as those highlighted above seem to be critical influencers in most activities, affecting the conduct and performance of many organisations (irrespective of what they do) in general. Some would argue that they do not genetically condition the nature of Italy’s cultural and political system. I’m not so sure. But I can say that in having travelled to and worked in many places throughout my working life I’ve yet to find a country that is without structural deficits, weaknesses or problems.

I agree that the system here is dubious and that reforms are necessary. We need to move forward from the antiquated and primitive practices and systems. A completely new approach is essential to Italy’s long-term economic viability and prosperity.

But the glass is not half empty. However grim the picture may be, it has to be counterbalanced by some of the good things that Italy has to offer.

[QUOTE=Marc]
I suspect that the hidden sub-text to Charles's message is that he secretly resents professional people muscling-in on the Estate Agency business. That would be a bit like a Registered Nurse complaining that a Surgeon was not qualified to change a patient's bandages.[/QUOTE]

We think your suspicions could not be further from the truth. Since finding this forum, Charles has given us understanding and guidance including other professionals without any gain to himself apart from the fact that it does matter to him. “that people coming to Italy to buy properties do so with a positive feeling, knowing that they will receive the proper guidance and professional advice before committing themselves and handing over substantial amounts of money”.

As Adriatica has said we are the foreign buyer that doesn’t understand the language or the buying process and yes we are very very suspicious.

What Charles is pointing out is that there are some in Italy who sell property but do not always have the adequate qualification, skill or incentive to help the foreign buyer to understand exactly what they are doing. A bit like a Registered Nurse complaining that a Surgeon was not qualified to change a patient's bandages because even if the surgeon is qualified there are many who do not have the skill to change a bandage because it would depend very much on what the bandage was for! Trust me I am a Registered Nurse.

As for all the genuine agents/geomatras who sell property giving the foreign buyer support from beginning to end, we agree with Adriatica that 3% is very good value.