In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Today promises to be interesting as big Luciano (Moggi not Pavarotti) will be called to "explain himself"!!!!
Last night he did a wonderful job at" playing the victim", the sad face of a broken man and all the rest.Almost had me in tears--------of anger.
I don't for one minute think he is alone in this entire affair and reckon that a whole can of worms is about to have the lid taken off in just over an hours time.
As an avid fan of Italian football (Parma) , it is sad to see sport fall into such a period of scandal.
Unfortunately, it has been on the cards for some time. Just wonder how many other European clubs will come to the fore!!!!
:(
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
About time the seven sisters got found out - it has gone to long
Though the smaller teams are also responsible for capitualing to often
Italian football will come out of this stronger and better
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
There has been corruption in Italy for many years Milan and Lazio were sent down in the 80's for match fixing. Juve should have the same punishment aswell!
Calciopoli trio: We’re innocent
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 07/07/2006 - 08:44In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Milan, Lazio and Fiorentina have gone on the defensive in the Calciopoli trial by insisting they have no case to answer.
While Juventus this week hinted that they would accept a form of demotion should they be found guilty of sporting fraud, the other three clubs on trial have opted to go down another road.
Lawyers representing the trio have told the sporting tribunal that they should be cleared of all the allegations thrown at them, charges which could see them relegated to Serie B.
Lead prosecutor Stefano Palazzi this week called for Juve to be placed in Serie C with a six-point penalty, while he told the court that Milan, Lazio and Fiorentina deserve to be thrown into the Second Division with a points penalty.
That request has been met with astonishment by the clubs who are suspected of trying to influence the results of matches, with the aid of referees and their assistants, during the 2004-05 campaign.
“Lazio are innocent,” stated capital lawyer Gian Michele Gentile. “We have nothing to admit. Juventus have chosen to do it like that, but we at Lazio have nothing to hide.”
Lazio chief Claudio Lotito, who is one of 25 individuals also indicted, pleaded his innocence and threatened to turn to the civil courts if he was unsatisfied with the verdict that could be delivered on Monday.
Fiorentina have also asked to be cleared and have looked to prove their innocence by providing a dossier to the court with the aim of winning their case.
Milan have been implicated as a result of some intercepted phone calls by ex-Rossoneri official Leonardo Meani with regard to the appointments of linesmen.
[URL="http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/jul7a.html"]Click Here For The Full story[/URL]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Milan Havnt Done Anything Wrong Why Wont The Judges Listen! :(
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[LEFT][quote=Forza Milano]Milan Havnt Done Anything Wrong Why Wont The Judges Listen! :([/quote]
Are you saying Meani made the phone calls 'off his own bat' and no-one else knew about it?
[/LEFT]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Yep thats what i am basically saying! :D
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=Forza Milano]Yep thats what i am basically saying! :D[/QUOTE]
I really don't think that will cut much ice, Forza. One could argue that most of the Juve board were unaware of what the foul Moggi was getting up to, but they are all equally culpable.
Cute policy by Juve. Are they hoping that playing that particular card may have some effect on the final judgement? As a Juve fan, I am appalled at the thought that La Vecchia Signora may well find hherself in Serie C next season, but they will have deserved it if the case against them is proved.
My sympathies lie with the players, none of whom are facing any charges, and therefore must be considered the innocent vixtims of their corrupt paymasters. With all this going on, it is testament to their courage that the Azzurri are where they are in the World Cup.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
SO WHICH REFEREES WERE BRIBED?
how much did they get?
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I know that Massimo De Sanctis was 'influenced' thats why hs not refereeing at the World Cup.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=Forza Milano]I know that Massimo De Sanctis was 'influenced' thats why hs not refereeing at the World Cup.[/QUOTE]
so was he bribed? or what.
remembering that p, rossi was banned for 18 months, not for taking a bribe
but not mentioning being approached by someone!
remembering that if the Italian way of trying to prosicute was applied here in
england, jesus we would have a right state!
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
No he was locked in his room until Moggi let him out but the terms were that he would make juve win
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
the FIGC are going to be more lenient on the clubs involved with italy winning the world cup! so hope that involves no relegation for Milan!
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=giovanni]SO WHICH REFEREES WERE BRIBED?
how much did they get?[/QUOTE]
Who and how much is totally beside the point. What is indisputable is that the 4 clubs were, to greater and lesser degrees, seeking to gain advantages in a corrupt way.
FIGC must take decisive action; if that means demotion, then OK so be it; if it means that the teams also start with negative points to make up next season then fine. If all the clubs are fined hefty sums of money, then fine again. Let's not see the fact of the Azzurri winning the World Cup being used as a reason not to hit these clubs in a way that demonstrates that such behaviour will never be tolerated and others who may be like minded will take note.
What is indisputably most important is that the game is clean, that the people who run the game are clean, so that Italy will not be faced with anything like this again.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Italy will always be faced with corruption (in sport) just look at the 1982 world cup Paolo Rossi comes back from a ban from Match fixing!
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I think UEFA and FIFA will have something to say if the punishment is not pretty severe on the 4 clubs. Juve will go in C for sure and the others in B. Personally I'd have put Juve in C2 on -15 points.Do we all really believe that not one player knew about all this?! Impossible.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Well the figc were going to send Huve to serie B and The other three all stared next season on minus points! because Lazio Fiorentina and Milan havnt had direct connection Like Juve Have they have had Miner connections
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=Stuart Jones]I think UEFA and FIFA will have something to say if the punishment is not pretty severe on the 4 clubs. Juve will go in C for sure and the others in B. Personally I'd have put Juve in C2 on -15 points.Do we all really believe that not one player knew about all this?! Impossible.[/QUOTE]
listen, and i am not going to be polite either..
What are you saying? when refering to the players?
i think its best, you Keep your slanderous remarks to yourself...
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=giovanni]listen, and i am not going to be polite either..
What are you saying? when refering to the players?
i think its best, you Keep your slanderous remarks to yourself...[/QUOTE]
Sono d'accordo, Gio
Does anyone think that Moggi and others would have turned round to Cannavaro, Del Piero, Zambrotta and others and said: Hey, no worries guys, I've stitched the ref up?
Do I know what the directors of my organisation are thinking or doing? No, and I bloody well don't want to.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I agree, if only half of the allegations are true, then juve will be going down.
But serie C? cannot quite imagine 4 world cup winners and 2 finalist in their
team, being put in that situation, add to that, football is a multi million
bussiness, then the Italian FA, and uefa and fifa have to tread carefully.
REMEMBER THE BOSMAN RULING, fifa thought they coudn't loose.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
we find out tomorrow now oh i cant wait!
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Hi,
Has anyone got any news?
Has it been decided yet?
:)
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
The BBC reports it could be either this evening or tomorrow before the decision is announced. [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/5164194.stm[/url]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
The verdict - Juventus, Lazio and Fiorentina relegated to Serie B, AC Milan to stay in Serie A. Juventus to start the season on -30 points, Lazio on -7 points and Fiorentina on -12.
AC Milan will lose 15 points but will be kicked out of the Champions' League. Juventus have been stripped of their last 2 titles.
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/5164194.stm[/url]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
So be it. But this just takes the biscuit (from Yahoo Italia):
Moggi, io non colpevole di niente
(Moggi: I am not to blame for anything)
The bastard is in total denial. He has almost single-handedly ruined the club of which he was a DG, left il calcio in such a state I cannot see it recovering for a long time, but still cannot accept that he has done anything wrong. Oh, and he is sorry for the team and the fans - the hell he is.
If I had anything to do with Juve, I would be looking to see if there were any grounds at all to take Moggi to court and take him to the cleaners. It would be no more than the cretinous, treacherous little git deserves.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[LEFT]
Starting with -30 points, looks like Juve will spend 2 seasons in Serie B, at the very least. They're going to find it hard to hang on to their best players. I'll bet Vieira is wishing he'd stayed at Arsenal!
[/LEFT]
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Pages and pages in La Stampa today which I didn't have they energy to read, but apparently they are all whiter than white, it's a set up guv, altho' Juve rep did say they'd accept a lesser punishment! As ever it's the fans who suffer.
Mind you, when my team was relegated from the Premiership season before last people were taking the positive (tongue in teach) view that they might get to a few more different grounds. So Pescara and the rest it is then lads and lasses!
Whatever happens I don't think they'll get back into Europe this year. Great opportunity for some other sides.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=derekL][LEFT]
Starting with -30 points, looks like Juve will spend 2 seasons in Serie B, at the very least. They're going to find it hard to hang on to their best players. I'll bet Vieira is wishing he'd stayed at Arsenal! [/LEFT][/QUOTE]
Methinks the 'new' Juve will be built round del Piero, who has, apparently, pledged himself to the old lady.
Cannavaro for Real, Zambrotta for Chelsea, Buffon - who knows (maybe Arsenal), Vieira - back to the Premiership. Who knows about the rest.
On top of the match-rigging in Germany, and other national leagues not exactly clean (except the Premiership?) it bodes very ill for European soccer.
Deschamps is a very brave guy!!
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Juve will most prob go to Serie C because juve have to get 70 points to get 40 points. 30 to break even and then 40 to get points on the board.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=sueflauto]Pages and pages in La Stampa today which I didn't have they energy to read, but apparently they are all whiter than white, it's a set up guv, altho' Juve rep did say they'd accept a lesser punishment! As ever it's the fans who suffer.
Mind you, when my team was relegated from the Premiership season before last people were taking the positive (tongue in teach) view that they might get to a few more different grounds. So Pescara and the rest it is then lads and lasses!
Whatever happens I don't think they'll get back into Europe this year. Great opportunity for some other sides.[/QUOTE]
No to Lesser punishments - they have cheated the game for years and got theirs just deserts - OK so the fans will suffer but what off the fans that have suffered - Brescia went down by three points after loosing to Fiorentina on the finald ay of the season {deserverdely so I might add they needed no help from the ref that day} - bologna went down the same year even though they finished with a better goal average than Fiorentina - why should the feelings of the fans of the clubs who cheated be more valuable than those of the sides who were cheated ?
If they reduce the points deductions it just make sit even harder for Brescia and Bologna and the rest of Serie B who do not have th financail muscle of Fiorentina, Lazio and Juve to get into Serie A therfore doubling the punishment that the cheats put us through !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=Forza Brescia]No to Lesser punishments - they have cheated the game for years and got theirs just deserts - OK so the fans will suffer but what off the fans that have suffered - Brescia went down by three points after loosing to Fiorentina on the finald ay of the season {deserverdely so I might add they needed no help from the ref that day} - bologna went down the same year even though they finished with a better goal average than Fiorentina - why should the feelings of the fans of the clubs who cheated be more valuable than those of the sides who were cheated ?
If they reduce the points deductions it just make sit even harder for Brescia and Bologna and the rest of Serie B who do not have th financail muscle of Fiorentina, Lazio and Juve to get into Serie A therfore doubling the punishment that the cheats put us through !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1[/QUOTE]
err... who is saying that feelings of the fans of those clubs are more valuable than those of other clubs? Of course they are not. What is being said is, in effect, that the clubs really duped the fans - as well as many other people. And of course it is sad for those fans - the innocent party in all this dreadful affair.
That is somewhat different to seeing your club being relegated - by your own admission - because they deserved to. Most fans will acept that, although they sure as hell won't like the idea of playing in Serie B or the Championship.
As to Bologna being relegated instead of Fiorentina, you know it's points on the board that count. Is there any proof that the results of either match that season were the result of rigging? I don't know the scores so I would not know. Indeed I feel this argument you have put forward is something of a non sequitor and is not relevant to the actual subject.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I disagree - that season we were 2-0 up at the Rigamonti vs Juve at Half time when the ref and linesman decided to take action giving Juve dubious decision after dubious decision - end result 2-3 Juve.
In the end those three points were the difference between staying up and going down - no qualms about the result in Fiorentina - we were so bad that day that the ref didn't need to do anything to help - I also don't blame Juve, Fiorentina, Milan or Lazio for our demise that is purely down to our chairman Corioni
My point merely was that everyone is going on about fairness to the fans and why should the supporters of Juve, Lazio et al suffer for the actions of those who duped football - but are forgetting that other sides supporters paid a far bigger price.
If Juve et al are guilty and the decision is that they are - then the sentence should be strong and hard and there should be no sympathy for the fans, because at the end of the day the fans of Juve et al had no sympathy for those clubs who were cheated by this whole affair.
Simple relegation to Serie B for these 4 clubs would just be a double kick in the teeth to sides like Brescia and Bologna because in the end the financial might of Juve et al will mean that they can easily build squads capable of taking them straight back up therefore condemning the small sides to yet another season in Serie B, Which in the case of Bologna and Brescia means they dick us twice !!!! Once when there corruption assisted in our relegation and then again by reducing our chances of promotion.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=Forza Brescia]I disagree - that season we were 2-0 up at the Rigamonti vs Juve at Half time when the ref and linesman decided to take action giving Juve dubious decision after dubious decision - end result 2-3 Juve.
In the end those three points were the difference between staying up and going down - no qualms about the result in Fiorentina - we were so bad that day that the ref didn't need to do anything to help - I also don't blame Juve, Fiorentina, Milan or Lazio for our demise that is purely down to our chairman Corioni
My point merely was that everyone is going on about fairness to the fans and why should the supporters of Juve, Lazio et al suffer for the actions of those who duped football - but are forgetting that other sides supporters paid a far bigger price.
If Juve et al are guilty and the decision is that they are - then the sentence should be strong and hard and there should be no sympathy for the fans, because at the end of the day the fans of Juve et al had no sympathy for those clubs who were cheated by this whole affair.
Simple relegation to Serie B for these 4 clubs would just be a double kick in the teeth to sides like Brescia and Bologna because in the end the financial might of Juve et al will mean that they can easily build squads capable of taking them straight back up therefore condemning the small sides to yet another season in Serie B, Which in the case of Bologna and Brescia means they dick us twice !!!! Once when there corruption assisted in our relegation and then again by reducing our chances of promotion.[/QUOTE]
what has happened in serie A, does not mean that they have caught ALL
the teams that use these underhand tactics, no not at all.
These were the easiest prosicutions.
don't kid yourself, its something powerfull Italians have been doing for
centuries.
this MAY bring an end to this practice, so they will have to think something
new up....
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
theres still could be sum more to follow with the appeals starting on the 22nd of july.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=Forza Milano]theres still could be sum more to follow with the appeals starting on the 22nd of july.[/QUOTE]
Yuo're right. I would not take a risk on a harsher punishment myself, which is what may well happen if the prosecutor finally gets his way. But then I'm risk-averse English!!!
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=Peter Head]Yuo're right. I would not take a risk on a harsher punishment myself, which is what may well happen if the prosecutor finally gets his way. But then I'm risk-averse English!!![/QUOTE]
harsher punishment?
they will end up with a 15 piont deduction and not 30 [juve].
You see they have been double punished, which no legal court will accept.
i.e
had they been sent down to serie C, the chances are they would be
promoted at the end of the season.
but being relegated to serie B, and having a massive 30 piont deduction too,
means they could argue that they could indeed end the season relegated
to serie C.
MEANING THIS PUNISHMENT IS ACTUALLY HARSHER THAN BEING RELEGATED
TO SERIE C.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Gio, I hear what you say, and I can but only agree.
All I was doing was reporting what I'd read somewhere - that any failed appeal could lead to further punishment. Like you, I question whether such further punitive action would be defensible legally, but then I know nothing of Italian law, even less in fact than I do of English law, particularly as so much of it emanates from Brussels - but that's another story.
We'll just have to see what happens.....
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Also find it a bit ridiculous that some of Juve's stars wnat to stay - especially Buffon. Think he's saying the honourable thing now but deep down he knows he'll move on. 2 or 3 seasons in Serie B is not good when he's at his prime-he'll never get those years back and will regret it in my opinion.Serie B is a Very poor standard - his game can only suffer.The others (bar Del Piero) will go in the next 3 weeks in my opinion.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I have read this morning that all the players are jumping ship 2 of juve's have signed up for Real.
Dawn.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=Peter Head]Gio, I hear what you say, and I can but only agree.
All I was doing was reporting what I'd read somewhere - that any failed appeal could lead to further punishment. Like you, I question whether such further punitive action would be defensible legally, but then I know nothing of Italian law, even less in fact than I do of English law, particularly as so much of it emanates from Brussels - but that's another story.
We'll just have to see what happens.....[/QUOTE]
Yes, i too know little about the law, either law.
but the bossman rule set one hell of a precidence, even though i did not
totally agree with it, it gave players such power, and therefore i am guessing
that this double punishment so to speak is a little too over the top.
have you herd the latest. ZZ gets 3 match ban!!!!!!!
matta gets 2???
Really makes you think what goes through the heads of those at fifa!
firstly it means violent conduct is ONLY marginally worse than verbal obuse!!
also its crazy that you ban someone for 3 games who has retired!
and you ban the other for 2 who has not retired!!!
Now that is crazy.........no stupid... no incompetence..
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=giovanni]have you herd the latest. ZZ gets 3 match ban!!!!!!!
matta gets 2???
Really makes you think what goes through the heads of those at fifa!
firstly it means violent conduct is ONLY marginally worse than verbal obuse!!
also its crazy that you ban someone for 3 games who has retired!
and you ban the other for 2 who has not retired!!!
Now that is crazy.........no stupid... no incompetence..[/QUOTE]
Gio, it really would not have mattered how many matches they banned Zizou for, now would it? Zidane has agreed to do community service, which is not the bunch of grapes people think it is. As for Materazzi, I think a 2 match ban is fair if he admitted insulting Zizou, using insulting language etc.
Players must expect to get banned for that. After all, what is the alternative? Total anarchy? Well, perhaps we're not too far away from that as it is, with the players having far too much power - thanks, as you say, to Bosman. But it's also thanks to the G14 group of leading European clubs, who really are like the 3 monkeys - see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil - and who would quite happily pauper the game in their own greedy pursuit of power.
And if the game at lower levels becomes paupered, if the smaller clubs (where many of today's top talent started their careers) went to the wall, then, notwithstanding the Academies that most big clubs have, the game will die a long, slow, painful death. Even I, whose favourite sport is not football, would not want to see that happen.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=Peter Head]Gio, it really would not have mattered how many matches they banned Zizou for, now would it? Zidane has agreed to do community service, which is not the bunch of grapes people think it is. As for Materazzi, I think a 2 match ban is fair if he admitted insulting Zizou, using insulting language etc.
Players must expect to get banned for that. After all, what is the alternative? Total anarchy? Well, perhaps we're not too far away from that as it is, with the players having far too much power - thanks, as you say, to Bosman. But it's also thanks to the G14 group of leading European clubs, who really are like the 3 monkeys - see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil - and who would quite happily pauper the game in their own greedy pursuit of power.
And if the game at lower levels becomes paupered, if the smaller clubs (where many of today's top talent started their careers) went to the wall, then, notwithstanding the Academies that most big clubs have, the game will die a long, slow, painful death. Even I, whose favourite sport is not football, would not want to see that happen.[/QUOTE]
i am not the big football fan, many may feel i am, not anymore, not for a long
time anyway.
The way you have discribed things about football, "slow painfull death" is the
way i feel, is a better option than the one before us.
I still remember playing football as a kid, and i still remember our headmaster
[can i say that rather than head teacher?]being proud that his small
rc comp school had 4 players playing for the county under 14s.
I also still remember his reaction when told that non of us actually played
for the school team!
His reaction was, anybody playing football for anyother team, will be barred
from doing so, if they do not represent the school first!
so whats my piont?
move on 28 years and the same school now has a few boys in these football
academies. so, so these boys NEVER represent their schools! too risky!
not allowed!.
To me this is a sport thats going too far. its not good for the sport and
its not good for the society.
bring back the old days
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
I saw that Juve have lost their appeal against relegation.......it's official..... they're in Serie B!
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[QUOTE=tuscanhills]I saw that Juve have lost their appeal against relegation.......it's official..... they're in Serie B![/QUOTE]
not yet! so don't start celebrating yet.
there is still one sport and then the civil courts that they will try to use.
relegation to serie b, seemed fair to me, but as the other two have now been
allowed to stay in serie A!
ANYTHING IS NOW POSSIBLE.
Don't think about it as a sport, but as a multi million euro bussiness,and when
you use that context, the fact that ONE man seems to be guilty of a crime,
then you should be able to see that juve have every right to challenge the
decission.
Never thought that they could stay in serie A, from a sporting piont of view,
but the Italian FA seem to have f..ked up big time, so the door is ajar.
But isn't it all about football having become big business - but big business conducted much more "in the public eye", which results in these pesky whistle blowers (otherwise known as tifosi) asking awkward questions?
I think that shenanigans like the current Juve activities have always gone on, not to be applauded, but perhaps not as overtly self serving as the Gaucci position. Corporate crime, rather than personal crime?? No better - but nobody is an amateur any more in any "sport".